David Baddiel and Jason Lee

[Tinmans Love Child]

https://youtu.be/he6Nq2lWLJ0

Really interesting discussion between Jason Lee and David Baddiel on the infamous (and quite frankly racist) sketches from Fantasy Football League back in the 90's.  Anyone around at the time will no doubt remember the abuse Jason Lee got on the programme because of his dreadlocks, the subsequent chants about his hair, which from memory impacted his form and he dropped down the leagues.  

When you look back on the sketches now with Baddiel having a black face etc its quite surprising it was ever allowed on TV at all, even in the 90's, but there was definitely a culture at that time of everything being ok as long as you said it was banter.  I used to watch the show a lot as a teenager and didn't really think about it at the time, but looking back most of the jokes seemed to be ripping anyone in football who was deemed ugly or weird by Skinner and Baddiel.

David Baddiel is doing a new doc on anti semitism so I guess he needed to address the uncomfortable truth regarding Jason Lee as part of this, shame it took him all this time to actually apologies!

[frenchred]

24 minutes ago, Tinmans Love Child said:

https://youtu.be/he6Nq2lWLJ0

Really interesting discussion between Jason Lee and David Baddiel on the infamous (and quite frankly racist) sketches from Fantasy Football League back in the 90's.  Anyone around at the time will no doubt remember the abuse Jason Lee got on the programme because of his dreadlocks, the subsequent chants about his hair, which from memory impacted his form and he dropped down the leagues.  

When you look back on the sketches now with Baddiel having a black face etc its quite surprising it was ever allowed on TV at all, even in the 90's, but there was definitely a culture at that time of everything being ok as long as you said it was banter.  I used to watch the show a lot as a teenager and didn't really think about it at the time, but looking back most of the jokes seemed to be ripping anyone in football who was deemed ugly or weird by Skinner and Baddiel.

David Baddiel is doing a new doc on anti semitism so I guess he needed to address the uncomfortable truth regarding Jason Lee as part of this, shame it took him all this time to actually apologies!

Absolute bollocks regarding Jason Lee, it was not the fact he had dreadlocks it was that he shaped them in the form of a pineapple! Are we now saying that society views pineapples as racist?

Did you see him play? He tumbled down the league's because basically he was shit!

[Spike]

I watched his documentary about anti semitism and he spoke to Jason Lee on there, it was really interesting and I think having been targeted its really made Baddiel realise how poor it was and how much it affected Jason Lee. 

I think it takes balls for him to essentially lown up to his racist actions even if it want his intention. There is a good amount of healing done in that segment I think and much like many others who watched the show I didn't see the harm in it at the time, probably because I was young and noone taught me otherwise. Looking back at it now it really was in poor taste. 

[Tinmans Love Child]

2 minutes ago, frenchred said:

Absolute bollocks regarding Jason Lee, it was not the fact he had dreadlocks it was that he shaped them in the form of a pineapple! Are we now saying that society views pineapples as racist?

Did you see him play? He tumbled down the league's because basically he was shit!

With all due respect, Jason Lee tied up his dreadlocks when playing football, he didn't deliberately shape them into a pineapple shaped form.  I assume by your rationale it's fair game to chant about Pineapples to Semenyo as well?  

Either way, there is a symbolism to wearing dreadlocks, and for a comedian to black face and make fun of this is wrong, as David Baddiel admits.

I recommend watching the video

[REDOXO]

6 minutes ago, frenchred said:

Absolute bollocks regarding Jason Lee, it was not the fact he had dreadlocks it was that he shaped them in the form of a pineapple! Are we now saying that society views pineapples as racist?

Did you see him play? He tumbled down the league's because basically he was shit!

If he was any color you like but had a pineapple shaped hair do then he would have caught the same flack. 
 
Is Haircutism still a problem? 
 

A comic Apologizing to a black fella for having the piss taken out of him over a haircut 30 years ago, on the basis of newly perceived racism smacks of free advertising for a show about antisemitism, by a bloke who was never really that funny!
 

Even Spitting Image had a Badiel puppet retelling the same joke!

[frenchred]

7 minutes ago, Tinmans Love Child said:

With all due respect, Jason Lee tied up his dreadlocks when playing football, he didn't deliberately shape them into a pineapple shaped form.  I assume by your rationale it's fair game to chant about Pineapples to Semenyo as well?  

