The Injury Narrative

[mozo]

Just playing devil's advocate here, but I feel like this is a legitimate question to ask... Has our injury situation improved since Dr Death left for Ipswich?

The reason I ask is, the perceived wisdom is that Dave Rennie has come in and sorted out the fitness and injury situation. 

But at the same time we have an injury crisis again.

So, whilst I accept that Williams and Kalas may have already been damaged good when Rennie arrived, are we not still suffering a high volume of injuries?

Not just that but we're seeing recurring injuries too. 

I'm sure @Davefevs has the actual numbers of absentees, or even missed games, per season?!

Just wanted to gently enquire if that narrative is 100% correct?

[ExiledAjax]

Couple of points to add.

Our squad is slimmer now than it was under LJ. So each single injury has a greater impact than before. 

Secondly, and I've not looked into it, but we need to consider the type of injuries we're suffering. Under the old regime the ones that were serious were muscle based and often recurring. A few suffered in training as well.

Finally, remember that it was rushed rehab that contributed to the limited squad as much as the injuries themselves. This season, bar Kalas (which I think is a new injury) we've not had any be out for ages, then back for a few games, then out for ages.

[Numero Uno]

8 minutes ago, mozo said:

Just playing devil's advocate here, but I feel like this is a legitimate question to ask... Has our injury situation improved since Dr Death left for Ipswich?

The reason I ask is, the perceived wisdom is that Dave Rennie has come in and sorted out the fitness and injury situation. 

But at the same time we have an injury crisis again.

So, whilst I accept that Williams and Kalas may have already been damaged good when Rennie arrived, are we not still suffering a high volume of injuries?

Not just that but we're seeing recurring injuries too. 

I'm sure @Davefevs has the actual numbers of absentees, or even missed games, per season?!

Just wanted to gently enquire if that narrative is 100% correct?

I think it has improved (a bit) but definitely not "sorted out". We are still a long way from that.....look at the line-up today!! As you say would be interesting to see the stats.

[mozo]

1 minute ago, ExiledAjax said:

Couple of points to add.

Our squad is slimmer now than it was under LJ. So each single injury has a greater impact than before. 

Secondly, and I've not looked into it, but we need to consider the type of injuries we're suffering. Under the old regime the ones that were serious were muscle based and often recurring. A few suffered in training as well.

Finally, remember that it was rushed rehab that contributed to the limited squad as much as the injuries themselves. This season, bar Kalas (which I think is a new injury) we've not had any be out for ages, then back for a few games, then out for ages.

Benarous obviously has had a recurrence too, not that I'm trying to score a point with that

[David Brent]

Without knowing for sure, I’m more inclined to believe that most injuries we have are contact injuries and not as a result of mistreatment. 

[GrahamC]

I’m sure someone can come up with the stats but my hunch is overall significantly improved (people forget under Holden we were missing about 8 players for almost the entire season) but when we reach pinch points like the last few games that hits us hard.

Naismith has been a bit of a disappointment to only be available 20/38 but Kalas was an known issue & Benarous & Baker both extremely unlucky.

Does need to be a big factor in our recruitment, bluntly we need more Sykes, Scott, Wells & Vyners, so players who regularly are available for 40 plus games.

[mozo]

1 minute ago, David Brent said:

Without knowing for sure, I’m more inclined to believe that most injuries we have are contact injuries and not as a result of mistreatment. 

That's my assumption too. I just wanted to interrogate my own beliefs on this topic as much as anything. 

I will absolutely not be asking Nige the question at the next pre-match press conference...

[ExiledAjax]

1 minute ago, mozo said:

Benarous obviously has had a recurrence too, not that I'm trying to score a point with that

True.

I wasn't trying to score points either btw. It's always a valid question to ask but I really think there's an awful lot of nuance to the question:

13 minutes ago, mozo said:

Has our injury situation improved since Dr Death left for Ipswich?

It's one of those questions that seems simple to answer but then every answer just leads to more questions.

Personally squad size is huge. We're much slimmer right now, essentially this season we've had a main core of about 15 outfield players. That's a far cry from the "clubs in the bag" days of 2017-20. Every injury is impactful, and so more obvious, and so seemingly more serious.

[mozo]

1 minute ago, GrahamC said:

I’m sure someone can come up with the stats but my hunch is overall significantly improved (people forget under Holden we were missing about 8 players for almost the entire season) but when we reach pinch points like the last few games that hits us hard.

