World Cup 2022 thread (football only)

[Lanterne Rouge]

10 minutes ago, italian dave said:

It’s a great summary, it’s hard to accept. But not entirely depressing because there’s cause for hope now, I feel. England is a good decade behind France in developing players, skills, a style,etc with the national team in mind. France started doing it in the late 1990s (when they weren’t that great at international level) but we only started a decade or so ago. And there’s plenty of evidence we’re headed in the right direction. 

Other countries too are behind England in their progress - Germany with their ageing team spring to mind along with Argentina, Belgium and, to a certain extent, Brazil and Portugal. The Netherlands are a bit of a puzzle and I don`t know enough about Italy TBH.

The one that I think do have their best years in front of them though is Spain.

[2015]

21 minutes ago, italian dave said:

It’s a great summary, it’s hard to accept. But not entirely depressing because there’s cause for hope now, I feel. England is a good decade behind France in developing players, skills, a style,etc with the national team in mind. France started doing it in the late 1990s (when they weren’t that great at international level) but we only started a decade or so ago. And there’s plenty of evidence we’re headed in the right direction. 

The French have majorly benefitted from its best players playing abroad and getting a taste of different styles of football.  Before 1998 a Major World Cup win seemed beyond them unlike Germany or Italy. The French have adopted the old Italian style of winning matches without necessarily having to dominate the other side, this is on the back of most of their players in the 90s playing in Serie A and the influence that the Italian game gave the French players that played there. Ever since France have generally (apart from Domenech era) been hard to beat and very defensive which in major tournaments tends to take you a long way. 

[Davefevs]

Just now, 2015 said:

The French have majorly benefitted from its best players playing abroad and getting a taste of different styles of football.  Before 1998 a Major World Cup win seemed beyond them unlike Germany or Italy. The French have adopted the old Italian style of winning matches without necessarily having to dominate the other side, this is on the back of most of their players in the 90s playing in Serie A and the influence that the Italian game gave the French players that played there. Ever since France have generally (apart from Domenech era) been hard to beat and very defensive which in major tournaments tends to take you a long way. 

The far too small in numbers English players who’ve gone abroad in my lifetime, seem to be better for it.

[Lanterne Rouge]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

The far too small in numbers English players who’ve gone abroad in my lifetime, seem to be better for it.

This is the trouble with the Premier League having all the money IMO.

[Red-Robbo]

18 minutes ago, Lanterne Rouge said:

The one that I think do have their best years in front of them though is Spain.

 

Not to mention the so-called 'emerging nations'. Morocco's performance shows that many have already 'emerged'.

The genie ain't going back in the lamp, and I reckon we'll see a non-European/South American world cup winner before long.  It isn't unconceivable that it'll be this year.  

[2015]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

The far too small in numbers English players who’ve gone abroad in my lifetime, seem to be better for it.

Absolutely. McManaman for example was a massive hit for Real Madrid and should have had much more England caps. 

Paul Ince came back a much better international player for England after his spell at Inter Milan in my opinion.

Even if you look at Chris Smalling, who has been exceptional for Roma in the last year or so and I think Southgate might have missed a trick there with his experience in the squad.

There just aren't enough English players who go and play abroad in my opinion still. Is it to do with the language? Do our players feel that Europe is the other side of the World as we are just an island? Or do the players just not want to test themselves abroad? 

[EstoniaTallinnRed]

7 hours ago, Fordy62 said:

My mate summed it up: “bring on a bloke who’s more concerned about how many of his watches were nicked.”

I think he was more worried about the state of his family!

[italian dave]

9 minutes ago, 2015 said:

The French have majorly benefitted from its best players playing abroad and getting a taste of different styles of football.  Before 1998 a Major World Cup win seemed beyond them unlike Germany or Italy. The French have adopted the old Italian style of winning matches without necessarily having to dominate the other side, this is on the back of most of their players in the 90s playing in Serie A and the influence that the Italian game gave the French players that played there. Ever since France have generally (apart from Domenech era) been hard to beat and very defensive which in major tournaments tends to take you a long way. 

Yes, I think that’s a really good point, - and something English players, and the England set up, would really benefit from.

Part of me wonders why it doesn’t happen more: with the Premier League attracting so much foreign talent you’d have thought younger English players might see opportunities further afield. It just seems to happen so rarely. Maybe it’s money. 

The French set up their equivalent of St George’s Park years before we did. That must have helped. As it’s helping us now. It encourages players to learn and understand the national team ethos, style, set up etc. It gives consistency, so that whether you’re playing abroad (Bellingham), whether you’re getting regular games for your club (Phillips), you’re still part of that England set up. 

