SC&T Meeting with BCFC 13/09/23

[Engvall’s Splinter]

3 hours ago, Hello Dave said:

Aren’t they basically owned by one person? Surely all these companies are made up as a tax fiddle? Slag Lansdown off as much as you want, but the bloke ain’t stupid where finances are concerned!

Didn’t he sanction the Kasey Palmer deal?

[phantom]

42 minutes ago, Henry said:

The football club is absolutely nothing like when a promoter hires the stadium for a concert. You’re being fobbed off.

 I appreciate you only have so much clout and you can’t make them give you the answers you want. But you don’t have to accept the spin. 

That's certainly the way it was explained to us, out of interest where do you believe it to be different? 

I'd certainly ask a question in the future for clarification

30 minutes ago, Wedontplayinblue said:

Henry, they are though, the football club pay rent for each game they play at Ashton gate.

It’s all ran by Bristol sport, yes the club would have some input but they certainly don’t have any control over it (in theory)

I know it’s different as we view it as our home, but it is for the women, the rugby, women’s rugby if they play there? 

This

[James54De]

9 hours ago, Ian M said:

It would be interesting to see just how many tickets are left in the South Stand for non-season-card holders the moment Sheffield Wednesday tickets are released. Currently the furthest away fixtures (Ipswich and Coventry) have less than 50 available in the SS. It might be a negligible amount of money lost compared to the goodwill they would generate for our away supporters.

See. I don’t understand this point. It’s more than fair to charge more for South Stand seats than Atyeo. The difference is facilities is huge. If this is the case then why are we allowed to charge more for the Lansdown than they Dolman. 

9 hours ago, phantom said:

I was actually surprised how much to do with the stadium etc is now out of Bristol Citys control and ran by Bristol Sport 

We're just tenants hiring the stadium like anyone else holding an event there

We have requested to bring people from Bristol Sport not only to future meetings but they've also got action points from this meeting to respond to 

No. We’re not. Bristol City holdings own the stadium. Bristol Sport provide a service to the stadium. Been covered hundreds of times. Zzzz

[James54De]

36 minutes ago, Wedontplayinblue said:

Henry, they are though, the football club pay rent for each game they play at Ashton gate.

It’s all ran by Bristol sport, yes the club would have some input but they certainly don’t have any control over it (in theory)

I know it’s different as we view it as our home, but it is for the women, the rugby, women’s rugby if they play there? 

No they don’t. Bristol City Holdings own the stadium. There might be internal transactions, but no involvement of Bristol Sport. 

[phantom]

2 minutes ago, James54De said:

No they don’t. Bristol City Holdings own the stadium. There might be internal transactions, but no involvement of Bristol Sport. 

So why do Bristol City pay to rent ground etc etc

We're discussing Bristol Sport dictates the pricing in the ground, all of which is out of our control 

 

4 minutes ago, James54De said:

See. I don’t understand this point. It’s more than fair to charge more for South Stand seats than Atyeo. The difference is facilities is huge. If this is the case then why are we allowed to charge more for the Lansdown than they Dolman. 

Because away supporters don't sit in either stand 

[James54De]

13 minutes ago, phantom said:

So why do Bristol City pay to rent ground etc etc

We're discussing Bristol Sport dictates the pricing in the ground, all of which is out of our control 

 

Because away supporters don't sit in either stand 

Bristol City Football Club Ltd. may pay Ashton Gate Limited a fee. Ashton Gate Limited is, however, owned by Bristol City Holdings, as is Bristol City Football Club Ltd. 
 

Bristol Sport provide a service, running day to day operations at Ashton Gate. 
 

Bristol City Football Club Ltd, or Bristol City Holdings do not pay rent to Bristol Sport. They may pay Bristol Sport a fee to provide the service. However, match day turnover goes into the clubs pocket. 

