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It doesn't matter, but

slartibartfast

By slartibartfast
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ExiledAjax

ExiledAjax

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, slartibartfast said:

Ok ,makes sense.Is this a newish development ?

Not sure how new it is but if you read the EFL Handbook (Section 3, paragraph 9) then you see that league position is determined as follows:

1. Points;

2. Goal Difference; then

3. Goals Scored.

Normally that's enough, but at the start of a season we often have to go deeper into paragraph 9. When the above are equal you look at:

4. League record between the two teams in question, considering in order:

a) points gained against each other;

b) goal difference in games between each other; then

c) goals scored in games between each other.

But, again, even this can't separate teams like us and Preston who drew 1-1 in the only game we've played so far. So, we now look at:

5. Number of wins; 

6. Goals in away games; and

7. The provisions of paragraph 9.4 - which is a points system based on fouls, yellows, and reds.

If that's still not enough at the end of a season then it's a playoff.

So, basically right now it's Preston's away goal trumping out home goal, at step 6 above that gets them higher up.

Technically the alphabet never comes into it, but I think the BBC and other media outlets use it as a tiebreaker in order to display the table properly.

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Davefevs

Davefevs

Posted
Posted
5 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

Not sure how new it is but if you read the EFL Handbook (Section 3, paragraph 9) then you see that league position is determined as follows:

1. Points;

2. Goal Difference; then

3. Goals Scored.

Normally that's enough, but at the start of a season we often have to go deeper into paragraph 9. When the above are equal you look at:

4. League record between the two teams in question, considering in order:

a) points gained against each other;

b) goal difference in games between each other; then

c) goals scored in games between each other.

But, again, even this can't separate teams like us and Preston who drew 1-1 in the only game we've played so far. So, we now look at:

5. Number of wins; 

6. Goals in away games; and

7. The provisions of paragraph 9.4 - which is a points system based on fouls, yellows, and reds.

If that's still not enough at the end of a season then it's a playoff.

So, basically right now it's Preston's away goal trumping out home goal, at step 6 above that gets them higher up.

Technically the alphabet never comes into it, but I think the BBC and other media outlets use it as a tiebreaker in order to display the table properly.

I know it’s not the rules, but for my own purposes I ignore the league table until 2 games have been played, usually a team has played home and away and there is the sense of a league forming…not that it means anything.

The newspapers didn’t bother publishing a table until 4 games in back in the day.

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ExiledAjax

ExiledAjax

Posted
Posted
26 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I know it’s not the rules, but for my own purposes I ignore the league table until 2 games have been played, usually a team has played home and away and there is the sense of a league forming…not that it means anything.

The newspapers didn’t bother publishing a table until 4 games in back in the day.

In a similar way, and again for my own purposes, I avoid looking in the mirror until at least 2 hours of the day have passed.

The pedantic answer is of course that the table is meaningless until May, but that attitude leads to a dull winter doesn't it! A question was asked, and the answer given.

For my own purposes - I'm going to rank on points per game this season rather than raw points.

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Norn Iron

Norn Iron

Posted
Posted
47 minutes ago, slartibartfast said:

Um, because I wanted to know the rules, and if you saw the title why open it, or even more why comment ?

Because a mortal man can embark on is to sell a book. Are you all sitty comftybold two-square on your botty? Then I'll begin

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Bar BS3

Bar BS3

Posted
Posted
16 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

Not sure how new it is but if you read the EFL Handbook (Section 3, paragraph 9) then you see that league position is determined as follows:

1. Points;

2. Goal Difference; then

3. Goals Scored.

Normally that's enough, but at the start of a season we often have to go deeper into paragraph 9. When the above are equal you look at:

4. League record between the two teams in question, considering in order:

a) points gained against each other;

b) goal difference in games between each other; then

c) goals scored in games between each other.

But, again, even this can't separate teams like us and Preston who drew 1-1 in the only game we've played so far. So, we now look at:

5. Number of wins; 

6. Goals in away games; and

7. The provisions of paragraph 9.4 - which is a points system based on fouls, yellows, and reds.

If that's still not enough at the end of a season then it's a playoff.

So, basically right now it's Preston's away goal trumping out home goal, at step 6 above that gets them higher up.

Technically the alphabet never comes into it, but I think the BBC and other media outlets use it as a tiebreaker in order to display the table properly.

Interesting to know!

Is just my failing memory, or is it the case that when I was younger they didn't even produce league table until 3.? Games into the season.?

I could be imagining that - but I'm sure they never used to bother...

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ExiledAjax

ExiledAjax

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

Interesting to know!

Is just my failing memory, or is it the case that when I was younger they didn't even produce league table until 3.? Games into the season.?

I could be imagining that - but I'm sure they never used to bother...

I think @Davefevs mentioned the same up above. In a pre-internet world (apologies for presuming your age) it absolutely makes sense not to waste column inches with meaningless tables in August.

I found it interesting to see that alphabetical order isn't actually an official method of ranking teams. I suspect there's an unwritten rule that until game 46 has been played you use it in lieu of the playoff.

I also think it must be the disciplinary ranking system of the enigmatic "provision 9.4" that currently places us above Swansea. I've not broken it down forensically but we got 0 yellow and red cards and committed 10 fouls, whereas Swansea got 1 yellow and committed 9 fouls. Points are actually handed out for the nature of the foul/offence rather than whether it's a caution, a yellow, or a red, but I assume we have fewer points than Swansea and so we are above them. 

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Bar BS3

Bar BS3

Posted
Posted
10 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

I think @Davefevs mentioned the same up above. In a pre-internet world (apologies for presuming your age) it absolutely makes sense not to waste column inches with meaningless tables in August.

I found it interesting to see that alphabetical order isn't actually an official method of ranking teams. I suspect there's an unwritten rule that until game 46 has been played you use it in lieu of the playoff.

I also think it must be the disciplinary ranking system of the enigmatic "provision 9.4" that currently places us above Swansea. I've not broken it down forensically but we got 0 yellow and red cards and committed 10 fouls, whereas Swansea got 1 yellow and committed 9 fouls. Points are actually handed out for the nature of the foul/offence rather than whether it's a caution, a yellow, or a red, but I assume we have fewer points than Swansea and so we are above them. 

Yes that would make sense - it was probably a pre-internet thing.

In reality, exact league positions don't matter until the end of games 46 & should anything be that tight between 2 meaningful placings - then the coverage & awareness of the deeper rules would well known before kick off.

I was aware of it tracking back to games against each other, but didn't know that it then took disciplinary records into account.

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PHILINFRANCE

PHILINFRANCE

Posted
Posted
10 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

I think @Davefevs mentioned the same up above. In a pre-internet world (apologies for presuming your age) it absolutely makes sense not to waste column inches with meaningless tables in August.

I found it interesting to see that alphabetical order isn't actually an official method of ranking teams. I suspect there's an unwritten rule that until game 46 has been played you use it in lieu of the playoff.

I also think it must be the disciplinary ranking system of the enigmatic "provision 9.4" that currently places us above Swansea. I've not broken it down forensically but we got 0 yellow and red cards and committed 10 fouls, whereas Swansea got 1 yellow and committed 9 fouls. Points are actually handed out for the nature of the foul/offence rather than whether it's a caution, a yellow, or a red, but I assume we have fewer points than Swansea and so we are above them. 

I was going to suggest that this was due to alphabetical reasons, but that would sort of bring us full circle ?.

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