[EstoniaTallinnRed]

4 hours ago, Red-Robbo said:

Made the mistake of watching it in Shepton Mallet. Found myself surrounded by losers in blue-and-white clowns' outfits.

Precisely why Shepton is such a stronghold of Gassery, is unclear. It's nowhere near Gloucestershire. I put it down to being the most depressing town in the Mendips.

A depressing night all round. And a depressing hangover now. 

Perhaps their descendants were all released from the jail there after serving sentences for punching horses.

[Bris Red]

41 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

The far too small in numbers English players who’ve gone abroad in my lifetime, seem to be better for it.

100%. I really hope Bellingham stays away from the premier league as i feel he will be better for it. I hope he goes to Real Madrid over Liverpool or Man City.

[ExiledAjax]

51 minutes ago, 2015 said:

Even if you look at Chris Smalling, who has been exceptional for Roma in the last year or so and I think Southgate might have missed a trick there with his experience in the squad.

There just aren't enough English players who go and play abroad in my opinion still.

But the England coaching set up has to reward players that do go abroad. You mention Smalling, but Abraham has set records in Serie A and been rewarded with a bit part role in the England set up.

Bellingham has been picked whilst abroad, but he's different gravy. 

The evidence, the pathway, the record, the action all suggest that unless you are either a) truly exceptional (Bellingham) or b) already established in the England set up (Trippier), you need to play in the Prem to get picked. If you play abroad then you need to be one of those two things.

So it's a two sided coin. A chicken and egg scenario perhaps. Both the players and the coaches need to be willing to experiment.

[Super]

42 minutes ago, Bris Red said:

100%. I really hope Bellingham stays away from the premier league as i feel he will be better for it. I hope he goes to Real Madrid over Liverpool or Man City.

Liverpool seem very confident on him. 

[Lew-T]

It still hurts. We were the better side throughout last night, and the French goals came out of nothing really. Few of us said last night whoever wins this, will go on to win the tournament.

Once again it didn’t go our way. 

[Bris Red]

1 hour ago, ExiledAjax said:

But the England coaching set up has to reward players that do go abroad. You mention Smalling, but Abraham has set records in Serie A and been rewarded with a bit part role in the England set up.

Bellingham has been picked whilst abroad, but he's different gravy. 

The evidence, the pathway, the record, the action all suggest that unless you are either a) truly exceptional (Bellingham) or b) already established in the England set up (Trippier), you need to play in the Prem to get picked. If you play abroad then you need to be one of those two things.

So it's a two sided coin. A chicken and egg scenario perhaps. Both the players and the coaches need to be willing to experiment.

I agree with a lot of what you say. You only have to look at Southgate’s obsession with picking Connor Coady for example.

Now im not saying Coady isn’t a decent centre half but is he really international level?

Should he really be getting a look in when you have Tomori playing Champions league football regularly and getting into the Serie A team of the year, and Smalling again who is again regularly playing in Europe  (winning the conference league with Roma last season) over a very average Premier League player not playing in Europe and nowhere near the team of the year in the Prem.

I think one or both of Tomori or Smalling would have been included in every one of the top countries world cup squads IMo yet Southgate overlooked them, madness.

Edited December 11, 2022 by Bris Red

[ExiledAjax]

37 minutes ago, Bris Red said:

I agree with a lot of what you say. You only have to look at Southgate’s obsession with picking Connor Coady for example.

Now im not saying Coady isn’t a decent centre half but is he really international level?

Should he really be getting a look in when you have Tomori playing Champions league football regularly and getting into the Serie A team of the year, and Smalling again who is again regularly playing in Europe  (winning the conference league with Roma last season) over a very average Premier League player not playing in Europe and nowhere near the team of the year in the Prem.

I think one or both of Tomori or Smalling would have been included in every one of the top countries world cup squads IMo yet Southgate overlooked them, madness.

Thanks. I agree in so far as there needs to be a pathway for foreign-based players to get into the squad. One that doesn't require them to be either an existing Southgate favourite or a generational talent.

So let's say I am Ivan Toney, or James Maddison, or Marc Guehi, and I fancy getting into the Euro 2024 squad. I get an offer in the summer to go and play for...let's say Sevilla, or Lyon, or Napoli. It's more money, it's a fun foreign league, it's a chance to develop. But, my agent points me at Tomori, or Abraham, or Smalling and says "if you want to be picked for Germany '24 then you will have to play twice as well abroad as you will at Brentford, Palace or Leicester".

I probably stay playing in the Prem.

Now that's not bad, as the Prem is a very good, possibly even the best, league in terms of average player standard. But, if what we want is to develop a team that can win a tournament through bringing in a diverse footballing experience, it doesn't encourage me to go abroad.

