Pearson Post Match

[EstoniaTallinnRed]

On 21/10/2023 at 21:50, bexhill reds said:

What I find odd is that SL comes from the financial services industry where there are always objectional and difficult individuals working for companies yet they get kept on because they make the money and the results.

I don’t understand why SL does not run the club in the same way as in the business world where he clearly has been successful. He does not employ Pearson to be a yes man, he was brought in to get the club out of self-inflicted mire which clearly he’s been doing, so not to extend the contract or at least start a conversation about it does make you think that this is a more personal issue rather than a football one.

I have heard that Hargreaves was the driving force behind the business, so it's not surprising that SL doesn't have the acumen to take City to the top. He's a money man and that's all that matters, seeing what's happening in front of him. doesn't make any difference, as long as he gets what he wants. Which I think like lot's on here, is to sell the club as soon as he can and retire to his tax haven.

[Bazooka Joe]

27 minutes ago, Wilksi said:

What is exactly wrong with Nigels back?

I believe he is probably being stabbed in the back by our owner and his enfant terrible.

Et tu Steve & Jon ?

 

[Sheltons Army]

5 minutes ago, Bazooka Joe said:

I believe he is probably being stabbed in the back by our owner and his enfant terrible.

Et tu Steve & Jon ?

 

.......In the Heneiken Suite ......

 

....... With a crayon.......

[ExiledAjax]

14 minutes ago, The Journalist said:

So, to conclude this waffling, there IS some sense in moving on at the end of this three-and-a-bit-year period and bringing in some fresh eyes to make the next push. We are trending upwards and that’s arguably a good time to change. And many of us were in favour of this - in principle - three years ago. We predicted it.

But now we’ve arrived here it just feels wrong, it feels slightly unfair on the manager and at best seems tone deaf to the supporters. That’s the bit (I think) we’re all uncomfortable with.

Thanks for a valuable contribution, and for not discounting my views. It's appreciated.

I'll just quote your conclusion if I may, and will say that yes, I've stood on this soapbox of "let's take time and try and undergo a patient and well managed change" for a while. Maybe not for 3 years (I honestly cannot remember really) but certainly since Pearson had established himself.

I do agree with much of what you set out, and in fact much of what others say on here. He's done a good job.

All I question is whether a job with such importance should be given/extended on the basis of "fairness". The poll yesterday used the word "deserves". I question that. I don't think that this job, or any job really, should be decided because someone "deserves" something. If it's offered to Pearson then it should be offered because he's considered the most likely person to deliver future success.

You also mention mistrust, uncertainty and fear. I have read a lot of posts that show undercurrents of these things. A lot. Such feelings are not necessarily misplaced, but they are also not the foundation for a sensible decision.

Divorce fear, fairness and other emotions from this and, in my opinion at least, there's a fairly clear opportunity to make a logical decision that could launch us to the next step.

[Rossi the Robin]

Back injury aside I believe we have the best ever version of Nige 

I really don’t understand what is going on here and hoping it’s just another OTIB flare up 

[ExiledAjax]

14 minutes ago, petehinton said:

It’s why to me, the overarching feeling is just pure confusion. It has to be a personal dislike/vendetta against him from the Lansdown’s, there really isn’t another genuine reason in my eyes. 

The other reason could be that as much as you may think he has achieved what he should have achieved, the Lansdowns do not agree.

He may not have hit their targets.

"But he's done X, Y, and X! Achieving A, B, and C is putting impossible expectations on him!" you may cry, and yes he probably has achieved those things, and those other targets might be silly. 

I had a chat with Gould once and he said that top 6 was the target. That was probably a year and a half ago. I told him at the time I thought that was mad, that there was no way we were going top 6 that season. He said the owners think it's a  reasonable target.

If Pearson hasn't hit his targets, then the Lansdowns will feel vindicated in not renewing/extending his contract.

[petehinton]

Just now, ExiledAjax said:

The other reason could be that as much as you may think he has achieved what he should have achieved, the Lansdowns do not agree.

He may not have hit their targets.

"But he's done X, Y, and X! Achieving A, B, and C is putting impossible expectations on him!" you may cry, and yes he probably has achieved those things, and those other targets might be silly. 

I had a chat with Gould once and he said that top 6 was the target. That was probably a year and a half ago. I told him at the time I thought that was mad, that there was no way we were going top 6 that season. He said the owners think it's a  reasonable target.

If Pearson hasn't hit his targets, then the Lansdowns will feel vindicated in not renewing/extending his contract.

