Spurs v Brighton

[Swede]

It should be scrapped now. Instead of providing definitive answers its creating even more controversy. Why on earth don't the football authorities adopt a similar regime as Rugby Union. Mike the Ref up for the stadium at that point with the fourth official looking at the monitor for a different point of view.

[cidered abroad]

1 hour ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Could be subconscious bias, or something more sinister. Who knows.

The Negreira case in Spain is pretty remarkable; Barca paying millions of euros to a referee for "consultancy". Not saying that's what's going on in England, but it's extraordinary it happened at all and has been uncovered.

Some of the decisions or indecisions that have crept into the game in the last ten years have puzzled me. I grew up when players could always try to cheat but there appeared to be a basic honesty among players and referees. A mistake wasn't a signal to bully a ref, more likely a quiet word when next passing the ref and a reply along the lines "I might have got it wrong but how many mistakes have you made?" Now any possible error by an official is likely to produce more agro from the players and managing staff than is happening in Ukraine.

But when one considers the number of serious errors consistently made by a refereeing team of four, there is something that needs to be corrected. I don't like events being checked by VAR because it has led, IMO, to referees not making decisions on the spot and leaving it to someone else. Football is a world sport and thus there will be two methods of refereeing in the elite, rich leagues and the rest of the football world. Crazy.

Finally @Kid in the Riot I do begin to wonder how there appears to be similar events even at Championship level, to the Barcelona "Consultancy". Where there is cash involved, there will be the "use of it to encourage illegal purchases". City's penalty record, or more accurately, the total lack over the past two years (yes we got two last month) tells me that the clubs and officials, may be buying "services involving cash movement."

[Sir Geoff]

Howard Webb already apologised to Brighton and stated that the 'stamp' should have been a penalty.

What annoys me is that 99% of fans can see straight away that it's a penalty but it takes VAR 5 minutes to see that it isn't.

[Mr Popodopolous]

A third apology letter of the season. What is it about sides that begin with Bri eh.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-11954165/PGMOL-admits-got-decision-wrong-Brighton-winger-Kaoru-Mitoma-denied-late-penalty.html

[Mr Popodopolous]

12 hours ago, Swede said:

VAR is everything that is wrong with football. Its almost that Brighton aren't fashionable for European football. 

You say they're not fashionable their brand of football is very good. I get what you're saying tbh.

They get the penalty I expect they win the game. Draw at worst but I expect win in reality.

Edited April 9, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Talking of offside goals, still not wholly convinced about the one on Friday.

Think the linesman guessed somewhat. Watched both the Sky and the Stoke highlights a few times and I'm not certain he was off, not certain at all.

[Unan]

2 hours ago, cidercity1987 said:

The chances of 5 mix of subjective and non subjective decisions going to one team is almost statistically impossibly 

It’s actually very possible (1/32 or 3%)

Edited April 9, 2023 by Marcus Aurelius

[cidercity1987]

2 minutes ago, Marcus Aurelius said:

It’s actually 1/32 

It's not though due to human nature naturally levelling the decisions

[Unan]

2 minutes ago, cidercity1987 said:

It's not though due to human nature naturally levelling the decisions

I don’t really know what you mean but 5/5 50/50 decisions going one way is (1/2)^5. All I know is it’s not statistically impossible & those odds are somewhat common. Might’ve got the wrong end of the stick here.

Edited April 9, 2023 by Marcus Aurelius

[Midred]

56 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

A third apology letter of the season. What is it about sides that begin with Bri eh.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-11954165/PGMOL-admits-got-decision-wrong-Brighton-winger-Kaoru-Mitoma-denied-late-penalty.html

It's almost an insult getting these letters now. Unless they can award post match bonus  points or replay the match . It would be nice if the VAR team were to lose some of their fee.

[downendcity]

Back in the day referees and linesmen made decisions in real time and once the decision was made that was it. 

Post match TV pundits would debate especially contentious or crucial decisions - West Brom's offside goal at Elland Road that cost Leeds the title, springs to mind 

The advent of Sky's premier league coverage led to ever greater scrutiny of refereeing decisions, because controversy is always good telly, and increasing calls for the introduction of technology to help referees.

At the same time football's administrators have tinkered with the laws of the game, making them ever more prescriptive.

