Message to JL

[ExiledAjax]

I think that whether or not to offer Pearson a new contract is a really tough decision. In the autumn we weren't as bad as some said we were, and right now we're not as good as some think we are. Pearson's done a great job behind the scenes but the next 3 years are going to be under different financial conditions. He may well have been perfect for the rebuild and reset, but someone else may be best for the push for the top 6. I'd not blame anyone who thought it best to let Pearson see out his contract and then hand over a well run, well set club with a solid squad of players. Hand that to the right manager and we could fly.

One things for sure - match results should be the final metric that we consider.

Edited March 3, 2023 by ExiledAjax

[Davefevs]

Just now, Kolsch said:

Fair enough Dave. I agree with a lot of what you say but I guess we’re different in this instance 

 

It just looks to me very much like there’s a ‘just go out and play’ approach to our side. I still feel like we’re going to get our comeuppance soon against a well coached team that’s done our homework against who we can’t overwhelm.

 

Its probably just that Nige is old school though, I guess his strengths lie in other areas.

Yeah, boring forum if we all agree.

my view….Nige may be old, but I don’t see him as old school.  He’s quite forward thinking / modern in lots of ways.  it’s why he brings in staff like Dave Rennie, who is right on the cusp of medical / sport science advancements.

Over the past 3/4 months he’s started to talk much more about tactics in his media duties, especially opposition.  Imho, he’s not just learned this side of the game, just that he feels comfortable talking about it.

In this division, very few teams overwhelm their opposition…and they tend to do it because they have superior players, e.g. Burnley.

[Kolsch]

12 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

No real plan? Wow.

Apologies I phrased that wrong. I just mean I’d be surprised if we’re as tactically versed as some other teams. West Brom and Middlesbrough for instance.

Nige’s strengths lie in other areas which have shown the past two months.

[Kolsch]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

Yeah, boring forum if we all agree.

my view….Nige may be old, but I don’t see him as old school.  He’s quite forward thinking / modern in lots of ways.  it’s why he brings in staff like Dave Rennie, who is right on the cusp of medical / sport science advancements.

Over the past 3/4 months he’s started to talk much more about tactics in his media duties, especially opposition.  Imho, he’s not just learned this side of the game, just that he feels comfortable talking about it.

In this division, very few teams overwhelm their opposition…and they tend to do it because they have superior players, e.g. Burnley.

Yes fair call mate.

At least we have belief now and I feel we have a chance in every game now.

 

Both Nige and his staff deserve full credit for that.

[Son of Fred]

6 hours ago, Roe said:

It was only 2 months ago people wanted him out

So what we give him an extra year or two and then what happens and we struggle for form again? We then need to make a change and have to pay out more money

The benefits of having him secured for longer right now are massively outweighed by the cost of if it goes wrong imo

 

Give your glasses a clean

[Roe]

4 minutes ago, Son of Fred said:

Give your glasses a clean

I think you're misreading my points but ok

[joe jordans teeth]

3 hours ago, Kolsch said:

Fair enough Dave. I agree with a lot of what you say but I guess we’re different in this instance 

 

It just looks to me very much like there’s a ‘just go out and play’ approach to our side. I still feel like we’re going to get our comeuppance soon against a well coached team that’s done our homework against who we can’t overwhelm.

 

Its probably just that Nige is old school though, I guess his strengths lie in other areas.

We will get our comeuppance like every team does in this league or any league 

[Sleepy1968]

4 hours ago, Selred said:

Harsh to say I don't have a brain cell, very likely many many like me in the same boat.

It's not just harsh, it's factually incorrect.

[Guest]

Jesus Christ I’ve had a mare.. genuinely read this topic as Massengo. Sorry chaps

[Selred]

1 hour ago, Percy Pig said:

We did look like turning it around. 

We've were unlucky in the majority of games in the bad run. 

 

I think you’re wearing rose tinted glasses. 

Pearson has done a great job off the field, not doubt about it. But back vs West Brom, we weren’t seeing performances on the pitch. 

Your reaction to fans wanting Pearson out were unnecessarily harsh imo. 

[Roe]

We simply can't keep giving out new contracts all over the place

Even Lee Johnson's contract wouldn't have expired if he was still here

So we're still essentially paying for 3 managers at this moment in time

[lenred]

8 minutes ago, Selred said:

I think you’re wearing rose tinted glasses. 

Pearson has done a great job off the field, not doubt about it. But back vs West Brom, we weren’t seeing performances on the pitch. 

Your reaction to fans wanting Pearson out were unnecessarily harsh imo. 

It’s just about being realistic about the diabolical position we were in,  nothing to do with rose tinted.   

[Selred]

9 minutes ago, Percy Pig said:

The style of play hasn't changed

We’ve gone from 5 at the back (think King was playing CB), to 4. That’s quite a major change, and the right one. We are playing far better now.

[ExiledAjax]

21 minutes ago, Percy Pig said:

Well, you couldn't see this run of form coming.