Exactly that. SL said, on record, he thinks he should’ve been promoted in both 18/19 and 19/20 seasons. I’d love to know what that was based on, apart from his own delusion and spoilt child mentality. 

[Sheltons Army]

22 minutes ago, petehinton said:

Largely in agreement, but to the point of ‘we’re now in a good position to kick on’ - we were in the best position in the clubs history when LJ went, on and off the pitch. And lansdown made such a big mess of it, many people wouldn’t have believed it if someone from the future came back and told us what was going to happen. 
 

I’ve also personally never really understood those who say NP probably isn’t the man to get us promoted. Who is, then? A manager who’s got promoted out of this league before? Well, that’s Pearson. A manager with extensive experience in the league we’re trying to get into? Well, that’s Pearson too. A manager who’s managed bigger clubs than us? Uhh….you can see where I’m going. 
 

It’s why to me, the overarching feeling is just pure confusion. It has to be a personal dislike/vendetta against him from the Lansdown’s, there really isn’t another genuine reason in my eyes. 

Sorry Pete , have to disagree here

I thought when wonder boy finally departed we were in a mess , financially , with a loaded , messy ,disenchanted, expensive squad

If we are talking ‘ the best position in the clubs history when LJ went, on and off the pitch ‘ I’d suggest it was when Cotts departed - Said it many times - a motivated , reasonably talented, lean in numbers , set of players with a bond and winning attitude that needed supplementing and guiding up the next level

 

THAT was the opportunity 

The opportunity of a generation

As I’ve alluded to in another post , that point , when Joe Jordan left and one other are the healthiest three times we’ve had a good base at this level , since the First Division days 

And the ‘one other’ is NOW , under Nigel Pearson 

 

Ive said before , I’m not sure he will get us promoted , but I firmly believe that every week and month he spends at our Club , the Footballing health of the Club will improve and benefit from , now ,and in the future

And , I love how he goes about the role of manager

Edited October 23, 2023 by Sheltons Army

[Simon bristol]

1 hour ago, Numero Uno said:

When you consider how destabilised we were 2-3 years ago and having navigated through FFP problems to bringing in big fees for players and having a relatively young side that is showing it can compete at this level, even when it is injury ravaged like Saturday. I really can’t see the benefit of destabilising it all again. Someone tell me the benefit.

I think we all agree Nige doesn’t have a free pass for life but surely give him one more contract to prove or otherwise whether he can take us further forward? If @Kid in the Riotis correct and it’s now a case of how and when we get rid I think the circus upstairs has got it all wrong. Either that or their next appointment needs to be a barnstormer……..if this is the decision they better bloody we’ll get it right is how I judge it anyway.

What many fans won’t have is another three years of a manager struggling like **** to re-stabilise the club when it’s already been stabilised. I could of course be wrong but it appears the current situation is personal on the part of the people in charge and not objective.

The only benefit is that we do pull out that barn stormer replacement and steve offers up the scott cash to build the squad up… but theres no way i would trust us to get it right, or for that cash to be available… i agree that it’s personal though, nige doesnt care about making that public and the lansdowns wont like him doing that!

[petehinton]

4 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

Sorry Pete , have to disagree here

I thought when wonder boy finally departed we were in a mess , financially , with a loaded , messy ,disenchanted, expensive squad

If we are talking ‘ the best position in the clubs history when LJ went, on and off the pitch ‘ I’d suggest it was when Cotts departed - Said it many times - a motivated , reasonably talented, lean in numbers , set of players with a bond and winning attitude that needed supplementing and guiding up the next level

 

THAT was the opportunity 

The opportunity of a generation

As I’ve alluded to in another post , that point , when Joe Jordan left and one other are the healthiest three times we’ve had a good base at this level , since the First Division days 

And the ‘one other’ is NOW , under Nigel Pearson 

 

Ive said before , I’m not sure he will get us promoted , but I firmly believe that every week and month he spends at our Club , the Footballing health of the Club will improve and benefit from , now ,and in the future

And , I love how he goes about the role of manager

Fair points, I guess for me I mean largely because of the calibre of person we could attract at that time, the stadium being completely finished, the HPC being done etc but agree finances and squad were scatter gun and a mess. 

[ExiledAjax]

4 minutes ago, petehinton said:

Exactly that. SL said, on record, he thinks he should’ve been promoted in both 18/19 and 19/20 seasons. I’d love to know what that was based on, apart from his own delusion and spoilt child mentality. 