While VAR in theory is an ideal tool, it's the tools that work with it that are the problem.it seems that almost weekly there are as many contentious decisions as there were pre-VAR.

Pre-VAR you could excuse the man in the middle for getting a decision wrong when he had only one view, in real time and at full speed to aid his decision. When a team of 3, with multiple angles and slo-mo replays and time make the same mistakes, then something is badly wrong.

I'm no conspiracy theorist ( he says while putting forward such a theory) but the VAR process does open up the possibility of being able to influence the outcome of games outside of the game itself. You only have to look at the investigation into allegations that Barca bribed match officials over a long period to realise that money in football can corrupt.

 

[cityexile]

1 hour ago, Sir Geoff said:

Howard Webb already apologised to Brighton and stated that the 'stamp' should have been a penalty.

What annoys me is that 99% of fans can see straight away that it's a penalty but it takes VAR 5 minutes to see that it isn't.

Assuming we are not going down the rabbit hole of outright corruption, and you are right that most of us looking at that after the event can see it’s a clear penalty, what is the explanation?

Speaking to somebody who as at the game, their memory was that this was a very quick decision. I suppose it’s just possible in the interests of speed ‘and not taking too long’, they did not even see the angle where we all go ‘yea, that’s a penalty’. Under pressure not to take 3 mins each time, on this one they rushed? All I can come up with.

 

[Sir Geoff]

Before VAR pgmol argued that it wasn't needed as they were getting 96% of decisions correct. I wonder what the percentage is now.

[Robbored]

4 hours ago, Sir Geoff said:

Howard Webb already apologised to Brighton and stated that the 'stamp' should have been a penalty.

What annoys me is that 99% of fans can see straight away that it's a penalty but it takes VAR 5 minutes to see that it isn't.

The pundits on Sky Sports including Geoff Stelling were stunned that the stamp wasn’t given as penalty. Shearer said exactly the same on MotD. Not only that incident but a blatant shirt pull in full view of referee wasn’t even reviewed!

How can VaR get it so wrong? . To use Danny Murphys comment ‘incompetent’ is spot on.

Howard Webb apology doesn’t give back any dropped points - it’s empty gesture.

[Sir Geoff]

2 hours ago, cityexile said:

Assuming we are not going down the rabbit hole of outright corruption, and you are right that most of us looking at that after the event can see it’s a clear penalty, what is the explanation?

Speaking to somebody who as at the game, their memory was that this was a very quick decision. I suppose it’s just possible in the interests of speed ‘and not taking too long’, they did not even see the angle where we all go ‘yea, that’s a penalty’. Under pressure not to take 3 mins each time, on this one they rushed? All I can come up with.

 

Incompetence is the only answer I can offer. But your question/ point begs the question how many camera angles did they have of the 'handball' that appeared to be above the shirt sleeve and the ' handball' that looked as though it came off the hip. If they made those from different camera angles how could they not see the stamp. The referee was directly in line with it 8 yards away. How can a professional adjudicator not see that it was a foul from that close. Incompetence.

As to the time it took I have no idea how long it took but if it was that quick then clearly they should have taken a bit longer.

[maxjak]

VAR as a concept and a tool is an excellent idea..........the problem's seem to lie with the Tools that operate it?

[Northern Red]

19 hours ago, cityexile said:

Assuming we are not going down the rabbit hole of outright corruption, and you are right that most of us looking at that after the event can see it’s a clear penalty, what is the explanation?

Speaking to somebody who as at the game, their memory was that this was a very quick decision. I suppose it’s just possible in the interests of speed ‘and not taking too long’, they did not even see the angle where we all go ‘yea, that’s a penalty’. Under pressure not to take 3 mins each time, on this one they rushed? All I can come up with.

 

This is it. All very well them admitting they got it wrong, but they should explain the thought process that got it wrong.

