Wolves fan arrested after calling aways fans something not nice

[Rebounder]

1 hour ago, BrizzleRed said:

Understand where you’re coming from re the labels issue, but they can be viewed in multiple ways.  They can most certainly carry negative connotations to many people and cause a great deal of resentment though.

Yes, gays can certainly be more prone to insults from mindless individuals, but while things sre improving, unfortunattely we don’t live in a perfect world.  It’s unrealistic to expect that everything could actually be perfect.  

Life is tough for everyone in different ways.  Try telling the poor folks living in shop doorways who are getting pee’d on by drunks, that they are actually straight privilaged and maybe white privilaged too.

There’s a big danger when you start pinning what may be viewd by many as a negative label as being straight privilaged.  Instead of helping the cause of gay people, you could just be fuelling further resentment in tbe straight community.  

Same goes for any other privilage label out there, because in spite of what you explained earlier, that still appears to categorise a huge number of the population in a negative way, like it or not.
 

 

Things aren't really getting better at the moment though. They are regressing as hate crimes have been rising over recent years and we had a full on shooting spree at a gay bar in America just last year. There is still a lot to be vigilant about and we shouldn't accept people being attacked due to their sexuality as a way of life - just like we shouldn't accept it if straight person was attacked simply for being straight. (Though I agree we'll never stop all of it )

I do think there are massive issues with using the words Privileged, as when you're a white kid on an estate it's hard to really see that as privilege. I can see though that the black people I grew up with had more challenges to face even if our economic backgrounds were the same. For example a Black Woman is much more likely to have to deal with Sexism and Racism than I did in the UK growing up and as an adult.  That's all that people are saying. 

That's not to say the white straight male has had an incredibly Privileged life. 

 

Edited January 15, 2023 by Rebounder

[BrizzleRed]

9 hours ago, Rebounder said:

Things aren't really getting better at the moment though. They are regressing as hate crimes have been rising over recent years and we had a full on shooting spree at a gay bar in America just last year. There is still a lot to be vigilant about and we shouldn't accept people being attacked due to their sexuality as a way of life - just like we shouldn't accept it if straight person was attacked simply for being straight. (Though I agree we'll never stop all of it )

I do think there are massive issues with using the words Privileged, as when you're a white kid on an estate it's hard to really see that as privilege. I can see though that the black people I grew up with had more challenges to face even if our economic backgrounds were the same. For example a Black Woman is much more likely to have to deal with Sexism and Racism than I did in the UK growing up and as an adult.  That's all that people are saying. 

That's not to say the white straight male has had an incredibly Privileged life. 

 

Now you’re really talking about a country with massive social problems, when you get onto the subject of America!  I think we can safely say we’re way ahead of them on that score and they could learn a lot from us.

I think you could also find cases of mass shootings in just about every possible situation over there and as we all know, schools seem to be partiicularly popular.  It does seem to be a massively divided country on so many fronts and with their ridiculous gun laws, that can only have one outcome sadly.

Certainly agree with what you say in this post

[Leveller]

18 hours ago, robinforlife2 said:

I don't get how fans can take the moral high ground over this.

I recall around 40,000 City Fans at Cardiff Millennium Stadium in 2004, and for a lot of the game the majority sang towards the Brighton fans "Does your boyfriend know you're here".

Times have changed, and it's not a chant that could ever be sung again in all honesty, but fans can't take the moral high ground slating other fans and clubs, when 18 years ago, a lot of us, had done the very same at the Millennium stadium. 

In my experience actual gay fans find that one quite funny and not really offensive. It was designed to annoy straight Brighton fans, I imagine, and probably worked.

[Red-Robbo]

2 minutes ago, Leveller said:

In my experience actual gay fans find that one quite funny and not really offensive. It was designed to annoy straight Brighton fans, I imagine, and probably worked.

 

Brighton fans tend to respond with "We don't fancy, we don't fancy, we don't fancy you at all". Gay and straight Brighton fans that is, as they're very used to the Boyfriend chants.

[Leveller]

2 hours ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

Brighton fans tend to respond with "We don't fancy, we don't fancy, we don't fancy you at all". Gay and straight Brighton fans that is, as they're very used to the Boyfriend chants.

Fair point. And it’s hard to know where witty banter ends and real offence starts, that’s the problem. Homophobia’s unpleasant, but this chant is, objectively, less offensive than calling Welsh fans sheep shaggers, which still seems to be widely accepted as harmless. That will probably change, but at the moment the targets don’t seem too upset.

[italian dave]

17 hours ago, BrizzleRed said:

Understand where you’re coming from re the labels issue, but they can be viewed in multiple ways.  They can most certainly carry negative connotations to many people and cause a great deal of resentment though.

Yes, gays can certainly be more prone to insults from mindless individuals, but while things sre improving, unfortunattely we don’t live in a perfect world.  It’s unrealistic to expect that everything could actually be perfect.  

Life is tough for everyone in different ways.  Try telling the poor folks living in shop doorways who are getting pee’d on by drunks, that they are actually straight privilaged and maybe white privilaged too.

There’s a big danger when you start pinning what may be viewd by many as a negative label as being straight privilaged.  Instead of helping the cause of gay people, you could just be fuelling further resentment in tbe straight community.  