I and many others could. 

It happened as predicted. The style of play hasn't changed, Exiled Ajax has shown the statistical evidence to support that conclusion with reference to our xG and other metrics.

Not that difficult a conclusion to draw really. 

I'd actually suggest that it's you wearing mud covered glasses. But there we go, it's a game of opinion. 

The brain cells bit was a fairly jokey barb, in honesty- appreciate that doesn't come across well in text form. 

As my ears are burning I'd simply like to clarify that I did not predict a 12 match unbeaten run. I merely pointed out that 17th was about par for the course at the time, and that therefore we shouldn't worry about slipping lower than that. It was more likely than not that we'd improve, but I did not expect to be hitting 1.88 points per game in 2023. 

This run is the fruition of two years of tough decisions...but that doesn't mean it was inevitable.

Ps. The same numbers that allayed my fears in December currently suggest that we're gaining rather more points than is reasonable. Hence my opinion that were not as good as people think we are. Hence my feeling that playoffs are a pipe dream as likely as relegation.

[IdliketoRogerMoore]

29 minutes ago, Roe said:

We simply can't keep giving out new contracts all over the place

Even Lee Johnson's contract wouldn't have expired if he was still here

So we're still essentially paying for 3 managers at this moment in time

That’s not how football management contract law works usually if you get sacked you get paid a year or until you get a new job! That will be written into the contract as one of the clauses!

Lee Johnson won’t be getting paid by us and Sunderland and Hibs! 
we stopped paying him as soon as he took the Sunderland Job!

[ExiledAjax]

Just now, Percy Pig said:

A season is played over 46 games, the order you gain the points over that 46 game period isn't really relevant!

Stick that on my gravestone would you?

[Roe]

2 minutes ago, IdliketoRogerMoore said:

That’s not how football management contract law works usually if you get sacked you get paid a year or until you get a new job! That will be written into the contract as one of the clauses!

Lee Johnson won’t be getting paid by us and Sunderland and Hibs! 
we stopped paying him as soon as he took the Sunderland Job!

Of course but it still would have cost us

[Northern Red]

43 minutes ago, Roe said:

We simply can't keep giving out new contracts all over the place

Even Lee Johnson's contract wouldn't have expired if he was still here

So we're still essentially paying for 3 managers at this moment in time

Assuming you're including Holden, he was on a 12 month rolling deal, so we definitely won't still be paying him.

[Selred]

22 minutes ago, Percy Pig said:

I've had this argument many times and I really can't be bothered to have it again. 

What I will say is that formation and style are not even remotely related. You can play gegenpress in a 352 and a 433, you can play long ball, tiki-taka etc etc. Our style has not changed. 

I’d say we’ve gone from a team who exclusively played the counter attack usually wide, to a team who now takes the game on the front foot, playing down the middle more regularly now too. 

[Roe]

Nigel himself addresses exactly my point here at 14:40

[steviestevieneville]

6 hours ago, Kolsch said:

I agree. For however well we’ve done this calendar year, I think a lot of the changes were forced upon him and it’s just fallen into place.

The change in formation, personnel, having to play young players due to squad depth amongst other things.

I still feel also that there’s no real plan with our teams going into games. I’d be amazed if we did numerous tactical drills on the training pitch or in the analysis room at the HPC in the lead up to games if watching our games is anything to go by.

We’re doing well because Nige embraced the change in formation, stuck with a performing team and our lads have a real togetherness and camaraderie. And credit to him for that.

But I think it’s a little premature to start rewarding the manager with new deals just yet. Let’s see what happens when an inevitable bump in the road occurs.

Sorry but this post is complete bollocks 

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

10 hours ago, Percy Pig said:

Don't agree, think having a manager tied down longer term will give players additional reason to want to join the club.

He remains a big pull. Bigger than anyone we've had in years. 

 

I'll think you'll find that the biggest pull in football transfers is money.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, IdliketoRogerMoore said:

That’s not how football management contract law works usually if you get sacked you get paid a year or until you get a new job! That will be written into the contract as one of the clauses!

Lee Johnson won’t be getting paid by us and Sunderland and Hibs! 
we stopped paying him as soon as he took the Sunderland Job!

It depends on the contract and the exit clauses.  The LMA have confirmed in the past there is no standard manager contract.

Whilst many of us (me included) thought a 1-year rolling contract (like Holden was said to have) meant it continually updates and always has a year left, therefore a full year pay-off is due, I read some interesting stuff from a guy called Mike Thornton who gave a legal view that it it actually very different.  He wrote that at the end of year one it then gets renewed, not continually updates, so if you get rid of someone after 9 months, it’s only 3 months pay-out.

What also gets confused is how the pay-out (whatever length is left) is paid.  Again, no set rules.  Club can’t continue to pay as salary, to avoid a lump sum pay out, or pay-out in full, or even pay-out under conditions, e.g. we’ll keep paying you until you get another job.  It appears both Cotts and Johnson had this condition.  Cotts was alleged to have signed a 3-year deal with a 1-year pay-out clause.

