Millwall starting 11

[Baldyman]

Been watching a lot of Tv footy of late whilst recovering from a broken ankle and was surprised to see Millwall’s starting 11 for the last 2 games with them still in with a shout of the Prem next season . In both games I saw , they started & finished without a single black or Asian player on the pitch . All other London clubs had between 5 & 9 players who were Black or Asian on the pitch over their last 2 games .The area in and around Millwall is 61 % Black or Asian . So what’s the issue here ? It surely couldn’t be the club themselves instigating this so is it that Black and Asian players just give that club the biggest swerve possible . If so , how on Earth could they survive in the Prem with pitiful gates and a massive  pool of talent visibly steering well clear , presumably for reasons engrained over many decades ? 

[Davefevs]

Interesting.  Never really looked at it this way, but some players might not want to join them because of race issues.  They’ve had Afobe, Romeo in recent years.  Mason Bennett is a current player.

[phantom]

49 minutes ago, Baldyman said:

Been watching a lot of Tv footy of late whilst recovering from a broken ankle and was surprised to see Millwall’s starting 11 for the last 2 games with them still in with a shout of the Prem next season . In both games I saw , they started & finished without a single black or Asian player on the pitch . All other London clubs had between 5 & 9 players who were Black or Asian on the pitch over their last 2 games .The area in and around Millwall is 61 % Black or Asian . So what’s the issue here ? It surely couldn’t be the club themselves instigating this so is it that Black and Asian players just give that club the biggest swerve possible . If so , how on Earth could they survive in the Prem with pitiful gates and a massive  pool of talent visibly steering well clear , presumably for reasons engrained over many decades ? 

Bit of an odd post, out of interest do Millwall have any of the demographics you selected to highlight in their squad? 

I'd also ask how many clubs have that many local players from around their ground playing for them, but I'd imagine even less when there are so many clubs in the nearby area 

The other random point, how does who has been in their team for the last two games have any impact on their potential crowds should they get promoted? 

[phantom]

37 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Interesting.  Never really looked at it this way, but some players might not want to join them because of race issues.  They’ve had Afobe, Romeo in recent years.  Mason Bennett is a current player.

Genuine question, apart from problems in the past are race issues worse at Millwall than any other club? 

[Dr Balls]

Certainly stands in contrast to other South London clubs. The Crystal Palace starting 11 recently has had 9 black outfield players, which is interesting in itself. Can’t imagine that happening 20 years ago, let alone 40 years ago. Back in the late 70s, it was big news when Ron Atkinson had “The Three Degrees” (Batson, Cunningham and Regis) at West Brom.

[Davefevs]

28 minutes ago, phantom said:

Genuine question, apart from problems in the past are race issues worse at Millwall than any other club? 

My work colleague is a Millwall ST holder and he’d tell you the racism stuff is still very much present, even with players like Afobe…which is hard to understand when the bloke is such a likeable character.

[Unan]

Biggest boo of the knee I heard was Millwall, by far 

[REDOXO]

2 hours ago, phantom said:

Genuine question, apart from problems in the past are race issues worse at Millwall than any other club? 

Yes!

[ExiledAjax]

At Watford away I sat a couple of seats along from a particularly disgusting City fan who liberally used racist and homophobic words directed at Watford players, fans, and stewards. Racism is alive in our fanbase as well as those of other clubs.

[ExiledAjax]

14 minutes ago, Percy Pig said:

At least our fan culture is apolitical... 

I have no idea for sure how "Steve" or any of his mates vote, although a couple did express opinions as to the size of any potential boat used by the stewards in arriving in the country.

[Robbored]

38 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

At Watford away I sat a couple of seats along from a particularly disgusting City fan who liberally used racist and homophobic words directed at Watford players, fans, and stewards. Racism is alive in our fanbase as well as those of other clubs.

It’s been since the days of Wayne Allison that I’ve heard any racist comments at AG. Three guys behind me were all very vocal in their racism but I nor anyone else took any notice of it but I cheered and then laughed when he scored…..and so did the three thickoes…………although they didn’t laugh………..

Glad to say that’s not something I hear at AG these days.