Edited September 15, 2023 by James54De

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, James54De said:

Bristol City Football Club Ltd. may pay Ashton Gate Limited a fee. Ashton Gate Limited is, however, owned by Bristol City Holdings, as is Bristol City Football Club Ltd. 
 

Bristol Sport provide a service, running day to day operations at Ashton Gate. 
 

Bristol City Football Club Ltd, or Bristol City Holdings do not pay rent. They may pay Bristol Sport a fee to provide the service. However, match day turnover goes into the clubs pocket. 

Yes, BCFC pay AG rent (Bears also pay AG rent too).

BCFC pay a “service fee” to BS for things like ticketing, call centre ops, marketing, etc, inc Crayons!!

[Kid in the Riot]

17 minutes ago, James54De said:

Bristol City Football Club Ltd. may pay Ashton Gate Limited a fee. Ashton Gate Limited is, however, owned by Bristol City Holdings, as is Bristol City Football Club Ltd. 
 

Bristol Sport provide a service, running day to day operations at Ashton Gate. 
 

Bristol City Football Club Ltd, or Bristol City Holdings do not pay rent to Bristol Sport. They may pay Bristol Sport a fee to provide the service. However, match day turnover goes into the clubs pocket. 

Thanks - that makes more sense. Of course we pay Ashton Gate Ltd the rent, as they technically own the ground.

[Jeez]

5 hours ago, sinenomine said:

FYI any licensed premises must provide free tap water on request

TBF they do, our kids always go to the bar and get pints of water & staff are always cool about it.

[Wedontplayinblue]

1 hour ago, James54De said:

No they don’t. Bristol City Holdings own the stadium. There might be internal transactions, but no involvement of Bristol Sport. 

The football club 100% pay rent for using the stadium, they are a tenant who have no control over the running of the ground. 

Edited September 15, 2023 by Wedontplayinblue

[Barrs Court Red]

So loss making Bristol City, pay rent to a loss making stadium company. Why do Bristol Sport seemingly set the prices? I’m struggling to understand the model in some ways.

I get the shared services angle, but it doesn’t seem like an org that understands its customer base? Classic Steve I guess. 

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Thanks - that makes more sense. Of course we pay Ashton Gate Ltd the rent, as they technically own the ground.

FYI Bristol City Holdings is a non-trading entity. 

[Leveller]

6 hours ago, Hello Dave said:

Aren’t they basically owned by one person? Surely all these companies are made up as a tax fiddle? Slag Lansdown off as much as you want, but the bloke ain’t stupid where finances are concerned!

What would be the point of a “tax fiddle” where there are just big losses?

Surely it’s just to protect the stadium if the sports club goes bust? That seems the sensible reason.

[phantom]

10 hours ago, James54De said:

Bristol City Football Club Ltd. may pay Ashton Gate Limited a fee. Ashton Gate Limited is, however, owned by Bristol City Holdings, as is Bristol City Football Club Ltd. 
 

Bristol Sport provide a service, running day to day operations at Ashton Gate. 
 

Bristol City Football Club Ltd, or Bristol City Holdings do not pay rent to Bristol Sport. They may pay Bristol Sport a fee to provide the service. However, match day turnover goes into the clubs pocket. 

That's how I envisioned it to be 

Certainly interesting that the phrasing about Bristol Sport was referenced on more than one occasion 

[ExiledAjax]

13 hours ago, Hello Dave said:

Aren’t they basically owned by one person? Surely all these companies are made up as a tax fiddle? Slag Lansdown off as much as you want, but the bloke ain’t stupid where finances are concerned!

Tax may play a part, but the main tax saving is higher up at Guernsey level. 

One of the main reasons to have the stadium owned by a company separate from the Club is so that should the Club go bust the stadium is protected as it's not an asset of the insolvent company and so cannot be sold to satisfy creditors. That's actually quite prudent, and is the reason why clubs stated hiving their stadia off 20 or so years ago.

Some exploited this (Sheff Wed, Derby etc) and 'sold' the stadium for overinflated prices. But, the rationale is sound.