Right, so I don't think it's fair to say it must be a personal vendetta against Pearson. Personally if there was someone I had a vendetta against I wouldn't employ him to look after one of my major assets and I wouldn't pay him hundreds of thousands of pounds a year.

Delusion and a flawed mentality yes, a misunderstanding of exactly what it takes to get promoted from the Championship perhaps. But I don't think we should construct a narrative where Lansdown personally hates Pearson. I don't see evidence of that.

[Mr Popodopolous]

20 minutes ago, petehinton said:

Largely in agreement, but to the point of ‘we’re now in a good position to kick on’ - we were in the best position in the clubs history when LJ went, on and off the pitch.

In hindsight, in some ways in some ways no.

In some ways yes if we are judging by League position, a decent if not quite st thst time an uber productive academy just yet.

If we are judging by performances to underpin, the squad size, profile, wage bill- not so much!

As of summer 2020 we had a year, perhaps 2 years at moat ie 2020-21 and 2021-22 to go up before the FFP mess would rise to the surface.

Otoh on paper there were hopes for Walsh and Morrell returning from strong loans and progress yet they floundered.

It is also worth noting and I am totally pro NP in, 3 year deal, bigger budget etc but it is worth noting if we think back that it could easily be  someone else who benefits from his good work.

We were often truly shambolic just before he came in, granted behind closed doors didn't help but same for everyone but the injuries are off the xbsets, even young players coming in and recalled loanees wwre getting injured.

We had some tough watches between March and May but behind closed doors football, morale on the floor, a lot of players who had run their course and virtually safe after the wins v Middlesbrough and Swansea.

He's truly done a brilliant salvage job here and merits much more support from the club.

[lenred]

18 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Divorce fear, fairness and other emotions from this and, in my opinion at least, there's a fairly clear opportunity to make a logical decision that could launch us to the next step.

That’s the trouble though.   There is very little evidence of the owner  making such decisions throughout his tenure.   

[REDOXO]

14 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

Sorry Pete , have to disagree here

I thought when wonder boy finally departed we were in a mess , financially , with a loaded , messy ,disenchanted, expensive squad

If we are talking ‘ the best position in the clubs history when LJ went, on and off the pitch ‘ I’d suggest it was when Cotts departed - Said it many times - a motivated , reasonably talented, lean in numbers , set of players with a bond and winning attitude that needed supplementing and guiding up the next level

 

THAT was the opportunity

As I’ve alluded to in another post , that point , when Joe Jordan left and one other are the healthiest three times we’ve had a good base at this level , since the First Division days 

And the ‘one other’ is NOW , under Nigel Pearson 

 

Ive said before , I’m not sure he will get us promoted , but I firmly believe that every week and month he spends at our Club , the Footballing health of the Club will improve and benefit from , now ,and in the future

And , I love how he goes about the role of manager

When Johnson departed we were in a mess! A bloated squad with a bloated wage bill that had been assembled at huge capital expense, all sanctioned bought and paid for under SL. 
 

However to your main point regarding the health of the club when Cotts left and now. There are two very obvious comparisons 

1 SC and SL fell out which in view of the public comments by NP they have done the same

2 Financial support was difficult to come by. The debacle of Grey n Gayle topped neatly off by Sack Cloth on the one hand. On the other hand underfunding the current manager, wh is running out of contract. 
 

It strikes me that both these guys were set up to fail for whatever reason! 
 

This side is where it is not because of SL, but wholly because NP has bought well and developed what he has in the academy. 
 

You could argue that is what SL is forcing to enable the club to become self sufficient, but if that’s the case at least extend the contract of the bloke who is so successful at it. 

Edited October 23, 2023 by REDOXO

[ExiledAjax]

6 minutes ago, lenred said:

That’s the trouble though.   There is very little evidence of the owner  making such decisions throughout his tenure.   

I appreciate that is the perception. 

It feels odd though to then conclude that we should persevere with an appointee that the owner doesn't want, in what? The hope Lansdown sells the Club and then we change manager? Or that the new owner would want to keep Pearson? 

I don't see how persisting with a frustrated and irritated manager who clashes with the owner is in anyway more likely to deliver promotion (assuming that is the marker we're aiming for) than taking the next 5 months to manage a handover would be.

If the cards are dealt then we need to play them and sometimes you need to raise the stakes rather than hold.

Edited October 23, 2023 by ExiledAjax

[Lew-T]

39 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

and failure to praise NP at any point , whilst muttering about Mark Robins , Luton and Millwall gives a certain impression 

This is what is irritating me.