But none of us really know - unless we saw the contract or someone very close to the deal leaks it.

[Selred]

1 hour ago, Percy Pig said:

So that 8 game unbeaten run at the start of the season didn't involve Naismith playing as a central sweeper and us playing through the thirds? 

Please don't take this the wrong way, but you're talking out of your arse bud!

I’m not talking about the first 8 games, I’m talking about our performances after the international break. 

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, Selred said:

I’m not talking about the first 8 games, I’m talking about our performances after the international break. 

Performances weren’t that bad at all.  West Brom was only second half, very even first half, second half we struggled to get the ball off of them.  You are always gonna have a range of performances.  After the World Cup, none of them were anywhere near Brum or Reading (both away pre-WC).  We comfortably beat Rotherham first game back too.  So it was only Stoke (fine but crap goals conceded) and West Brom before we went on our unbeaten run.

[ashton_fan]

Next season is make or break for Nige. I think we'll keep improving but if we're bottom half again then probably a change will be made at some point, so I wouldn't expect a new contract yet (and don't think Nige is bothered anyway)

[Engvall’s Splinter]

2 hours ago, ashton_fan said:

Next season is make or break for Nige. I think we'll keep improving but if we're bottom half again then probably a change will be made at some point, so I wouldn't expect a new contract yet (and don't think Nige is bothered anyway)

What do you mean by make or break exactly? Make the play offs, make the automatic promotion spots, make the top 10, make the top of half? 
 

As long as we don’t regress and financially we are improving, I see Nige here until he decides he wishes to leave. The side and ethic he has been / continues to create is one I can finally get behind. I feel real pride in the team when they leave the pitch. The players are putting a shift in week in week out, they seem an honest bunch too - no egos. Appreciate this should be the baseline but it’s been missing for sometime. Players are throwing themselves to get in the way of shots & crosses in numbers. They appear to be proud to wear the shirt - of course we want to see quality but I love the players showing fight and determination. 

[Selred]

7 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Performances weren’t that bad at all.  West Brom was only second half, very even first half, second half we struggled to get the ball off of them.  You are always gonna have a range of performances.  After the World Cup, none of them were anywhere near Brum or Reading (both away pre-WC).  We comfortably beat Rotherham first game back too.  So it was only Stoke (fine but crap goals conceded) and West Brom before we went on our unbeaten run.

Disagree about West Brom first half. We had a few let offs first half, our passing was all over the place. Weimann was at RB, King at CB, it didn’t work. As you mentioned at the time, that was a very poor performance.

I went to Reading away, one of the worst games we’ve played (ironically after beating West Brom the Tuesday before). So that also played into being fed up with Pearson and our football on Boxing Day. 

In summary, myself and many were done with Pearson and that’s fair. The club had conversations over his future then too. But since then he’s turned things around and we have done so well in 2023. But it’s fair to been critical and be finished with Pearson on Boxing Day in my opinion. 

Edited March 4, 2023 by Selred

[ExiledAjax]

18 minutes ago, Selred said:

Disagree about West Brom first half. We had a few let offs first half, our passing was all over the place. Weimann was at RB, King at CB, it didn’t work. As you mentioned at the time, that was a very poor performance.

I went to Reading away, one of the worst games we’ve played (ironically after beating West Brom the Tuesday before). So that also played into being fed up with Pearson and our football on Boxing Day. 

In summary, myself and many were done with Pearson and that’s fair. The club had conversations over his future then too. But since then he’s turned things around and we have done so well in 2023. But it’s fair to been critical and be finished with Pearson on Boxing Day in my opinion. 

I have a question.

With the benefit of the current hindsight we enjoy with Pearson will you give managers in the future more time or more leniency, perhaps even when you feel as though you are "done" with them?

[ashton_fan]

2 hours ago, Engvall’s Splinter said:

What do you mean by make or break exactly? Make the play offs, make the automatic promotion spots, make the top 10, make the top of half? 
 

As long as we don’t regress and financially we are improving, I see Nige here until he decides he wishes to leave. The side and ethic he has been / continues to create is one I can finally get behind. I feel real pride in the team when they leave the pitch. The players are putting a shift in week in week out, they seem an honest bunch too - no egos. Appreciate this should be the baseline but it’s been missing for sometime. Players are throwing themselves to get in the way of shots & crosses in numbers. They appear to be proud to wear the shirt - of course we want to see quality but I love the players showing fight and determination. 

I don't think our owner will accept anything less than a play-off challenge next season. He's in his 70's and wants to see us in the Premier League, he hasn't got unlimited time. I appreciate things are really good at present but we had similar runs when LJ was manager that took us near the top of the table for short periods of time, we don't know yet whether this run of form is sustainable or just an 'LJ streak', it's only a few weeks ago there were talks of demonstrations and the crowd showed their unhappiness at the WBA home game, things can change quickly in football. Probably our form will carry on improving but nothing's certain.