Message to JL

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, Selred said:

The club had conversations over his future then too.

I’m not saying they didn’t, but has this come from anyone credible?

Re West Brom, 2nd half was terrible, we couldn’t get near them…but that was a half a game one off.  It didn’t change my view that we were still a team that was improving slowly.  Will always be the odd crap game, just like the odd brilliant game.

I think too many see change as the answer.  It’s their prerogative.  But imho we never looked like a team that weren’t playing for the manager, changing the manager was the last thing we needed at that stage, both of the plan and the season with the window about to open.

I think I’m more forgiving that most, quite patient.  Someone would use the term “accepting of mediocrity”.  Nothing could be further from the truth, but I’ve rarely seen mediocrity since the start of 21/22 (end of 20/21 absolutely, but we knew a clear out was coming), I’ve seen a team trying to grow together, experiencing highs and lows and many individuals becoming better and / or realising their ability.

Nige / Pearson is a great debate, just like LJ was (still is).  Mainly because neither evaluation is black or white, the dynamics influencing that are too wide ranging.

I’m glad he’s turned people’s views around.  For me, I just struggle how people can change their minds so quickly.  That’s for me to deal with!

[harvey54]

23 hours ago, Roe said:

"we're still in the bottom half of the championship where our general aim has been to get into the play offs"

I think our general aim this season was to consolidate and try to avoid a relegation battle. I don't think many fans have genuine play off aspirations. Fwiw I'd give him a 3 year extension immediately. First proper manager we've had for decades 

Edited March 4, 2023 by harvey54

[Selred]

2 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

I have a question.

With the benefit of the current hindsight we enjoy with Pearson will you give managers in the future more time or more leniency, perhaps even when you feel as though you are "done" with them?

He was with us what, 20 months at that time? I feel that’s quite a good time to judge someone, I wasn’t in the Pearson out camp prior. 
How long should we give managers?

23 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I’m not saying they didn’t, but has this come from anyone credible?

I believe Lansdown mentioned conversations happened, when at the Senior Reds. 
Pearson himself admitted that questions should of been asked at that time.

Also nobody said in the match day thread we played played any better in the first half, it’s the opposite, I think you’re remembering the first half better than it was.

 

Edited March 4, 2023 by Selred

[TonyTonyTony]

7 minutes ago, Selred said:

He was with us what, 20 months at that time? I feel that’s quite a good time to judge someone, I wasn’t in the Pearson out camp prior. 
How long should we give managers?

I agree with you - at that point I was also questioning Pearson and whether he should say. I reckon it was 50:50 stay/go with the fans at that time.

[Open End Numb Legs]

I think with a manager at Pearson's stage of his career that whether they are keen to continue at a club often comes down to personal matters. I have no idea of his circumstances but his family will have thoughts, it might come down to how happy they are in the area, whether they always had a hope to retire abroad, personal health etc.

We only ever see these people on match day. Like anyone else they will have ordinary parts to their lives - one eye on the future, a property to maintain, a holiday to plan, that toilet flush that plays up. They are all human (well, not sure about Colin with those eyebrows).

My hunch is he is the type of person who would get restless and will want to carry on, particularly with the 2023 run so far.

[steviestevieneville]

9 minutes ago, Selred said:

He was with us what, 20 months at that time? I feel that’s quite a good time to judge someone, I wasn’t in the Pearson out camp prior. 
How long should we give managers?

I believe Lansdown mentioned conversations happened, when at the Senior Reds. 
Pearson himself admitted that questions should of been asked at that time.

Also nobody said in the match day thread we played played any better in the first half, it’s the opposite, I think you’re remembering the first half better than it was.

 

How long should we give managers you ask. It all depends on the circumstances the club is in when they take over. We were & continued to be in a bloody mess behind the scenes until very recently . This is why I get fed up of some fans just reacting to each game in isolation . We lost , sack him . We won he’s brilliant . 
when we won you could see we were miles off & when we lost you could understand why & take a few positives. 
players out of position , playing a back three were done because we didn’t have better options (players not ready ) . It’s not black & white as to how you give a manager time .  Imo if Pearson had come in after cotts & had the money to spend Johnson did , but without Teflon around we would of been properly knocking on the promotion door. 