Edited December 11, 2022 by ExiledAjax

[spudski]

Watching the WC it dawned on me, that much of ' European' football has reached some sort of pinnacle.

It's often laborious.

You can read the game and pretty much know where the ball is going to go. Where the players will position themselves. It's become like chess...certain moves ingrained...where they know it's 'safe'.

This happens both in defence and offence.

The teams playing less predictable football, more intensive, more individuality/ expression, willing to take risk, are often getting rewarded.

Lesser skilled players are doing this and outwitting higher skilled players, who are playing to a safe ingrained system.

I can see a shift in how football will be played in the not so distant future.

What saddens me, is that IMO, we have players in the England set up, that if given more freedom to express themselves, and do something out of the norm, then we could have taken advantage.

We played far to safe. 

 

[2015]

11 minutes ago, spudski said:

Watching the WC it dawned on me, that much of ' European' football has reached some sort of pinnacle.

It's often laborious.

You can read the game and pretty much know where the ball is going to go. Where the players will position themselves. It's become like chess...certain moves ingrained...where they know it's 'safe'.

This happens both in defence and offence.

The teams playing less predictable football, more intensive, more individuality/ expression, willing to take risk, are often getting rewarded.

Lesser skilled players are doing this and outwitting higher skilled players, who are playing to a safe ingrained system.

I can see a shift in how football will be played in the not so distant future.

What saddens me, is that IMO, we have players in the England set up, that if given more freedom to express themselves, and do something out of the norm, then we could have taken advantage.

We played far to safe. 

 

Yep. Said this before a few weeks ago.

As for last night, the game was crying out for some of England's more unpredictable players to come on and do something different (Grealish, Maddison, Trent) but they were ignored really. Instead the safe options in Mount and Sterling were brought on.

16 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Thanks. I agree in so far as there needs to be a pathway for foreign-based players to get into the squad. One that doesn't require them to be either an existing Southgate favourite or a generational talent.

So let's say I am Ivan Toney, or James Maddison, or Marc Guehi, and I fancy getting into the Euro 2024 squad. I get an offer in the summer to go and play for...let's say Sevilla, or Lyon, or Napoli. It's more money, it's a fun foreign league, it's a chance to develop. But, my agent points me at Tomori, or Abraham, or Smalling and says "if you want to be picked for Germany '24 then you will have to play twice as well abroad as you will at Brentford, Palace or Leicester".

I probably stay playing in the Prem.

Now that's not bad, as the Prem is a very good, possibly even the best, league in terms of average player standard. But, if what we want is to develop a team that can win a tournament through bringing in a diverse footballing experience, it doesn't encourage me to go abroad.

I do wonder if the FA are in Southgate's ear about using players who are playing abroad? Because I also find it hard to believe that the likes of Coady and Mings have regularly got picked over the likes of Tomori and Smalling. 

[Bristol Oil Services]

12 hours ago, Port Said Red said:

They did as much as they could without making it obvious, I am pretty sure it's a Messi V Mbappe final they want for the reasons given by @Mr Popodopolous. Despite being within 5 yards of the Mount penalty, he wasn't going to give it. VAR had to give it, to not give it would have raised suspicion higher. If Kane had scored, I am convinced there would have been a very dubious pro France decision further down the line. 

It's all arranged. At the final, Messi, Modric and a tearful, but wise, Ronaldo, will enter the stadium on camels, bearing gifts of gold, frankincense and Budweiser, following a bright, Iranian drone light way up in the desert sky, France will triumph and the Three Old Gits will crown Mbappe King of Football, as they are showered by a ticer tape shower of a billion dirty dollar bills. Putin will then have every non-Russian boy in the world slaughtered so they have half a chance of qualifying, and 3,000 Gas will be locked out of the final, with Gianni Infantino telling them to **** off back to League One. 

[Super]

1 hour ago, Lew-T said:

It still hurts. We were the better side throughout last night, and the French goals came out of nothing really. Few of us said last night whoever wins this, will go on to win the tournament.

Once again it didn’t go our way. 

I actually don't feel too bad obviously disappointed but I can handle going out playing well, What I couldn't handle was the way we went out against Iceland. 

[BigTone]

27 minutes ago, Bristol Oil Services said:

It's all arranged. At the final, Messi, Modric and a tearful, but wise, Ronaldo, will enter the stadium on camels, bearing gifts of gold, frankincense and Budweiser, following a bright, Iranian drone light way up in the desert sky, France will triumph and the Three Old Gits will crown Mbappe King of Football, as they are showered by a ticer tape shower of a billion dirty dollar bills. Putin will then have every non-Russian boy in the world slaughtered so they have half a chance of qualifying, and 3,000 Gas will be locked out of the final, with Gianni Infantino telling them to **** off back to League One. 