Either way, there is a symbolism to wearing dreadlocks, and for a comedian to black face and make fun of this is wrong, as David Baddiel admits.

I recommend watching the video

Yep, I get all that my post was more about the reception he got frommfansnand his football ability. I never watched the show in its prime as I just didn't find baddiel and skinner funny, and still don't!

Take your point though

[Tinmans Love Child]

9 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

If he was any color you like but had a pineapple shaped hair do then he would have caught the same flack. 
 
Is Haircutism still a problem? 
 

A comic Apologizing to a black fella for having the piss taken out of him over a haircut 30 years ago, on the basis of newly perceived racism smacks of free advertising for a show about antisemitism, by a bloke who was never really that funny!
 

Even Spitting Image had a Badiel puppet retelling the same joke!

I agree that the apology now seems to be because Baddiel is making a programme about racism, however as mentioned above, wearing dreadlocks isn't just a hair cut and shouldn't be trivialised like that.  

I also don't think this is newly perceived racism or cancel culture or wokism etc this sketch was no different to what the Black and White Minstrel Show did which went off air in the late 70's.

[Port Said Red]

I watched this the other day and I thought for a minute that Lee wasn't going to accept his apology. Baddiel said that he had apologised on TV, social media and in print several times, but had never apologised to him in person. Lee's reaction was "so my question is, why has it taken you 25 years?" Baddiel admitted that was equally poor on his part and that it was partly due to embarrassment and that it was only in recent years that he had come to realise how bad his behaviour had been. Lee seemed to accept this and also that he realised that he felt that he had reacted badly at the time, and shouldn't have let it get to him to the point it affected his career.

[Red-Robbo]

39 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

If he was any color you like but had a pineapple shaped hair do then he would have caught the same flack. 
 
Is Haircutism still a problem? 
 

A comic Apologizing to a black fella for having the piss taken out of him over a haircut 30 years ago, on the basis of newly perceived racism smacks of free advertising for a show about antisemitism, by a bloke who was never really that funny!
 

Even Spitting Image had a Badiel puppet retelling the same joke!

 

It's an interesting point. We basically sing a song about Massengo because of his unusual haircut, but it's obviously affectionate.

It could be argued the "you've got a pineapple on your head" chant - which was not invented by Skinner & Baddiel - gave extra prominence to a bang average player. It seems a strange thing to be obsessing about decades later, when doubtless there would have been many more unpleasant chants directed at him - and at loads of other players.

Where the sketch stepped outside 21st Century norms was in having a white bloke blacking up. We've had a long discussion on this on Otib, and I think most people now realise why this is not a good idea and have accepted it and moved on. 

[REDOXO]

30 minutes ago, Tinmans Love Child said:

I agree that the apology now seems to be because Baddiel is making a programme about racism, however as mentioned above, wearing dreadlocks isn't just a hair cut and shouldn't be trivialised like that.  

I also don't think this is newly perceived racism or cancel culture or wokism etc this sketch was no different to what the Black and White Minstrel Show did which went off air in the late 70's.

It wasn’t the dreads though was it, it was the way they were tied/bunched. At that time most of my mates in South London either had them or were in the process of growing them.
 

The blacking up went to far of course, lampooning like that just highlighted what a crap comic Badiel was and probably still is 
 

The blackand white minstrel show was part of a tv culture that existed through the 60s 70s 80s followed by Love thy neighbor, the original till death us do part (Warren Mitchell being famously Jewish, some of his pontifications on the subject are good reading and if they are not part of Badiel’s show bloody well should be) on the busses and various tv shows characterized negatively black people in this country. (Although the lampooning was often at the expense of the racist white guy) However after Brixton St Paul’s etc etc etc there was a change in the tv culture. 

7 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

It's an interesting point. We basically sing a song about Massengo because of his unusual haircut, but it's obviously affectionate.

It could be argued the "you've got a pineapple on your head" chant - which was not invented by Skinner & Baddiel - gave extra prominence to a bang average player. It seems a strange thing to be obsessing about decades later, when doubtless there would have been many more unpleasant chants directed at him - and at loads of other players.