[Olé]

9 hours ago, Baldyman said:

In both games I saw , they started & finished without a single black or Asian player on the pitch . All other London clubs had between 5 & 9 players who were Black or Asian on the pitch over their last 2 games .The area in and around Millwall is 61 % Black or Asian . So what’s the issue here ? It surely couldn’t be the club themselves instigating this so is it that Black and Asian players just give that club the biggest swerve possible.

I live in the area immediately around the Den and my local is one of Millwall’s top pubs and I rub shoulders with their fans every week so I feel like I have a pretty good feel for them. Only part of what you say is true, a lot is just cliche.

• Yes the immediate area has the demographics you mention (more so African than Caribbean)
• All are passionate about football but largely favour Arsenal and Chelsea and watch games on TV
• This is really no different to any of the rest of us outside the top flight who lose local supporters
• But as an example they’ll come in a Millwall pub to watch their games - there is no intimidation
• There is very successful largely black youth football which has fed Arsenal, Chelsea and others
• One mistake people make is associating Millwall footballing output to this talent on the doorstep
• Millwall training ground is in Bromley (80% white) and youth academy is in Eltham (90% white)
• So they are drawing from families in SE suburbs and Kent - black families locally push for Prem 
• Millwall does have black supporters, they’re 50+ proper flat cap wearing old school cockneys
• Millwall fans are offensive but they do it to everyone, they slag Rowett off yet are in the playoffs
• A racist element is there like a lot of clubs but in my experience it’s not the old school or local lot

So there is absolutely nothing which means the club is specifically excluding anyone or trying to be something different. To be honest, as it relates to their team right now, from what I gather it’s actually just Rowett preferring to play solid one dimensional experienced footballers to grind out results to stay in the playoffs, not to stereotype but that’s leading to the sorts of line ups and faces you saw over the last several games.

As an example, I get Millwall tweets popping up on my Twitter just by being local, I’d seen this tweet earlier before I’d seen this thread - it’s referring to an 80 year old Millwall fan who reckons they should be playing Esse, a black 17 year old who has broken into the first team this season. Even he appears to be complaining that they’re not currently playing talent like this, and it sounds like most Millwall fans agree with the point.

 

Edited April 20, 2023 by Olé

[The Original OTIB]

2 hours ago, Olé said:

I live in the area immediately around the Den and my local is one of Millwall’s top pubs and I rub shoulders with their fans every week so I feel like I have a pretty good feel for them. Only part of what you say is true, a lot is just cliche.

• Yes the immediate area has the demographics you mention (more so African than Caribbean)
• All are passionate about football but largely favour Arsenal and Chelsea and watch games on TV
• This is really no different to any of the rest of us outside the top flight who lose local supporters
• But as an example they’ll come in a Millwall pub to watch their games - there is no intimidation
• There is very successful largely black youth football which has fed Arsenal, Chelsea and others
• One mistake people make is associating Millwall footballing output to this talent on the doorstep
• Millwall training ground is in Bromley (80% white) and youth academy is in Eltham (90% white)
• So they are drawing from families in SE suburbs and Kent - black families locally push for Prem 
• Millwall does have black supporters, they’re 50+ proper flat cap wearing old school cockneys
• Millwall fans are offensive but they do it to everyone, they slag Rowett off yet are in the playoffs
• A racist element is there like a lot of clubs but in my experience it’s not the old school or local lot

So there is absolutely nothing which means the club is specifically excluding anyone or trying to be something different. To be honest, as it relates to their team right now, from what I gather it’s actually just Rowett preferring to play solid one dimensional experienced footballers to grind out results to stay in the playoffs, not to stereotype but that’s leading to the sorts of line ups and faces you saw over the last several games.

As an example, I get Millwall tweets popping up on my Twitter just by being local, I’d seen this tweet earlier before I’d seen this thread - it’s referring to an 80 year old Millwall fan who reckons they should be playing Esse, a black 17 year old who has broken into the first team this season. Even he appears to be complaining that they’re not currently playing talent like this, and it sounds like most Millwall fans agree with the point.

 

Not Cockneys though, West Ham are the "Cockney Boys". South East London has its own identity, as you know.

[Kodjias Wrist]

4 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

At Watford away I sat a couple of seats along from a particularly disgusting City fan who liberally used racist and homophobic words directed at Watford players, fans, and stewards. Racism is alive in our fanbase as well as those of other clubs.

Strange, I have never heard racism at the gate or away directed at black people but have definitely heard homophobic and racism towards Middle Eastern ethnicities.