[Bris Red]

34 minutes ago, petehinton said:

Largely in agreement, but to the point of ‘we’re now in a good position to kick on’ - we were in the best position in the clubs history when LJ went, on and off the pitch. And lansdown made such a big mess of it, many people wouldn’t have believed it if someone from the future came back and told us what was going to happen. 
 

I’ve also personally never really understood those who say NP probably isn’t the man to get us promoted. Who is, then? A manager who’s got promoted out of this league before? Well, that’s Pearson. A manager with extensive experience in the league we’re trying to get into? Well, that’s Pearson too. A manager who’s managed bigger clubs than us? Uhh….you can see where I’m going. 
 

It’s why to me, the overarching feeling is just pure confusion. It has to be a personal dislike/vendetta against him from the Lansdown’s, there really isn’t another genuine reason in my eyes. 

This is the conclusion that i have come to now. Wouldn’t be the first time either would it, if your face doesn't fit under Lansdown then you are shown the door as Cotts found out.

I personally feel Nige was brought in for one sole purpose and that was to clear up the horrendous mess that we found ourselves in in 2021. Never in a million years do i feel Lansdown and the board would have appointed Pearson if the club was in a good ‘state’.

He has been by and large used by the club IMO to get us out of a hole and now we are through the worst of it Lansdown is now eyeing up a manager more to his own personal liking. 
 

[spudski]

Seems NP has got a new career already...WTF is this

 

[lenred]

Just now, ExiledAjax said:

I appreciate that is the perception. 

It feels odd though to them conclude that we should persevere with an appointee that the owner doesn't want, in what? The hope Lansdown sells the Club and then we change manager? Or that the new owner would want to keep Pearson? 

I don't see how persisting with a frustrated and irritated manager who clashes with the owner is in anyway more likely to deliver promotion (assuming that is the marker we're aiming for) than taking the next 5 months to manage a handover would be.

If the cards are dealt then we need to play them and sometimes you need to raise the stakes rather than hold.

Pearson is evidently frustrated and irritated because of the lack of support. And tou have to question why is he not getting that. Why does SL not want him?  
Because he hasn’t delivered promotion? Because he isn’t pliable to Lansdown being involved in footballing decisions?  Because he picks players he doesn’t agree with? Why?  What exactly is it that SL wants. Because as far as I can see Pearson is delivering well above most people’s expectations and any reasonable performance metrics. So what is it?

[chinapig]

29 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Divorce fear, fairness and other emotions from this and, in my opinion at least, there's a fairly clear opportunity to make a logical decision that could launch us to the next step.

You make your case very well as usual.

All I would say is that history does not give me confidence that a logical decision will be made. It could work as you say but whether it would is at least a moot point.

[petehinton]

19 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Right, so I don't think it's fair to say it must be a personal vendetta against Pearson. Personally if there was someone I had a vendetta against I wouldn't employ him to look after one of my major assets and I wouldn't pay him hundreds of thousands of pounds a year.

Delusion and a flawed mentality yes, a misunderstanding of exactly what it takes to get promoted from the Championship perhaps. But I don't think we should construct a narrative where Lansdown personally hates Pearson. I don't see evidence of that.

I’d say it’s not far off at this stage tbh. Make someone’s job harder, set unrealistic and unreachable targets, don’t speak to them, don’t praise them, don’t let them reap what’s been sown. Maybe Not a hatred, but I’d say there’s a very clear and obvious dislike now. 

[chinapig]

7 minutes ago, spudski said:

Seems NP has got a new career already...WTF is this

 

Are crutches supplied or do they cost extra?

[bexhill reds]

I do wonder whether NP’s medical condition will be used as the mutual PR point to change managers. Some sort of statement coming out that due to the uncertainty of the prognosis felt best by all parties that NP steps aside and focus on resolving health issues blah blah, club thanks NP for efforts and will continue to support him at this time, due to the uncertain nature the club will begin a search for a new manager….

Then cue John Eustace, Gary Rowett or Mark Robins after a very short “extensive” search

[robin_unreliant]

36 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

I had a chat with Gould once and he said that top 6 was the target. That was probably a year and a half ago. I told him at the time I thought that was mad, that there was no way we were going top 6 that season. He said the owners think it's a  reasonable target.

If Pearson hasn't hit his targets, then the Lansdowns will feel vindicated in not renewing/extending his contract.

I think we can agree that Top 6 is a target we all want to achieve. If they had binned LJ earlier for not achieving it, rather than give him a new contract, then they would have half a leg to stand on. 