Where the sketch stepped outside 21st Century norms was in having a white bloke blacking up. We've had a long discussion on this on Otib, and I think most people now realise why this is not a good idea and have accepted it and moved on. 

Yes I agree. 
 

I remember the Forest manager (Frank Clarke I think) getting really shirty about it, characterizing Badiel in particular and Skinner as a couple of middle class fops, with limited talent. Which is not far off the mark for Badiel. 

[Ska Junkie]

1 hour ago, Tinmans Love Child said:

With all due respect, Jason Lee tied up his dreadlocks when playing football, he didn't deliberately shape them into a pineapple shaped form.  I assume by your rationale it's fair game to chant about Pineapples to Semenyo as well?  

Either way, there is a symbolism to wearing dreadlocks, and for a comedian to black face and make fun of this is wrong, as David Baddiel admits.

I recommend watching the video

Different era tbh TLC and wouldn't be allowed now. 

Go back a bit further and the black and white minstrels were prime time viewing and everyone of them painted their faces.

 Is it the fact people are less tolerant now or are the looking to be offended (not aimed at you)? I know which I believe.

To give another example, as a kid, I loved 'love thy neighbour'. Imagine that on Tele today plus, the mighty only fools and horses would struggle to get on prime TV nowadays due to 'potentially offensive content'. My generation just found these programs funny and never even thought they were naughty at all.

Edited November 28, 2022 by Ska Junkie

[IAmNick]

27 minutes ago, Ska Junkie said:

My generation just found these programs funny and never even thought they were naughty at all.

That's almost certainly because you weren't the one's being "targeted" / made fun of by them in almost all cases. Most of them were cases of punching down at easy targets - gay people, black people, whatever.

It's usually pretty easy to dismiss something when you're not the butt of the joke.

[Ska Junkie]

2 minutes ago, IAmNick said:

That's almost certainly because you weren't the one's being "targeted" / made fun of by them in almost all cases. Most of them were cases of punching down at easy targets - gay people, black people, whatever.

It's usually pretty easy to dismiss something when you're not the butt of the joke.

Could be the case Nick but as a youngster at the time I didn't know.

In retort, the black and white minstrels were very, very popular back in the day, they were on everything!

[MarcusX]

2 hours ago, Spike said:

I watched his documentary about anti semitism and he spoke to Jason Lee on there, it was really interesting and I think having been targeted its really made Baddiel realise how poor it was and how much it affected Jason Lee. 

I think it takes balls for him to essentially lown up to his racist actions even if it want his intention. There is a good amount of healing done in that segment I think and much like many others who watched the show I didn't see the harm in it at the time, probably because I was young and noone taught me otherwise. Looking back at it now it really was in poor taste. 

There was a lot that went on at that time that makes for some uncomfortable viewing now. A lot of "blacking up", Craig David's been critical of Bo Selecta and the impact it had on him, some of the sketches from Little Britain and Come Fly With Me are quite cringeworthy now. Even been re-watching The Office lately (US version) and some of the stuff isn't even borderline, it's just out and out racist.

I think we've come a long way in terms of what is acceptable humour. I always thought it was odd that lots of people referred to Fammy as "Dave" too

[Red-Robbo]

4 minutes ago, MarcusX said:

I always thought it was odd that lots of people referred to Fammy as "Dave" too

Yeah, it was his last name, not his first one, that is hard to pronounce. The BBC continually calling him juju the other day is probably worse than "Dave" though...

Edited November 28, 2022 by Red-Robbo

[REDOXO]

8 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

Yeah, it was his last name, not his first one, that is hard to pronounce. The BBC continually calling him juju the other day is probably worse than "Dave" though...

Azpelicuette we just call him Dave still is the chant. Nothing racist in that it’s just a joke on a strange name to pronounce (and spell. :laugh:!)

City fans knicked it for Fam. 

[TV Tom]

1 hour ago, Ska Junkie said:

Different era tbh TLC and wouldn't be allowed now. 

Go back a bit further and the black and white minstrels were prime time viewing and everyone of them painted their faces.

 Is it the fact people are less tolerant now or are the looking to be offended (not aimed at you)? I know which I believe.