Naismith has been a bit of a disappointment to only be available 20/38 but Kalas was an known issue & Benarous & Baker both extremely unlucky.

Does need to be a big factor in our recruitment, bluntly we need more Sykes, Scott, Wells & Vyners, so players who regularly are available for 40 plus games.

Wilson obviously another long term one, and did DaSilva have a long spell out? Can't remember how long Weimann was out for?

[Gazred]

Think NP said the other day that most of our injuries have occurred in game. Unless there are question marks over players robustness, there's not a lot you can do about that.

[GrahamC]

13 minutes ago, mozo said:

Wilson obviously another long term one, and did DaSilva have a long spell out? Can't remember how long Weimann was out for?

This season?

Dasilva has been available throughout, 24 starts & on the bench for 13, so 37/38, he was ill so missed Rotherham away, that’s the only one. Weimann missed 2 league games with injury (Birmingham & Blackburn home), he was ill earlier in the season & so also missed Swansea home but has been in the squad for 35/38.

Huge contrast with 20/21 Weimann was out injured for 39/46 games & Dasilva for 32/46. Plus the likes of Williams (played 1 league game), Adelakun, Brunt, Martin, Watkins, Pring, Walsh, Paterson, Baker all out long term.

Transfermarkt has this data.

Edited March 19, 2023 by GrahamC

[Lorenzos Only Goal]

I think our players are generally more robust and better looked after now than previously.  It would be interesting to see Daves injury vs robustness plot again. 

[TBW]

Almost like we'd be in a slightly better spot if we didn't sell Towler.

[BCFCGav]

It had been excellent all season, usually about 3 out. We’re now at 8 which is really annoying, especially with a thin squad. Generally this season has been fine from an injury perspective and I think this is just a stack of bad luck (very Bristol City).

[pl00peh91]

28 minutes ago, TBW said:

Almost like we'd be in a slightly better spot if we didn't sell Towler.

I’m not sure you can legislate for Atkinson, Kalas and Naismith all being injured at the same time, unless you expect them to have a crystal ball 

[HappyClapper]

6 minutes ago, pl00peh91 said:

I’m not sure you can legislate for Atkinson, Kalas and Naismith all being injured at the same time, unless you expect them to have a crystal ball 

NP has also mentioned previously that Towler was behind Pring and Tanner as a centre half. This means we would need two more injuries before he would be in line to play.

It’s a similar rhetoric, albeit Towler is a much better player, to the Louis Britton nonsense last season.

[Port Said Red]

1 hour ago, David Brent said:

Without knowing for sure, I’m more inclined to believe that most injuries we have are contact injuries and not as a result of mistreatment. 

That was what I would say as well, also not much that could be done about Atkinson's freak injury either. Hamstring pulls etc, I would say that maybe they were under prepared or overworked, but ligaments, which we seem to have a lot of are not really something that you can prevent.

[Simon bristol]

29 minutes ago, BCFCGav said:

It had been excellent all season, usually about 3 out. We’re now at 8 which is really annoying, especially with a thin squad. Generally this season has been fine from an injury perspective and I think this is just a stack of bad luck (very Bristol City).

Its bad luck, but obviously in football injuries will happen. Having said that,, anyone relying on kalas and williams to come in and give regular minutes is being pretty optimistic!

[Robbored]

Without the stats I have to assume that other Championship clubs have a similar injury list to ourselves. We all play in the same division and face similar opposition and therefore are subjected to the same hurly burly of the Championship and sometimes Lady Luck turns against us which she seems to have. How unlucky is it to lose Atkinson, Kalas, Conway and Williams?

Under LJ/ Holden and Dr Death our players weren’t fully fit and obviously more prone to injuries which Dr Death then failed to treat appropriately - hence the long injured list.

City aren’t going anywhere despite the injured list. One more win puts us above the 50 points mark and safe from the drop zone and are too far below the top six

 

[Davefevs]

 

That’s the full picture. Includes suspensions, illness and cup-tied too.

Just pure injuries:

 

I think Rennie has done a v.good job overall.

Edit: just to add Bajic joined injured, Kalas had an op last season, carried into this, as did Benarous.

What we’ve seen, and I’ve been saying it all season, we will struggle when key players are missing.  Typically James and Naismith, but also Atkinson and Kalas, because it’s meant we’ve lost Pring at LB.  I don’t think it takes a rocket scientist to know a bit of strength in CM and CB is the key for next season.