[maxjak]

Not Spurs v Brighton............But i just had to laugh, and also feel disgusted by the behaviour of England's captain  Harry Kane in the Everton game.  Of course Doucoure had to go, for raising his hand, but Kane going down in a heap, as if punched by Tyson Fury was an embarassment and very sad....I thought he was better than that?  It was no more than brush across his face, and his reaction was contemptuous, and pathetic. IMHO   

[frenchred]

1 hour ago, maxjak said:

Not Spurs v Brighton............But i just had to laugh, and also feel disgusted by the behaviour of England's captain  Harry Kane in the Everton game.  Of course Doucoure had to go, for raising his hand, but Kane going down in a heap, as if punched by Tyson Fury was an embarassment and very sad....I thought he was better than that?  It was no more than brush across his face, and his reaction was contemptuous, and pathetic. IMHO   

Whilst I agree with you totally I believe referees have brought this on themselves somewhat. If a player doesn't go down he doesn't get the decision in 99% of cases, so whilst Harry Kane going down was pathetic if he didn't I doubt dacoure would have been sent off!

[And Its Smith]

Another apology to Brighton from the PGMOL.  Maybe every 3 apologies should mean 3 points compensation! At least then they would mean something 

[Rocking Red Cyril]

On 09/04/2023 at 12:42, Marcus Aurelius said:

I don’t really know what you mean but 5/5 50/50 decisions going one way is (1/2)^5. All I know is it’s not statistically impossible & those odds are somewhat common. Might’ve got the wrong end of the stick here.

Any scenario has a probability and can happen  

[Bris Red]

VAR has done the exact opposite of what it was supposed to do imo, it hasn’t improved decisions at all and we are now having to wait around for 3-4 minutes for a panel of people to still make the wrong call.

It’s embarrassing and does make me question if there is something more sinister at work in regards to the bias decisions towards the bigger clubs.

All football ever needed was clear and concise goal line technology IMO.

[The Bard]

On 09/04/2023 at 12:41, cidercity1987 said:

It's not though due to human nature naturally levelling the decisions

But human nature doesn't do that does it?

[Rocking Red Cyril]

On 09/04/2023 at 15:55, Sir Geoff said:

Incompetence is the only answer I can offer. But your question/ point begs the question how many camera angles did they have of the 'handball' that appeared to be above the shirt sleeve and the ' handball' that looked as though it came off the hip. If they made those from different camera angles how could they not see the stamp. The referee was directly in line with it 8 yards away. How can a professional adjudicator not see that it was a foul from that close. Incompetence.

As to the time it took I have no idea how long it took but if it was that quick then clearly they should have taken a bit longer.

I think stamps are an interesting foul that happens a lot and is often not picked up by ref. Or Var. Often I see tackles going in which to me are blatant stamps on the foot ankle area, and seem an attempt to cause injury. More often than not not called a foul. Again its just as  I see it. 

Edited April 11, 2023 by Rocking Red Cyril
Added more words

[Super]

20 hours ago, maxjak said:

Not Spurs v Brighton............But i just had to laugh, and also feel disgusted by the behaviour of England's captain  Harry Kane in the Everton game.  Of course Doucoure had to go, for raising his hand, but Kane going down in a heap, as if punched by Tyson Fury was an embarassment and very sad....I thought he was better than that?  It was no more than brush across his face, and his reaction was contemptuous, and pathetic. IMHO   

He was "smacked" according to some...

[cider hoss rules]

On 09/04/2023 at 17:22, maxjak said:

VAR as a concept and a tool is an excellent idea..........the problem's seem to lie with the Tools that operate it?

Agreed, I think the VAR system should be there for the on pitch official(s) to be able to go and look at something if his view was obscured or was a close call, not for a bloke 100 miles away not involved with proceedings to have his interpretation on what he thinks he's seen when slowed down from 20 different angles.

At worst, the 4th official should be the one steering the on pitch ref that he may want to review something.

The hand ball/penalty/no goal needs to be sorted out properly as well, take out any ambiguity.

 

[1960maaan]

21 hours ago, maxjak said:

Not Spurs v Brighton............But i just had to laugh, and also feel disgusted by the behaviour of England's captain  Harry Kane in the Everton game.  Of course Doucoure had to go, for raising his hand, but Kane going down in a heap, as if punched by Tyson Fury was an embarassment and very sad....I thought he was better than that?  It was no more than brush across his face, and his reaction was contemptuous, and pathetic. IMHO   

If he's near his eye it could be nasty.

[Midred]

Apparently the VAR official for this match who neglected to tell the match ref that he should have awarded a penalty to Brighton has been penalised and will not be officiating this weekend. Meanwhile Stuart Attwell who failed to award the penalty carries on! What responsibility do match officials have  now?