To give another example, as a kid, I loved 'love thy neighbour'. Imagine that on Tele today plus, the mighty only fools and horses would struggle to get on prime TV nowadays due to 'potentially offensive content'. My generation just found these programs funny and never even thought they were naughty at all.

Even as a kid I found love thy number truly embarrassing and just about the un-funniest thing on TV yet found Til death do us part quite funny, Rigsby in rising damp must be one of the best characters ever created and wasn’t prejudiced in who he offended.

[Fodbarmyarmy]

If you have climbed the never ending steps to the away end at the Stadium of light you will have seen some "funny" comments on the landings as you climb....one of which, near the top, declares 

"You are now the same height as Jason Lee's hair"

[ralphindevon]

32 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

Azpelicuette we just call him Dave still is the chant. Nothing racist in that it’s just a joke on a strange name to pronounce (and spell. :laugh:!)

City fans knicked it for Fam. 

In cricket a similar story with Indian cricketer Cheteshwar Pujara at Yorkshire was one of the incidents highlighted as being racist.

Jack Brooks, now at Somerset, was one of the players called out for calling him Steve.

I must admit I didn’t think for a second the Jason Lee thing was racist at the time, nor us calling Fam “Dave” but I guess it just shows your never too old to be educated.

[phantom]

4 hours ago, frenchred said:

Absolute bollocks regarding Jason Lee, it was not the fact he had dreadlocks it was that he shaped them in the form of a pineapple! Are we now saying that society views pineapples as racist?

Did you see him play? He tumbled down the league's because basically he was shit!

It is NOTHING to do with racism, it's how the constant abuse and piss taking impacted him mentally

[TV Tom]

Nick Hancock has also apologised recently for the awful stick Chadwick used to get about his looks in they think it’s all over, that used to be truly brutal

[REDOXO]

42 minutes ago, ralphindevon said:

In cricket a similar story with Indian cricketer Cheteshwar Pujara at Yorkshire was one of the incidents highlighted as being racist.

Jack Brooks, now at Somerset, was one of the players called out for calling him Steve.

I must admit I didn’t think for a second the Jason Lee thing was racist at the time, nor us calling Fam “Dave” but I guess it just shows your never too old to be educated.

I wonder what Aspilecuetta thinks. 
 

People have nick names, some they like some they don’t. However the name is not inherently raciest/Sexist/Gingest it’s the intent that matters. 

[ralphindevon]

4 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

I wonder what Aspilecuetta thinks. 
 

People have nick names, some they like some they don’t. However the name is not inherently raciest/Sexist/Gingest it’s the intent that matters. 

Yeah I can’t imagine any of the people mentioned were losing sleep about it and I’m sure they’ve all suffered worse.

As a middle aged white man I’m certainly not going to start telling a person of colour that something isn’t racist if they think it is and the Yorkshire cricket story did get me thinking how lazy and inconsiderate it might be not to learn how to pronounce a colleague’s name.

A genuine nickname or abbreviation is a bit different but I guess it all comes down to being mindful of the person’s feelings. I can remember Lois Diony seemingly finding it very funny that people, including teammates, had mentioned the pineapple on his head but you’d have to be close to him to find out if he really found it funny. I’d like to think he did. 

[Tinmans Love Child]

48 minutes ago, ralphindevon said:

Yeah I can’t imagine any of the people mentioned were losing sleep about it and I’m sure they’ve all suffered worse.

As a middle aged white man I’m certainly not going to start telling a person of colour that something isn’t racist if they think it is and the Yorkshire cricket story did get me thinking how lazy and inconsiderate it might be not to learn how to pronounce a colleague’s name.

A genuine nickname or abbreviation is a bit different but I guess it all comes down to being mindful of the person’s feelings. I can remember Lois Diony seemingly finding it very funny that people, including teammates, had mentioned the pineapple on his head but you’d have to be close to him to find out if he really found it funny. I’d like to think he did. 

I worked for one of the Big 4 consultancies and a recent example was given where the recruits from Asia were told they all looked the same, their names were too difficult to pronounce and they should just be given a number from which they can be referred too.  This was just 2 years ago!   It will have been meant as a joke etc etc but casual racism is still rife and probably still seen as just a bit of banter with no victims (like the Jason Lee thing), 

[Tinmans Love Child]

4 hours ago, Ska Junkie said:

Different era tbh TLC and wouldn't be allowed now. 