Edited March 19, 2023 by Davefevs

[David Brent]

23 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

That was what I would say as well, also not much that could be done about Atkinson's freak injury either. Hamstring pulls etc, I would say that maybe they were under prepared or overworked, but ligaments, which we seem to have a lot of are not really something that you can prevent.

I’m sure Nigel said as much recently 

[MarcusX]

1 hour ago, GrahamC said:

This season?

Dasilva has been available throughout, 24 starts & on the bench for 13, so 37/38, he was ill so missed Rotherham away, that’s the only one. Weimann missed 2 league games with injury (Birmingham & Blackburn home), he was ill earlier in the season & so also missed Swansea home but has been in the squad for 35/38.

Huge contrast with 20/21 Weimann was out injured for 39/46 games & Dasilva for 32/46. Plus the likes of Williams (played 1 league game), Adelakun, Brunt, Martin, Watkins, Pring, Walsh, Paterson, Baker all out long term.

Transfermarkt has this data.

Why does it feel like Weimann’s been missing more than that?

1 hour ago, TBW said:

Almost like we'd be in a slightly better spot if we didn't sell Towler.

Rovers might have been

[GrahamC]

2 minutes ago, MarcusX said:

Why does it feel like Weimann’s been missing more than that?

 

Missed the FA Cup games prior to Man City.

[BCFCGav]

36 minutes ago, Simon bristol said:

Its bad luck, but obviously in football injuries will happen. Having said that,, anyone relying on kalas and williams to come in and give regular minutes is being pretty optimistic!

Yea there’s nothing worse than injury prone players. They come back and get 10 games and just as you’re getting excited it happens again. We’re seeing it a bit with James and Naismith too. It’s always the best bloody players!

[italian dave]

49 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Without the stats I have to assume that other Championship clubs have a similar injury list to ourselves. We all play in the same division and face similar opposition and therefore are subjected to the same hurly burly of the Championship and sometimes Lady Luck turns against us which she seems to have. How unlucky is it to lose Atkinson, Kalas, Conway and Williams?

Under LJ/ Holden and Dr Death our players weren’t fully fit and obviously more prone to injuries which Dr Death then failed to treat appropriately - hence the long injured list.

City aren’t going anywhere despite the injured list. One more win puts us above the 50 points mark and safe from the drop zone and are too far below the top six

 

Just about to pose a similar question RR. How different (of at all) are we to the average Championship club? I can recall a couple of times recently when we’ve played a side with 6 players out injured (or similar). Is it that uncommon? Or - like the penalties - does it come in phases for most sides but just happen constantly to us?!

[AshtonGreat]

59 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 

That’s the full picture. Includes suspensions, illness and cup-tied too.

Just pure injuries:

 

I think Rennie has done a v.good job overall.

Edit: just to add Bajic joined injured, Kalas had an op last season, carried into this, as did Benarous.

What we’ve seen, and I’ve been saying it all season, we will struggle when key players are missing.  Typically James and Naismith, but also Atkinson and Kalas, because it’s meant we’ve lost Pring at LB.  I don’t think it takes a rocket scientist to know a bit of strength in CM and CB is the key for next season.

Did we not have Massengo?

[Davefevs]

21 minutes ago, italian dave said:

Just about to pose a similar question RR. How different (of at all) are we to the average Championship club? I can recall a couple of times recently when we’ve played a side with 6 players out injured (or similar). Is it that uncommon? Or - like the penalties - does it come in phases for most sides but just happen constantly to us?!

Think with a small squad (as mentioned earlier) we are more at risk when we do get injuries.  You could almost discount Benarous, who’s been out all season.  But injuries down the spine of the team is gonna hit us harder than other teams.

3 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

Did we not have Massengo?

Sorry, not sure what you’re asking?

[Robbored]

1 hour ago, italian dave said:

Just about to pose a similar question RR. How different (of at all) are we to the average Championship club? I can recall a couple of times recently when we’ve played a side with 6 players out injured (or similar). Is it that uncommon? Or - like the penalties - does it come in phases for most sides but just happen constantly to us?!

I remember we played the Owls under LJ/Holden when our injury list was pretty much at its worst only to discover that The owls had an injury list worse than ours. It kinda supports the view that all clubs have injury lists that are variable.

[MarcusX]

1 hour ago, BCFCGav said:

Yea there’s nothing worse than injury prone players. They come back and get 10 games and just as you’re getting excited it happens again. We’re seeing it a bit with James and Naismith too. It’s always the best bloody players!

There's a difference between injury prone and coming back too soon though, in my opinion.

 

[Davefevs]

Different view of the data.