[Davefevs]

15 minutes ago, Selred said:

Also nobody said in the match day thread we played played any better in the first half, it’s the opposite, I think you’re remembering the first half better than it was.

The MDT is not really a fair reflection of a game though is it?

(I accept we judge games differently though)

[Selred]

3 minutes ago, steviestevieneville said:

How long should we give managers you ask. It all depends on the circumstances the club is in when they take over. We were & continued to be in a bloody mess behind the scenes until very recently . This is why I get fed up of some fans just reacting to each game in isolation . We lost , sack him . We won he’s brilliant . 
when we won you could see we were miles off & when we lost you could understand why & take a few positives. 
players out of position , playing a back three were done because we didn’t have better options (players not ready ) . It’s not black & white as to how you give a manager time .  Imo if Pearson had come in after cotts & had the money to spend Johnson did , but without Teflon around we would of been properly knocking on the promotion door. 

No, totally agree on that front. But feel like I’ve been painted as someone who is being reactionary. Me finally losing patience with Pearson after 20 months is fair enough, especially when he played King over Atkinson! However I’m also not going to pretend now we are on a great run, playing wonderful football etc that I didn’t feel that at the time. As @TonyTonyTony there was a lot of people who wouldn’t of cried if Pearson went after that game. 

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

The MDT is not really a fair reflection of a game though is it?

(I accept we judge games differently though)

No, but also you’d imagine some people would of supported your first half analysis. It was dire, we were cut apart, the second half was just even worse! 

[steviestevieneville]

13 minutes ago, Selred said:

No, totally agree on that front. But feel like I’ve been painted as someone who is being reactionary. Me finally losing patience with Pearson after 20 months is fair enough, especially when he played King over Atkinson! However I’m also not going to pretend now we are on a great run, playing wonderful football etc that I didn’t feel that at the time. As @TonyTonyTony there was a lot of people who wouldn’t of cried if Pearson went after that game. 

No, but also you’d imagine some people would of supported your first half analysis. It was dire, we were cut apart, the second half was just even worse! 

The reactionary part of my post wasn’t aimed at you . However the part about playing king over Atkinson I did understand . Not in a playing sense but in a mentality sense . Some think he threw him under the bus but I didn’t see it like that . It was a kick up the ass . I think Pearson himself said Rob is very laid back . He’s obviously changed his mind set. Pearson doesn't do anything without reason imo. It’s worked . Was it worth losing a few points to get a better player long term , yes. 

[ExiledAjax]

1 hour ago, Selred said:

He was with us what, 20 months at that time? I feel that’s quite a good time to judge someone, I wasn’t in the Pearson out camp prior. 
How long should we give managers?

Fair answer. And I made the question succinct as well. To this I'd say it's not a question of a simple, raw time frame of X months or Y games. My posts in November/December were around the fact that we shouldn't sack him because it was only results that were poor. Underlying numbers were ok, and were not indicative of a relegation candidate.

So my answer to "how long do we give managers?" is "Until it becomes clear, through analysis of all metrics, that the squad's performances are either no longer improving or are regressing. In particular we should sack them if we are posting numbers that indicate that we are a relegation candidate." Note that this deliberately does not refer to results, but to underlying performance figures. This time frame will be different for each manager. Under Pearson's first year and a half we were generally continually trending upwards in most metrics. I was therefore happy to expect that "results would come", and so give him time.

As I've said though, it's no indicator of continued success, and under a less restricted budget we might actually find he's not the best fit for us. We might plateau - in fact we kind of already are - and so it might be best to find someone new.

