Naismith tackle…

[Charlie BCFC]

12 minutes ago, ChippenhamRed said:

So you’re not even willing to acknowledge the possibility that there was contact with the player, from behind, before contact with the ball - therefore making it at the very least a debatable decision?

No, he’s won the ball clearly, yes he’s got his leg round him but that should never ever be given as a penalty especially from where the ref is positioned

[stephenkibby.]

What's wrong with the old,he got there soon as he could when wiping out one of the opposition. ?

[AppyDAZE]

1 hour ago, Roe said:

Feel like this is one of those that's impossible to answer as per Fevs post

Ultimately it worked well for us so was a great tackle. Naismith himself was absolutely terrible second half though imo

At the time, convinced it was a brilliant tackle. Watching the clip back, he certainly takes the player first (marginally) so a pen?

As said before, the law isn't particualarly clear on these sort of situations.

Agree about how Naismith gradually got more and more outplayed.

Will never be convinced that he is a centre back. Good footballer though, the best passer at the cfub. A conundrum.

Edited September 16, 2023 by AppyDAZE

[BrizzleRed]

6 hours ago, Harry said:

It’s a penalty. I thought so at the time and I think so after watching the replay. 
Naismith comes from slightly behind and comes through the man to get the ball. 
If that was against us, we’d be moaning about not getting penalties. 
 

But we don’t get penalties, so we’d be right.  

To anyone moaning on the West Brom side, I’d say tough shit, now you know what it’s like for us!

To anyone overanalysing it from our side, I’d just remind them of how many far more clear cut ones we’ve had waved away in recent years.

 

[MarcusX]

13 hours ago, formerly known as ivan said:

Seeing a thread on Vyner’s unbelievable challenge in the first half, I thought Naismith’s in the second half is worth a discussion.

For me, it’s a clear pen. Straight through the man to win the ball. A cliché saying in football but anywhere else on the pitch and that’s a free kick.

Got away with one on that occasion I feel.

Not sure that’s true.

There are some things that happen where you could say that but don’t think this is one. In real time it’s a great tackle. If you review it 100 times in slo mo then it becomes questionable but as Fevs says, hard to say either way.

I think if we had VAR it could have been a pen.

 

[MarcusX]

12 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

I thought he was lenient towards them. That break where they tried 3 times to stop us with fouls, then Cam was pulled back but got up & Ref waves play on. Nailed on booking if he stops play, why not after he waves advantage ?
Yeboah getting dragged then throws the bloke off and he gets penalised . 
Bell flattened but nothing ? 
Just seemed to lean their way  a bit IMO.

I don’t recall the exact one with Cam, but if the yellow was going to be for stopping an attack - and the ref plays advantage and the attack continues - then no yellow is given.

[Engvall’s Splinter]

12 hours ago, TV Tom said:

Thought the ref got barely a thing wrong despite all the diving from both teams, best ref I’ve seen for a long time

Knight and Williams were in particular culpable here. I don’t like it. 

[Rocking Red Cyril]

12 hours ago, pj76 said:

Also allowed WB player to throttle Yeboah and squish him into the ground

Yes that was awful by ref and linesmen 

Who had a decent game 

[Rocking Red Cyril]

4 minutes ago, Engvall’s Splinter said:

Knight and Williams were in particular culpable here. I don’t like it. 

Yes I noticed this knight and Williams where going down on any contact or perceived contact. They both had bloody Games. But  their falling over was pathetic. Not good enough sort it out. I hope that was not a tactic from NP. Shamefully at best if it was .

[formerly known as ivan]

49 minutes ago, MarcusX said:

Not sure that’s true.

There are some things that happen where you could say that but don’t think this is one. In real time it’s a great tackle. If you review it 100 times in slo mo then it becomes questionable but as Fevs says, hard to say either way.

I think if we had VAR it could have been a pen.

 

For me it was a a clear pen in real time. The angle in which the tackle was made meant he would have to had come through the player to win the ball. Having seen the replays I still believe this. Not complaining about it, just think we got away with one.