BCFC do pay a ground charge to AG Ltd, but as both companies are owned by BCFC Holdings, and it's Holdings that report accounts for FFP purposes, that payment nets out to neutral and so has no effect on us financially.

It's really, honestly, not really anything to worry about.

Edited September 16, 2023 by ExiledAjax

[bcfc01]

11 hours ago, Wedontplayinblue said:

Henry, they are though, the football club pay rent for each game they play at Ashton gate.

It’s all ran by Bristol sport, yes the club would have some input but they certainly don’t have any control over it (in theory)

I know it’s different as we view it as our home, but it is for the women, the rugby, women’s rugby if they play there? 

The stadium is run by Ashton Gate Ltd not Bristol Sport and Ashton Gate Ltd own Ashton gate.

Bristol sport own nothing, they are a facilities management company in all but name, providing services across the different companies to save the cost of each company providing their own services.

It seems that some inside the club don't realise this which comes as no surprise to me.

 

[thatcham red]

The main point here is not necessarily ownership, but that  the football club (and hence fans) feel like tenants in a stadium that is multi purpose. Unlike most other arrangements like this, we have no choice.

I hear the word "group" used increasingly in meetings and it figures in job titles as well. The challenge is working out who has ultimate sign off on the things that most matter to us fans.

Cheers

Stu

 

[IAmNick]

I reckon a few things could be true here and that people probably aren't lying - but are perhaps deflecting a bit.

It wouldn't surprise me if colloquially in the club everything else is just "Bristol sport" - I've worked in quite a few different organisations and that's just kind of the thing that happens. They should try and do better when talking to outsiders but I doubt it was an intentional attempt to mislead.

I also think that while strictly speaking City might be renting the ground, to imply they're at the same level of influence as me renting one of the suites or someone playing a one off concert is a bit of a piss take.

I can believe comms is a crap and there's a lot of "decision by committee" when you're involving a few different organisations (each probably with "managers" representing them wanting to show they're actually very important and need to be heard) but come on. We made this structure intentionally and by design. We should have the means to get stuff done that the club needs, and quickly. It shouldn't be going on a pile on someone's desk under Joe Bloggs thought the chairs in room 7 were uncomfortable or whatever.

My guess is there are a fair few around the club frustrated by the beurocracy and they're just trying to make it clear it's a pain, as they're the ones who then have to face up to the fans due to things outside of their control. I'd guess they'd probably be quite happy for some of the people in the other organisations to be there and face the criticisms and questions directly. It might even help get things done.

[bcfc01]

Just now, thatcham red said:

The main point here is not necessarily ownership, but that  the football club (and hence fans) feel like tenants in a stadium that is multi purpose. Unlike most other arrangements like this, we have no choice.

I hear the word "group" used increasingly in meetings and it figures in job titles as well. The challenge is working out who has ultimate sign off on the things that most matter to us fans.

Cheers

Stu

 

Best of luck with that !

 

[Wedontplayinblue]

32 minutes ago, bcfc01 said:

The stadium is run by Ashton Gate Ltd not Bristol Sport and Ashton Gate Ltd own Ashton gate.

Bristol sport own nothing, they are a facilities management company in all but name, providing services across the different companies to save the cost of each company providing their own services.

It seems that some inside the club don't realise this which comes as no surprise to me.

 

Yes you are correct there, I don’t think I’ve said the club pay rent to Bristol sport?

I was just saying that the football club have been paying rent to play at Ashton gate for a long time, long before the creation of Bristol sport (who I know they don’t pay rent to).

 

[ExiledAjax]

14 minutes ago, thatcham red said:

The main point here is not necessarily ownership, but that  the football club (and hence fans) feel like tenants in a stadium that is multi purpose. Unlike most other arrangements like this, we have no choice.

I hear the word "group" used increasingly in meetings and it figures in job titles as well. The challenge is working out who has ultimate sign off on the things that most matter to us fans.