[ExiledAjax]

Just now, Kodjias Wrist said:

Strange, I have never heard racism at the gate or away directed at black people but have definitely heard homophobic and racism towards Middle Eastern ethnicities.

Good. I'm glad you've heard just a little bit of racism and that @Robbored hasn't heard any since the "days of Wayne Allison".

I heard it loud and clear at Watford. "Steve" calling Watford's black players "******* black ding-dongs", calling Asian stewards "Pakis" and then broadly referring to every Watford fan as a "bummer" because of Elton John. I also heard some of his mates laughing along. Blokes in their late 50s and early 60s if I had to guess.

Of course it doesn't mean that every City fan is racist, it doesn't even mean all his mates are - one in particular did at least encourage him to whisper his insults rather than shout them.

But it happened.

Mods - ban me for repeating the words if you need to. 

[Robbored]

20 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Good. I'm glad you've heard just a little bit of racism and that @Robbored hasn't heard any since the "days of Wayne Allison".

I heard it loud and clear at Watford. "Steve" calling Watford's black players "******* black ding-dongs", calling Asian stewards "Pakis" and then broadly referring to every Watford fan as a "bummer" because of Elton John. I also heard some of his mates laughing along. Blokes in their late 50s and early 60s if I had to guess.

Of course it doesn't mean that every City fan is racist, it doesn't even mean all his mates are - one in particular did at least encourage him to whisper his insults rather than shout them.

But it happened.

 

Just because I haven’t heard and racist comments for years at AG doesn’t mean that it never happens.  I prefer to believe that if such comments are heard that they’re treated with the distain from those around the perpetrators and are confronted or reported to the nearest steward.

These days everyone knows that any racist or homophobic comments are unacceptable and anyone spewing such racist vile would show what an ill educated bunch of thickoes they are of the worst kind.

 

[Son of Fred]

45 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

referring to every Watford fan as a "bummer" because of Elton John. I also heard some of his mates laughing along. Blokes in their late 50s and early 60s if I had to guess.

Seems to be my own age group that are more prone, shall we say to these points of view...

Generational in some way, some may say - just dumb, horrible & small minded people really.

[Rossi the Robin]

5 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

At Watford away I sat a couple of seats along from a particularly disgusting City fan who liberally used racist and homophobic words directed at Watford players, fans, and stewards. Racism is alive in our fanbase as well as those of other clubs.

I haven’t witnessed any at our club since the end of 80’s when I first started with City

[Sir Geoff]

I'm not sure what Inference the op is trying to make but I suspect Rowett picks the best 11 players to win each match regardless of heritage 

[ExiledAjax]

59 minutes ago, Son of Fred said:

Seems to be my own age group that are more prone, shall we say to these points of view...

Generational in some way, some may say - just dumb, horrible & small minded people really.

I've no idea. I'm not trying to score generational points at all. Just stating that was the age they looked to be.

Also, I know this thread was about Millwall but imo the lack of black players in a Millwall XI doesn't necessarily point to systemic racism at that club at all. Apologies to OP for high jacking it but I thought my story was relevant as it showed that racism is still around, and it can even be present in fans of a team who have a few black players.

1 hour ago, Rossi the Robin said:

I haven’t witnessed any at our club since the end of 80’s when I first started with City

That's great. I have, for the first time. Never at AG (but I don't get to AG much), but away.

[Super]

Is it a given that you have to pick black players?!

[luke_bristol]

Away fans seem to think they can get away with it, probably because they’re not linked to a seat and like a home fan ST holder is

 

The most recent race incident I’ve witnessed at the gate is Swansea fans chanting “Bristol zoo” at Evander Sno as he warmed up in front of them, but no doubt  it’s happened more recently than that. 

[Rossi the Robin]

1 hour ago, Percy Pig said:

Rather be a paki than a taff.

The wheels on his house go round and round

Small town in Asia

Whenever the Sihk referee officiated our games in the late 2000's. 

Dele Adebola was "Malteser head" to a bloke near me in the Dolman for years. 

It's not launching bananas at players or monkey chants, but it's still been there, bubbling under the surface. 

 

Tbf I can remember the 3rd one but not the others 

[PHILINFRANCE]

20 minutes ago, Rossi the Robin said:

Tbf I can remember the 3rd one but not the others 

The second one was sung at one of Southend's forwards.