You are obviously ITK. Some of the regular ITK' ers on here will be feeling a tad uneasy right now at your level of ITK-ness. However, as a means of self preservation they will respond with a conspiracy theory of some kind fuelled by a contact they have who is ITK.

Edited December 11, 2022 by BigTone

[Northern Red]

Smalling was dropped by Southgate almost as soon as he got the job, despite still being a regular starter in the Man Utd team at that point.

[W-S-M Seagull]

13 hours ago, downendcity said:

You'd think he had missed a lot of training recently and was suffering the after effects of return flights back to the UK.

Yea it's a 10 hour flight each way. Different time zones, different climates. Bound to take it's toll on the body. 

Just felt we should have either kept Saka on or brought someone else on rather than playing a player who through no fault of his own, wasn't up to the required fitness. 

[W-S-M Seagull]

9 hours ago, Super said:

Liverpool seem very confident on him. 

Oh no Liverpool fans would never accept their club spending that sort of money on players surely? 

Very much doubt their owners would be looking to spend that sort of money whilst they're trying to sell the club. 

It's either City, Chelsea or Real imo. 

[AshtonGreat]

18 hours ago, petehinton said:

Perfect summation, but probably a hard to accept pill to swallow for many a fair weather. 

France’s default level of courage? What does that actually mean?

[Super]

6 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Oh no Liverpool fans would never accept their club spending that sort of money on players surely? 

Very much doubt their owners would be looking to spend that sort of money whilst they're trying to sell the club. 

It's either City, Chelsea or Real imo. 

He apparently wants to go to Liverpool. I do agree about the price though and his price has probably gone up again after this WC.

[ExiledAjax]

8 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

France’s default level of courage? What does that actually mean?

My reading of it is that it's quite a long-winded way of saying "success breeds success". He's saying, in flowery journalistic language, that France won because they won the moments, and they won the moments because they knew they would, and they knew they would because they've done it before and it is just what they do.

England are getting there but we need that one win, that little bit of luck that just gets us that trophy, and gives us that innate, concrete knowledge that we are good. Not belief, knowledge.

[MarcusX]

16 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

But the England coaching set up has to reward players that do go abroad. You mention Smalling, but Abraham has set records in Serie A and been rewarded with a bit part role in the England set up.

Bellingham has been picked whilst abroad, but he's different gravy. 

The evidence, the pathway, the record, the action all suggest that unless you are either a) truly exceptional (Bellingham) or b) already established in the England set up (Trippier), you need to play in the Prem to get picked. If you play abroad then you need to be one of those two things.

So it's a two sided coin. A chicken and egg scenario perhaps. Both the players and the coaches need to be willing to experiment.

I disagree, Tammy has his chances in the England squad. One can only conclude that he hasn’t impressed either on the pitch or off it. 
 

As for players going abroad, I’d imagine it’s also a case that the large majority of young lads grow up dreaming of playing in the Premier League so they’ll always chose that. Not forgetting that those teams abroad need to show an interest in players here also.

[AshtonGreat]

4 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

My reading of it is that it's quite a long-winded way of saying "success breeds success". He's saying, in flowery journalistic language, that France won because they won the moments, and they won the moments because they knew they would, and they knew they would because they've done it before and it is just what they do.

England are getting there but we need that one win, that little bit of luck that just gets us that trophy, and gives us that innate, concrete knowledge that we are good. Not belief, knowledge.

That's a fair reading of it. I still find it odd the way he's painted France and some kind of footballing superpower, when they achieved very little at the Euros last year

Edited December 12, 2022 by AshtonGreat

[W-S-M Seagull]

2 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

My reading of it is that it's quite a long-winded way of saying "success breeds success". He's saying, in flowery journalistic language, that France won because they won the moments, and they won the moments because they knew they would, and they knew they would because they've done it before and it is just what they do.

England are getting there but we need that one win, that little bit of luck that just gets us that trophy, and gives us that innate, concrete knowledge that we are good. Not belief, knowledge.

We seem to be in the same sort of situation as Man City are with the Champions league. 

France are like Real Madrid. They just somehow find a way to win. 

England are like City in the Champions league, always just falling short. 

[MarcusX]

7 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Yea it's a 10 hour flight each way. Different time zones, different climates. Bound to take it's toll on the body. 

Just felt we should have either kept Saka on or brought someone else on rather than playing a player who through no fault of his own, wasn't up to the required fitness. 

Saka was done, he ran himself into the ground (and took some kickings) he had to come off. I agree Sterling was the wrong choose though as was Mount