Cheers

Stu

Stu, does the SC&T ever speak to other Trusts and Supporter Clubs about similar situations?

Many other clubs have a set up very similar to us. Just one well known one is Spurs.

Big shiny new stadium that isn't owned by the club but by a sister company. Stadium is used for a huge number of other commercial events, including other sports. Ultimately it's all owned by an offshore company and some public individuals. How do they sort things out? How do they make sure the football fans feel prioritised on the right things?

Honest question that I don't think I've asked you before. 

[bcfc01]

10 minutes ago, Wedontplayinblue said:

Yes you are correct there, I don’t think I’ve said the club pay rent to Bristol sport?

I was just saying that the football club have been paying rent to play at Ashton gate for a long time, long before the creation of Bristol sport (who I know they don’t pay rent to).

 

Apologies, I just used your post to get a point across.

[Wedontplayinblue]

4 minutes ago, bcfc01 said:

Apologies, I just used your post to get a point across.

I thought so, and worded better than my post!  
 

You are right, it is awfully confusing how it all links together.

[steviestevieneville]

On 15/09/2023 at 10:01, phantom said:

https://www.bristolcitysupporters.org/meeting-with-bcfc-13-09-23/

Following a meeting on 28 July 2023, Stuart Rogers, James Nicholls and Mark Newman of the Supporters Club & Trust alongside SLO Jerry Tocknell met with the football club’s Head of Communications Dave Barton on Wednesday 13 September 2023.

CEO Phil Alexander gave his apologies.

Actions confirmed from the last meeting included 30% increases to disabled parking being reversed and confirmation that the away kit will be available within the next 2 weeks.

 

Kits and training wear 

Again we discussed replacing the robin crest with the bird. Feelings are still running high amongst supporters about both the lack of communication, the generic image replacing the badge and the actual design. We suggested that utilising a focus group of supporters in the development of the design would have helped the Club foresee supporters’ views and concerns ahead of release. Last season’s 3rd kit sold out. A request was made for the sales figures for the current kit.

 

Reciprocal away ticket prices 

We previously requested that reciprocal away ticket pricing be considered, especially for the Leeds fixture at Elland Road. Leeds recently charged Sheffield Wednesday fans £47 for an adult ticket. The football club are in negotiations with Leeds about this. It is a complex issue. As laid down by EFL guidelines, the same price applied to away fans must also be applied to home fans in similar/opposite stands. We wait to hear.

 

Fees on away tickets and coach travel

We had previously raised the issue of fees for away match and coach travel, that they should be per transaction and not per ticket. The football club has raised this with Bristol Sport, who are responsible for issuing tickets on behalf of the football club, as a matter of concern and we await a response.

 

Catering

Both of the recent surveys for the men’s and women’s teams supporters identified issues with the cost, quality and choices available for food and drink at Ashton Gate. In addition, it now costs £2.90 for a bottle of water, making it quite expensive, especially for families in addition to other matchday costs. Once again, this is a Bristol Sport provided service and we have asked for this to be raised directly with them.

 

Match commentary

An exiled supporter advised that following a recent update, the RobinsTV app no longer has the facility to play audio commentaries, for which fans pay £40 a season. This is something that can only really be tested on matchdays. In addition, the person involved will be put in touch directly with the football club to try and resolve this issue.

 

Rewards scheme

It was noted that the loyalty programme has a large dependency on retail, some not accessible to all ages. There is also a sense that there is little engagement in it, so some statistics on this would be helpful to prove/disprove. Charlie Lincoln, Group Head of Marketing & Ticketing, has been invited to the next monthly Supporters Club & Trust meeting to understand this better.