I can't recall his name, but it shows how long ago it must have been - not that I can't remember his name, but that it was when we used to play against Southend, who are now non-League .

[Kodjias Wrist]

3 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

Good. I'm glad you've heard just a little bit of racism and that @Robbored hasn't heard any since the "days of Wayne Allison".

I heard it loud and clear at Watford. "Steve" calling Watford's black players "******* black ding-dongs", calling Asian stewards "Pakis" and then broadly referring to every Watford fan as a "bummer" because of Elton John. I also heard some of his mates laughing along. Blokes in their late 50s and early 60s if I had to guess.

Of course it doesn't mean that every City fan is racist, it doesn't even mean all his mates are - one in particular did at least encourage him to whisper his insults rather than shout them.

But it happened.

Mods - ban me for repeating the words if you need to. 

Its pathetic its still about. But football fans can be pretty stupid. I mean causing violence and aggro resulting in hundreds if not thousands of policemen and women every weekend away from their job, when they could coming down hard on the very people you are talking about.

Edited April 20, 2023 by Kodjias Wrist

[REDOXO]

8 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

At Watford away I sat a couple of seats along from a particularly disgusting City fan who liberally used racist and homophobic words directed at Watford players, fans, and stewards. Racism is alive in our fanbase as well as those of other clubs.

I think the operative word is ‘a’. 
 

As City supporters we are pretty mild, particularly at home. I have late 60s 70s and 80s on my CV. Abervan to the Welsh and monkey noises were the order of the day among mass punch ups which were often started by City fans in amongst visitors. We have come a long way to what are isolated incidents with individuals. 

3 hours ago, Percy Pig said:

Rather be a paki than a taff.

The wheels on his house go round and round

Small town in Asia

Whenever the Sihk referee officiated our games in the late 2000's. 

Dele Adebola was "Malteser head" to a bloke near me in the Dolman for years. 

It's not launching bananas at players or monkey chants, but it's still been there, bubbling under the surface. 

 

Bubbling under the surface are your words. Society has changed massively  as has our team. Unfortunately there is always going to be a few who have an axe to grind, but racism with our support is simply night and day from the St Paul’s years. 
 

Yes some chants are not perfect no doubt, but it’s not really that hostile and certainly not as hostile as smashing up a toilet every season and filming it! 

[Fordy62]

3 hours ago, Percy Pig said:

Rather be a paki than a taff.

The wheels on his house go round and round

Small town in Asia

Whenever the Sihk referee officiated our games in the late 2000's. 

Dele Adebola was "Malteser head" to a bloke near me in the Dolman for years. 

It's not launching bananas at players or monkey chants, but it's still been there, bubbling under the surface. 

 

Can you explain this one to me? I’ve not a ******* clue. 

[Red-Robbo]

16 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

Can you explain this one to me? I’ve not a ******* clue. 

I'm guessing it's an anti-gypsy song.

[phantom]

4 hours ago, Percy Pig said:

Rather be a paki than a taff.

The wheels on his house go round and round

Small town in Asia

Whenever the Sihk referee officiated our games in the late 2000's. 

Dele Adebola was "Malteser head" to a bloke near me in the Dolman for years. 

It's not launching bananas at players or monkey chants, but it's still been there, bubbling under the surface. 

 

Seems to be all in the past tense?

[ExiledAjax]

@REDOXO no, I'm sorry but the operative word is "particularly". This was a group of a dozen or so, all of whom were either actively joining with or, or passively allowing, racism and homophobic abuse. They were all abhorrent, but ringleader was "particularly" so.

I am also at fault for not being more forceful with my objection at the time. I could list all the reasons why I limited myself to raised eyebrows and a very quiet word to one of the more reasonable of the group, but the ain one is that I was a single, sober man contemplating telling a group of 12 boozed up and aggressive men to shut up. I ask for everyone's compassion in understanding why I stayed pretty quiet.

I've said that I do not intend to tar all City fans with the brush of racism, just as OP should not tar all Millwall just because they're starting XI is white. It happened. It's crap, and I've felt pretty crap about it at times this week.

I like football fans. I want them to be respected. I'm working to make that happen. Incidents like this, however isolated, shake my faith in that belief.

Edited April 20, 2023 by ExiledAjax