[1960maaan]

37 minutes ago, MarcusX said:

I don’t recall the exact one with Cam, but if the yellow was going to be for stopping an attack - and the ref plays advantage and the attack continues - then no yellow is given.

Yes, Cam was going on a run and seemed to get dragged down. He managed to get up and carry on, now I thought he should have gone back and booked him after all it's the same foul whether he can go on or not. I didn't know that was the rule.

21 minutes ago, Rocking Red Cyril said:

Yes I noticed this knight and Williams where going down on any contact or perceived contact. They both had bloody Games. But  their falling over was pathetic. Not good enough sort it out. I hope that was not a tactic from NP. Shamefully at best if it was .

It's an annoying part of the game and one that everyone plays. Scott was a master at it and Refs fall for it 9 times out of 10 so it's going to carry on for a while yet.

[Sleepy1968]

4 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

Yes, Cam was going on a run and seemed to get dragged down. He managed to get up and carry on, now I thought he should have gone back and booked him after all it's the same foul whether he can go on or not. I didn't know that was the rule.

It's an annoying part of the game and one that everyone plays. Scott was a master at it and Refs fall for it 9 times out of 10 so it's going to carry on for a while yet.

Scott stopped doing it during last season, and looked a better player for it. I think he twigged that him in possession of the ball was a better scenario than us having a cheap free kick.

[Mr Popodopolous]

7 hours ago, BrizzleRed said:

But we don’t get penalties, so we’d be right.  

To anyone moaning on the West Brom side, I’d say tough shit, now you know what it’s like for us!

To anyone overanalysing it from our side, I’d just remind them of how many far more clear cut ones we’ve had waved away in recent years.

 

Yep when you put it like that, we are well in debit still- we have bad some bad ones awarded against us too in the last few years.

Not sure this was a penalty in any event but this season will see matters even out then it's about time.

[Red-Robbo]

15 hours ago, joe jordans teeth said:

The ref was good to be fair today,allowed tackles that would be pulled up elsewhere 

 

Compared to recent horrors, I agree.

Still a nonsense that he penalised Yeboah for the dreadful foul of being put in a headlock by their defender and wriggling free. The youngster had a clear run on goal as well. 

Edited September 17, 2023 by Red-Robbo

[sugarwray]

2 hours ago, MarcusX said:

I don’t recall the exact one with Cam, but if the yellow was going to be for stopping an attack - and the ref plays advantage and the attack continues - then no yellow is given.

I had the same thought, when play is waved on, the player who commits a yellow card offence tends (not always but is more likely) to escape punishment, especially if the move ends in a goal. 

[pillred]

16 hours ago, formerly known as ivan said:

Seeing a thread on Vyner’s unbelievable challenge in the first half, I thought Naismith’s in the second half is worth a discussion.

For me, it’s a clear pen. Straight through the man to win the ball. A cliché saying in football but anywhere else on the pitch and that’s a free kick.

Got away with one on that occasion I feel.

Thank god you weren't the ref then as that would have been unfair, to say the least, I think you will find yourself in a minority of one on this and I have not read any of the other replies yet.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Loads of West Brom fans day penalty fwiw but then I suppose they would say that.

Thinking not penalty but then would we be wanting it at the other end.

[Ian M]

15 hours ago, Bris Red said:

Never a penalty for me either. I get that feeling had it of been in the Prem though and VAR would probably of given it. Certainly seen those types of challenges given in the Prem through VAR..

Depends. Firstly on the on-field decision of the referee. If we were playing Man City, Liverpool or Arsenal, and the penalty hadn't been awarded, for sure, VAR would tell the ref to review and the ref would be a good little soldier and award them a retrospective penalty. If we were playing Burnley, Luton or Sheffield United, VAR would back the ref's decision and not ask him to review. 

In all cases, had the ref awarded it, VAR would not have contested it.

15 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

I thought he was lenient towards them. That break where they tried 3 times to stop us with fouls, then Cam was pulled back but got up & Ref waves play on. Nailed on booking if he stops play, why not after he waves advantage ?
Yeboah getting dragged then throws the bloke off and he gets penalised . 
Bell flattened but nothing ? 
Just seemed to lean their way  a bit IMO.