Edited March 4, 2023 by ExiledAjax

[TonyTonyTony]

12 minutes ago, steviestevieneville said:

 However the part about playing king over Atkinson I did understand . Not in a playing sense but in a mentality sense . Some think he threw him under the bus but I didn’t see it like that . It was a kick up the ass . I think Pearson himself said Rob is very laid back . 

The combination of the woeful performance, an atmosphere that was terrible (acknowledged by Pearson after the game) and the harsh treatment of Atkinson definitely made a lot of fans turn. Amazing how quickly people forget.

[steviestevieneville]

16 minutes ago, TonyTonyTony said:

The combination of the woeful performance, an atmosphere that was terrible (acknowledged by Pearson after the game) and the harsh treatment of Atkinson definitely made a lot of fans turn. Amazing how quickly people forget.

When you say a lot of fans . That’s not strictly true is it . 

[Roe]

1 hour ago, harvey54 said:

I think our general aim this season was to consolidate and try to avoid a relegation battle. I don't think many fans have genuine play off aspirations. Fwiw I'd give him a 3 year extension immediately. First proper manager we've had for decades 

I don't think that was the aim at all really. At the start of the season Richard Gould was talking about us having a top 6 budget and we were signing Luton's best player

Pearson himself says he doesn't see the need for these talks right now

[TonyTonyTony]

13 minutes ago, steviestevieneville said:

When you say a lot of fans . That’s not strictly true is it . 

Well I didn’t count then admittedly but from where I was sat there was a lot of negativity to Pearson. My opinion is as valid as yours

[Mike Hunt-Hertz]

On 03/03/2023 at 10:50, Galley is our king said:

Don't fanny about too long please, get NP extension done!!

They'll have to interview him first.

[BS3_RED]

I wouldn't renew his contract yet. Most of his time here has been awful. I need to see a sustained improvement and if today is anything to go by

 

[joe jordans teeth]

29 minutes ago, BS3_RED said:

I wouldn't renew his contract yet. Most of his time here has been awful. I need to see a sustained improvement and if today is anything to go by

 

What do you mean awful,no money and comfortable keeping us up is a bloody good job

[BS3_RED]

10 minutes ago, Percy Pig said:

Here we go....

What, someone has a different opinion. You know that allowed.

7 minutes ago, joe jordans teeth said:

What do you mean awful,no money and comfortable keeping us up is a bloody good job

The football itself. 

[joe jordans teeth]

2 minutes ago, BS3_RED said:

What, someone has a different opinion. You know that allowed.

The football itself. 

Are you a fan who wants to be entertained or win football matches because if it’s the former you ain’t at the right club and haven’t been since Cott days 

[Mr Popodopolous]

5 minutes ago, BS3_RED said:

The football itself. 

Don't think it's that bad, been quite variable in that regard IMO plus big mitigating circumstances.

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, Roe said:

I don't think that was the aim at all really. At the start of the season Richard Gould was talking about us having a top 6 budget and we were signing Luton's best player

Pearson himself says he doesn't see the need for these talks right now

Nobody has ever said we have a top 6 budget, nor have we a top 6 budget.

He did say we can pay top 10 wages for the right player (we won’t pay it for every player).  That is also different to having a top 10 budget.

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

4 hours ago, harvey54 said:

I think our general aim this season was to consolidate and try to avoid a relegation battle. I don't think many fans have genuine play off aspirations. Fwiw I'd give him a 3 year extension immediately. First proper manager we've had for decades 

I don't get what a "proper" manager is? Genuine question: define "proper".

What part of Cotts winning the double was not "proper"? Was Gary Johnson also somehow not "proper" when getting promotion and then to the Championship play off final?

[Cowshed]

19 hours ago, Percy Pig said:

I've had this argument many times and I really can't be bothered to have it again. 

What I will say is that formation and style are not even remotely related. You can play gegenpress in a 352 and a 433, you can play long ball, tiki-taka etc etc. Our style has not changed. 

Gegenpressing is associated with 4-3-3. Numerically two cannot press the ball with as much intensity as a three in a unit. 4-3-3 also keeps players in closer proximity to counter press. Formation and style there are related. 