[Sleepy1968]

1 hour ago, bearded_red said:

This is the run of form that gets you awarded a new contract from football genius Lansdown.

Doesn’t bare thinking about where we could have ended up without Nige doing the job he’s done from the absolute desperate situation he inherited, but have a look at Reading for a clue.

I've striken the 0-0 draw with the mighty Burton from my memory. Good times though ...

[Mr Popodopolous]

On 21/10/2023 at 20:03, Midred said:

City were in the same position as Ipswich in 2017 , it will be interesting to see if Ipswich can sustain this after Xmas and how quickly their accountants sniff a financial problem?

To a degree although 28 pts from 11, is one hell of a start. We by comparison had 20 from 11 and 21 from 12.

Perhaps around Christmas when we were 2nd with a healthy lead over 7th at least.. there is a strong argument that perhaps we should have made playoffs that season.

Had we beaten Wolves the belief would have skyrocketed who knows where we may have ended up. It would have dragged Wolves back into the scrap and pressure in mid winter, congested year can do strange things.

Was far more congested in 2017. Preston were a key challenger, have now faltered.

Boxing Day 2017 for us.

Where Ipswich are now.

Just a comparison for us after 11 or 12 that season.

Edited October 23, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[The Exiled Robin]

2 hours ago, Gabriella said:

He could lose the next 10 games and some people on here would be demanding a new 5 year deal.

That’s absolute nonsense 

[lenred]

5 minutes ago, bexhill reds said:

I do wonder whether NP’s medical condition will be used as the mutual PR point to change managers. Some sort of statement coming out that due to the uncertainty of the prognosis felt best by all parties that NP steps aside and focus on resolving health issues blah blah, club thanks NP for efforts and will continue to support him at this time, due to the uncertain nature the club will begin a search for a new manager….

Then cue John Eustace, Gary Rowett or Mark Robins after a very short “extensive” search

Why would NP agree to that.   Could jeopardise any future work plans he may have. Not sure he will be in the mood to cooperate anyhow.   Although I’m sure SL will try to Chuck him a bucket load of cash to make sure his ‘brand’ isn’t damaged and Nige keeps schtum but not sure Nige will accept.   Hope he doesn’t.  

Edited October 23, 2023 by lenred

[Sheltons Army]

39 minutes ago, petehinton said:

Fair points, I guess for me I mean largely because of the calibre of person we could attract at that time, the stadium being completely finished, the HPC being done etc but agree finances and squad were scatter gun and a mess. 

Yes , some of the off field stuff was certainly looking in better shape

 

The other point I’d make about the current situation , the mess we’ve made over the years is quite something

But as I’ve alluded too in other posts IMHO this is only the third time , at this level , in the last 50 years we’ve had something good going on that has any structure or plan

IMHO NOW is still steps in the base build and construction and absolutely the worst point we should be parting ways with NP

Let him continue his job , back him and let him continue the build 

Who knows , NP might actually get us in a promotion push , albeit maybe not this season 

But while he’s building , introducing the Academy players and developing them , %1000 Back him , let him continue and actually be grateful and respectful for what he’s done, and actually recognise what he’s done

If it goes stale , theres a players revolt , or a serious consistent downturn in performances , warning signs , and results (* Particularly when the injured return) , that’s the time to discuss where we go from there and whether a change is needed

Complete and utter Madness

Edited October 23, 2023 by Sheltons Army

[Sheltons Army]

33 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

When Johnson departed we were in a mess! A bloated squad with a bloated wage bill that had been assembled at huge capital expense, all sanctioned bought and paid for under SL. 
 

However to your main point regarding the health of the club when Cotts left and now. There are two very obvious comparisons 

1 SC and SL fell out which in view of the public comments by NP they have done the same

2 Financial support was difficult to come by. The debacle of Grey n Gayle topped neatly off by Sack Cloth on the one hand. On the other hand underfunding the current manager, wh is running out of contract. 
 

It strikes me that both these guys were set up to fail for whatever reason! 
 

This side is where it is not because of SL, but wholly because NP has bought well and developed what he has in the academy. 
 

You could argue that is what SL is forcing to enable the club to become self sufficient, but if that’s the case at least extend the contract of the bloke who is so successful at it. 

Yes , the point I was trying to make RO , as Cotts departure became inevitable and I thought he contributed at the end, but the opportunity was still there , on the next appointment for someone to build on that with skill and nouse.

Unfortunately we (They) didn’t and pursued a personal project and friendship