 

Finally

The theme running through what we hear regularly about digital ticketing, catering, loyalty schemes, car parking, engagement with exiles and Ashton Gate becoming cashless is that they are not always very inclusive. There are some really good initiatives that fans love and engage with, so all credit to those. However, it seems to be that some of the most basic elements of being a Bristol City fan like ticketing, kits, accessibility, eating & drinking cause the most upset and frustration. Just as importantly, the provision of these services are effectively outsourced to Bristol Sport, which includes the complete management of the stadium. So, the decision-making is controlled by a whole different board of directors, through which the football club has seemingly less and less influence.

More follow up meetings are planned, albeit getting to the bottom of these issues and influencing change could be an arduous process.

No reflection @phantom obviously but I stopped reading after seeing the CEO didn’t turn up . That’s the whole point isn’t it? Sending the comms bloke . Cope out . The lansdowns couldn’t give a flying **** about us. 

[James54De]

16 hours ago, Wedontplayinblue said:

The football club 100% pay rent for using the stadium, they are a tenant who have no control over the running of the ground. 

Read below. The club, effectively, pay rent to its own parent company. No big deal. The club as good as own the stadium. Not difficult. We are certainly not “a tenant”. 

7 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

Tax may play a part, but the main tax saving is higher up at Guernsey level. 

One of the main reasons to have the stadium owned by a company separate from the Club is so that should the Club go bust the stadium is protected as it's not an asset of the insolvent company and so cannot be sold to satisfy creditors. That's actually quite prudent, and is the reason why clubs stated hiving their stadia off 20 or so years ago.

Some exploited this (Sheff Wed, Derby etc) and 'sold' the stadium for overinflated prices. But, the rationale is sound.

BCFC do pay a ground charge to AG Ltd, but as both companies are owned by BCFC Holdings, and it's Holdings that report accounts for FFP purposes, that payment nets out to neutral and so has no effect on us financially.

It's really, honestly, not really anything to worry about.

 

[ExiledAjax]

19 minutes ago, James54De said:

Read below. The club, effectively, pay rent to its own parent company. No big deal. The club as good as own the stadium. Not difficult. We are certainly not “a tenant”. 

It's all about language. 

When is rent not rent? When it's a service charge. When is a landlord not a landlord? When it's a management services company. When is a tenant not a tenant? When it rents from its sister company.

And actually, that's a good analogy at the end there. Yes we're technically, legally, a 'tenant', but it's best of thought of as renting a house that your parents own but your brother/sister manages, rather than some random landlord you don't know (let's assume it's a good family relationship).

Technically your parents/sibling could terminate your lease and kick you out. But they won't, and they're far less likely to do so than a random landlord would be. You've not got strict control, but if they kick you out then that's it. You're not paying for mum and dad's retirement.

Unfortunately the Club are as confused with their language as some on here are. 

[Wedontplayinblue]

3 hours ago, James54De said:

Read below. The club, effectively, pay rent to its own parent company. No big deal. The club as good as own the stadium. Not difficult. We are certainly not “a tenant”. 

 

The club don’t as good as own the company do they,

The rugby pay rent to the same company as the football club, the football club have no more control over the ground than the rugby do. 

[James54De]

12 minutes ago, Wedontplayinblue said:

The club don’t as good as own the company do they,

The rugby pay rent to the same company as the football club, the football club have no more control over the ground than the rugby do. 

Bristol City Holdings essentially own the stadium. 

[Wedontplayinblue]

35 minutes ago, James54De said:

Bristol City Holdings essentially own the stadium. 

I think we are going round in circles James, I imagine the football club have as much right with the ground as the rugby club do, unless there are different agreements in place.

Bristol City Holdings are not the football club.

Regardless of who owns the ground, it’s neither the football or rugby club, men or women, who both pay rent/service charge/maintenance fee to use the said ground.  

Edited September 16, 2023 by Wedontplayinblue

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, James54De said:

Bristol City Holdings essentially own the stadium. 

Ashton Gate Ltd own the Stadium

Ashton Gate Ltd and Bristol City Ltd are owned by Bristol City Holdings Ltd, a non-trading entity.  Pula / Lansdown owns it all.