Edited March 4, 2023 by Cowshed

[bexhill reds]

1 hour ago, BS3_RED said:

What, someone has a different opinion. You know that allowed.

The football itself. 

On your metric of the football itself, he’s building an exciting and pacy dynamic team, that is playing some very tidy football, even going toe to toe with City for 70 mins, arguably they’ve been playing some really good stuff, if they’d have scored in the 1st 20 mins today with the chances they created, then I think that’s 3 pts to us, and you wouldn’t be posting guff like this

[Mr Popodopolous]

7 hours ago, Cowshed said:

Gegenpressing is associated with 4-3-3. Numerically two cannot press the ball with as much intensity as a three in a unit. 4-3-3 also keeps players in closer proximity to counter press. Formation and style there are related. 

Spot on.

Think 4-3-3 ia a very modern, suitable setup. Not the be all and end all and there were good performances albeit unsuccessful results or good results with questionable performances with a back 3.

However totally agree on the pressing point, I also believe and have argued this on here periodically in recent years that 4-3-3 is better for possession football therefore the possession and press combo ajd that with players such as recently Massengo, before him Nagy, arguably would have helped Pack, Smith and Brownhill to be even better...Walsh had he been fit is another.

Hegeler probably would have suited a 3, Henriksen too- closer proximity, tighter unit- probably better for possession in a 3 than a 2 abd by a 3 I mean 3 true CMs, not say 2 CMs and one of Paterson/Weimann, let alone Palmer or O'Dowda.

Edited March 4, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Cowshed]

21 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Spot on.

Think 4-3-3 ia a very modern, suitable setup. Not the be all and end all and there were good performances albeit unsuccessful results or good results with questionable performances with a back 3.

However totally agree on the pressing point, I also believe and have argued this on here periodically in recent years that 4-3-3 is better for possession football therefore the possession and press combo ajd that with players such as recently Massengo, before him Nagy, arguably would have helped Pack, Smith and Brownhill to be even better...Walsh had he been fit is another.

Hegeler probably would have suited a 3, Henriksen too- closer proximity, tighter unit- probably better for possession in a 3 than a 2 abd by a 3 I mean 3 true CMs, not say 2 CMs and one of Paterson/Weimann, let alone Palmer or O'Dowda.

Its geometrical. 4-3-3 can be used to cover more of the pitch using width and depth, which creates greater passing angles to maintain possession versus other formations. 

[Davefevs]

Mr P - 433 isn’t a modern formation.

I grew up playing 433 in age group football in the early 80s.

In fact some of my “influence / bias” re 433 stems from that.  One isolated CF, because two wide forwards hugged their wings is a pet hate.  It’s why I liked the lop-sided manifestation with Semenyo.

There are of course modern variations.

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Mr P - 433 isn’t a modern formation.

I grew up playing 433 in age group football in the early 80s.

In fact some of my “influence / bias” re 433 stems from that.  One isolated CF, because two wide forwards hugged their wings is a pet hate.  It’s why I liked the lop-sided manifestation with Semenyo.

There are of course modern variations.

I suppose I haven't worded it so well Dave. Of course 4-3-3 has existed for years.

Suppose my point/view on this is that it is the best suited to rhe modern game- the press, the relative compactness and the extra margin for error in possession when you have 3 as opposed to 2 in CM.

Semenyo was a great one for us in this- he cut in and out. Yeah a forward getting too isolated is a risk too...that support is definitely needed, not sure that we are quite getting the balance right though a fit Atkinson and Naismith will improve us in terms of ball carrying and possession- Naismith unlike our other CMs possibly most naturally can drop back into a back 3 too. Helpful in-game.

4 hours ago, Cowshed said:

Its geometrical. 4-3-3 can be used to cover more of the pitch using width and depth, which creates greater passing angles to maintain possession versus other formations. 

Agreed on this- but supplemental I don't think 2 in CM or 2 with an attacking mid necessarily suited those CMs in a lot of cases either.