Go back a bit further and the black and white minstrels were prime time viewing and everyone of them painted their faces.

 Is it the fact people are less tolerant now or are the looking to be offended (not aimed at you)? I know which I believe.

To give another example, as a kid, I loved 'love thy neighbour'. Imagine that on Tele today plus, the mighty only fools and horses would struggle to get on prime TV nowadays due to 'potentially offensive content'. My generation just found these programs funny and never even thought they were naughty at all.

Im 44 next month and fantasy football was on when I was in my mid teens.  I don't really see it as that long ago, but obviously in terms of what is tolerated or understood now, it's worlds apart from today in terms of what is acceptable, but unlike others I don't see this as a bad thing.  

In my own experience, the people who have a problem with this change in attitudes towards what is acceptable to say are the ones who are still dishing out the abuse and they want to continue to do so, and instead of taking responsibility they blame those who stand up to their outdated attitudes 

[glynriley]

4 hours ago, Ska Junkie said:

Different era tbh TLC and wouldn't be allowed now. 

Go back a bit further and the black and white minstrels were prime time viewing and everyone of them painted their faces.

 Is it the fact people are less tolerant now or are the looking to be offended (not aimed at you)? I know which I believe.

To give another example, as a kid, I loved 'love thy neighbour'. Imagine that on Tele today plus, the mighty only fools and horses would struggle to get on prime TV nowadays due to 'potentially offensive content'. My generation just found these programs funny and never even thought they were naughty at all.

Of course people are looking to be offended. That’s why they drag up things that were said 30 years ago. Attitudes and outlooks constantly change and no doubt some things that are deemed acceptable now, will be offensive in 2050. 

[MarcusX]

2 hours ago, ralphindevon said:

In cricket a similar story with Indian cricketer Cheteshwar Pujara at Yorkshire was one of the incidents highlighted as being racist.

Jack Brooks, now at Somerset, was one of the players called out for calling him Steve.

I must admit I didn’t think for a second the Jason Lee thing was racist at the time, nor us calling Fam “Dave” but I guess it just shows your never too old to be educated.

Perhaps not racist but definitely offensive to many.

This is where education comes into it, to some people their name is their identity. It’s part of their culture and their heritage. Then ask them how often their name is mispronounced, or how often they are asked if they can be called something “easier”.

Then consider how many people are discriminated on their job applications etc because of their name, and how many feel they need to “anglicise” it.

A professional footballer near the top of his game may not be too worried, but it has the potential to normalise the act or make light of it for the rest of us.

[Ska Junkie]

1 hour ago, Tinmans Love Child said:

Im 44 next month and fantasy football was on when I was in my mid teens.  I don't really see it as that long ago, but obviously in terms of what is tolerated or understood now, it's worlds apart from today in terms of what is acceptable, but unlike others I don't see this as a bad thing.  

In my own experience, the people who have a problem with this change in attitudes towards what is acceptable to say are the ones who are still dishing out the abuse and they want to continue to do so, and instead of taking responsibility they blame those who stand up to their outdated attitudes 

Never said I had a problem but people are so easily offended nowadays whereas in my younger days (I'm 55) entertainment was clearly different.

As for the 'dishing out' comment, utter rubbish. I and my ilk may not be PC nowadays but don't look for reasons to be offended and, personally, I'm content with not being PC, which doesn't mean being offensive.

[Ska Junkie]

4 hours ago, harrys said:

Even as a kid I found love thy number truly embarrassing and just about the un-funniest thing on TV yet found Til death do us part quite funny, Rigsby in rising damp must be one of the best characters ever created and wasn’t prejudiced in who he offended.

Now til death us do part was, and is, hilarious! Totally un PC by modern standards but superbly funny.

[Port Said Red]

1 minute ago, Ska Junkie said:

Now til death us do part was, and is, hilarious! Totally un PC by modern standards but superbly funny.

The trouble with it, and the reason Warren Mitchell walked away from it in the end was, it was supposed to make you laugh at the stupid right wing racist, but it ended up as a beacon for the NF and other right wing organisations.