I was listening to their commentary and they were worried that Molumby, who had committed to definite yellow card offences during that passage of play, might actually be carded for both when the ball went dead. They theorised that play went on so long, the referee forgot.

[Davefevs]

3 hours ago, MarcusX said:

Not sure that’s true.

There are some things that happen where you could say that but don’t think this is one. In real time it’s a great tackle. If you review it 100 times in slo mo then it becomes questionable but as Fevs says, hard to say either way.

I think if we had VAR it could have been a pen.

 

I think when a player tackles in that situation, on that angle, and you see a clear play on the ball, the ball completely change direction based on that contact of player on ball, I think most refs aren’t thinking about whether he might’ve got a “bit of leg” first.

You’re probably right that VAR gives it, if it’s Liverpool, Man City etc.  I wonder if it would be true if it was Luton, or Sheffield Utd???

The big dilemma is “how much contact is allowed”…and this is a huge one for me.  Yesterday’s ref allowed it to be a physical game, a fair, but physical one.  There were some good honest tackles where play was waved on despite contact.  So having reffed the game in that vain for 90 minutes, players adjust, and maybe that influences Kal’s decision to go for it?

THIS IS WHY STOCKLEY PARK IS BAD.  They don’t take into account how the ref has reffed the rest of the game.

If you’re being reffed by Oliver Langford / Keith Stroud, you don’t make that challenge, because you know he can’t wait to be the centre of attention.

 

So, on reflection this morning…NO PEN…because of how the ref reffed it.

 

Ah, but what about the laws / rules…ref’s interpretation imho.

[formerly known as ivan]

1 hour ago, pillred said:

Thank god you weren't the ref then as that would have been unfair, to say the least, I think you will find yourself in a minority of one on this and I have not read any of the other replies yet.

So if it was the other way around there is no chance you would be calling for a penalty?

[Offside]

In real time yesterday (albeit from my seat at the other end of the ground) it didn’t look like a pen because of the obvious change of direction of the ball when Naismith made the tackle. Looking at the footage, VAR might have given it, but as @Davefevs has pointed out, that would have been contrary to the way the game had been reffed (and I thought overall the ref was good yesterday). 

I really don’t like the way VAR can over-complicate things to the extent where these grey areas occur. There are justifiable reasons for arguing that a penalty should have been given.  But in real time it looked like a good tackle, Naismith got the ball and the ref’s decision to not give the penalty was sound in my opinion. 

[pillred]

3 hours ago, formerly known as ivan said:

So if it was the other way around there is no chance you would be calling for a penalty?

No absolutely not, or in my opinion, it would make any attempt at a tackle redundant, if that had been given why would any defender ever bother to try to stop an opposing player from going passed him, they may as well say after you Claude.

[hertsexile]

Great tackle even the referee felt it was good. Therefore no penalty as the man that counts waved play on. A good call from referee. 
Probably one of the best referees we have had for a while 

[Rob k]

Pen all day long for me 

[alexukhc]

We was lucky

[formerly known as ivan]

2 hours ago, pillred said:

No absolutely not, or in my opinion, it would make any attempt at a tackle redundant, if that had been given why would any defender ever bother to try to stop an opposing player from going passed him, they may as well say after you Claude.

Not at all. Take Vyner’s tackle in the first half. Element of risk involved but a fantastic, clean tackle. Completely different angle to the one Naismith had to come in from.

[Davefevs]

11 minutes ago, formerly known as ivan said:

Not at all. Take Vyner’s tackle in the first half. Element of risk involved but a fantastic, clean tackle. Completely different angle to the one Naismith had to come in from.

Vyner’s angle was worse…from behind.

Naismith’s was almost side on.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Corberan and his biggest gripe interestingly was the apparent handball by Vyner. Sliding handball claim on 74 mins.

[formerly known as ivan]

41 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Vyner’s angle was worse…from behind.

Naismith’s was almost side on.

From behind yes, but he could get to the ball without going through the player. Could have had consequences if he got it wrong but timed to perfection.

Naismith might have been side on but clearly had to go through the player to win it. No matter how many times I see it, it’s always taking out the player before winning the ball.