Same goes for any other privilage label out there, because in spite of what you explained earlier, that still appears to categorise a huge number of the population in a negative way, like it or not.
 

 

Pretty much what @Rebounder has already said above - and more eloquently than I could have!

The intent is not to label anyone as 'privileged' in a general sense and I thought that the blog made that point. It's just about highlighting the inequalities that - like it or not - have and still exist and the impact that has on some people and not on others.

Of course life is tough for lots of people, plenty of them white, straight, males - but I don't see the term as being used in that general way. You could, I suppose, talk about your folks in shop doorways in terms of housing tenure privilege or some such - but that's moving into different territory really - that's affected by circumstances and events, not just about who you are. 

Yes, I agree though that term can be problematic (and has certainly become so because there are people who want it to be - not suggesting that's you for a moment BTW) and I do get what you're saying - and clearly there are plenty who react against it. I just don't know what a better word would be. And even though I probably hit most of the 'xx privilege' buttons in relation to those protected characteristics under the equalities legislation, I cant say that I've ever felt it to be negative - it just makes me think. And, in the context it's intended, often makes me think of things that just hadn't occurred to me before. 

[italian dave]

3 hours ago, Leveller said:

Fair point. And it’s hard to know where witty banter ends and real offence starts, that’s the problem. Homophobia’s unpleasant, but this chant is, objectively, less offensive than calling Welsh fans sheep shaggers, which still seems to be widely accepted as harmless. That will probably change, but at the moment the targets don’t seem too upset.

Yeah, that's very true - and as you and @Red-Robbo say it's a very fine line sometimes. And often very nuanced. The 'boyfriend' one is an example, I think, where the first time it's really very funny - and says more about the reputation of Brighton as a place than about either the football club or any individual or group. But by the umpteenth time it's just stopped being funny, gets boring, or at worst is no longer a joke about Brighton but is stereotyping anyone from Brighton as gay - which I know isn't far from the original joke, but that joke's stopped being funny.

On the 'sheepshaggers' - have you seen the Reginald D Hunter sketch on that - hilarious! 

[BrizzleRed]

4 hours ago, italian dave said:

Pretty much what @Rebounder has already said above - and more eloquently than I could have!

The intent is not to label anyone as 'privileged' in a general sense and I thought that the blog made that point. It's just about highlighting the inequalities that - like it or not - have and still exist and the impact that has on some people and not on others.

Of course life is tough for lots of people, plenty of them white, straight, males - but I don't see the term as being used in that general way. You could, I suppose, talk about your folks in shop doorways in terms of housing tenure privilege or some such - but that's moving into different territory really - that's affected by circumstances and events, not just about who you are. 

Yes, I agree though that term can be problematic (and has certainly become so because there are people who want it to be - not suggesting that's you for a moment BTW) and I do get what you're saying - and clearly there are plenty who react against it. I just don't know what a better word would be. And even though I probably hit most of the 'xx privilege' buttons in relation to those protected characteristics under the equalities legislation, I cant say that I've ever felt it to be negative - it just makes me think. And, in the context it's intended, often makes me think of things that just hadn't occurred to me before. 

I appreciate the thoughtful and well put point of view ID.  The point where we completely differ is whether there is a need for a word privilage at all.  You say you don’t know what a better word would be, but I say, there shouldn’t be any word at all!

When you’re basically telling a whole ethnic group that they are under-privilaged, it creates a very negative mindset.  I believe everything should be viewed on a person by person basis, not on skin colour alone. 

There is absolutely no evidence that every white person has an advantage from birth, whilst every black person has a disadvantage and is discrimated against.  Taking this point a step further, the Asian community seem to show pretty high academic and business achievemts, so would they qualify as advantaged or disadvantaged under this form of categorisation?

In short, categorising entire groups within our society in terms of a single word, regardless of their individual situations seems absolutely pointless, as well as being very negative and divisive imho.  

The only real gain I can see, is for those who want to foster and promote a racial divide in this country, rather than try to eliminate it.  I will point out, as you did with me earlier, I’m certainly not suggesting you are one of these people.

I’m sure we’ll never agree on this one to be honest, but it’s been an interesting discussion, all the same.

[Leveller]

19 hours ago, italian dave said:

Yeah, that's very true - and as you and @Red-Robbo say it's a very fine line sometimes. And often very nuanced. The 'boyfriend' one is an example, I think, where the first time it's really very funny - and says more about the reputation of Brighton as a place than about either the football club or any individual or group. But by the umpteenth time it's just stopped being funny, gets boring, or at worst is no longer a joke about Brighton but is stereotyping anyone from Brighton as gay - which I know isn't far from the original joke, but that joke's stopped being funny.

On the 'sheepshaggers' - have you seen the Reginald D Hunter sketch on that - hilarious! 

Your point about repeated jokes echoes my earlier point in the Ultras thread about “Is this a library?” Etc being sung every sodding game. After the second time, it’s no longer funny and sets my teeth on edge. This is the problem with singing sections- most of what they come up with is just dire. I don’t hate singing per se - hearing the Kop rendition of “You’ll never was alone” is genuinely uplifting. But very little reaches this level. I still contend that the best atmosphere in grounds arises organically from exciting football.

[Red-Robbo]

Away fans who sing "is this a library?" are always the sort who have never ever been in a library - or picked up a book, for that matter.

Maybe it's a genuine query?