Pearson Post Match

[Kid in the Riot]

7 minutes ago, mozo said:

So you don't think we'd go as established as a Rowett or Eustace, but fishing around for an up and coming, inexperienced and unproven manager from lower down the ladder?

I don't think it takes a genius to work out that Brian Tinnion will have a significant influence on who the next manager/coach is, as ultimately it'll be him the next man works closest with in terms of recruitment and footballing strategy. And frankly, other than him, there is a complete void of footballing expertise at the top of the club.

If Tinnion likes his coaches as he likes his players, then we could speculate it likely that the next man would be a "younger" coach, who like you say, would likely be unproven, but would have some kind of potential that Tinnion would see which would suggest they could grow into the role and succeed. 

Yet again, under Lansdown, it's basically ripping up the current model and starting again though. A tedious pattern that has seen us bounce from one disappointment to the next over the past 15 years. 

In terms of blooding youth/academy players as a key "job requirement" by the way, I'm not sure there's a manager in City's history that has blooded more youngsters than Nigel Pearson - certainly not in the past 20 years.

Edited October 24, 2023 by Kid in the Riot

[mozo]

3 hours ago, extonsred said:

DoF role does not require attendance at training ground and much can be done working from home 

I'd be happy with Nige DoF and Curtis as head coach, but Lansdown probably wants Nige gone.

2 minutes ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

It's an odd one- the impending change of Manager seems to be mainly 'a thing' on OTIB yet nowhere else other than from Nige himself stating that he was irritated by his lack of job security (new contract).

The idea that the club "destroys" three years of foundations seems , imo, overlooking all the work that the likes of Pearson, Gould and even SL have put in to create better foundations. If Nige leaves due to health/sack/choice then the work he has done will not have been 'destroyed'.

Last season 15 Managers were sacked in the Championship with Wigan,Watford and Huddersfield sacking two. Nige is the second longest serving . Football clubs constantly have to reinvent themselves and it's an ongoing challenge.If Nige had been more successful ( or becomes so)  and  poached by a bigger club would that destroy three years of foundations? Surely the whole point of foundations is to ensure the club is not reliant on one individual to get results both on and off the pitch?

 

 

I think we've seen how the standards that Nige demands have transformed us from 'cosy club' to a professional, hard-working outfit.

Any replacement for Nige is going to have to have those same standards or our young players could potentially lose their way, in my opinion.

[Red Exile]

2 minutes ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

Surely the whole point of foundations is to ensure the club is not reliant on one individual to get results both on and off the pitch?

I genuinely admire your optimism. I wish I had it. For me Steve Lansdown's ownership has been characterised - on the playing side of the club - by foundations built of sand. Of course it may be different this time...if it happens, which I'm rather hoping it won't.

[mozo]

2 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

I don't think it takes a genius to work out that Brian Tinnion will have a significant influence on who the next manager/coach is, as ultimately it'll be him the next man works closest with in terms of recruitment and footballing strategy. And frankly, other than him, there is a complete void of footballing expertise at the top of the club.

If Tinnion likes his coaches like he likes his players, then we could speculate it likely that the next man would be a "younger" coach, who like you say, would likely be unproven, but would have some kind of potential that Tinnion would see which would suggest they could grow into the role and succeed. 

Yet again, under Lansdown, it's basically ripping up the current model and starting again though. A tedious pattern that has seen us bounce from one disappointment to the next over the past 15 years. 

In terms of blooding youth/academy players as a key "job requirement" by the way, I'm not sure there's a manager in City's history that has blooded more youngsters than Nigel Pearson - certainly not in the past 20 years.

In which case, per my last post, we risk lowering standards throughout the club. Can a young manager command the authority needed to keep our young, naive and sometimes rag tag squad cohesive?

Also, I can tell you the forum narrative now, which is that Lansdown wants an LJ mark 2, another yes man.

[GrahamC]

2 minutes ago, mozo said:

I'd be happy with Nige DoF and Curtis as head coach, but Lansdown probably wants Nige gone.

I think we've seen how the standards that Nige demands have transformed us from 'cosy club' to a professional, hard-working outfit.

Any replacement for Nige is going to have to have those same standards or our young players could potentially lose their way, in my opinion.

Nige doesn’t want to be a HoF, not a chance in a million our next manager is Curtis.

Euell will definitely want a go but that looks very much like the Holden appointment & I’d be amazed if we went for someone from within after how that ended.

[City oz]

6 minutes ago, mozo said:

In which case, per my last post, we risk lowering standards throughout the club. Can a young manager command the authority needed to keep our young, naive and sometimes rag tag squad cohesive?

Also, I can tell you the forum narrative now, which is that Lansdown wants an LJ mark 2, another yes man.

I think that you hit the nail on the head with that one Mozo,

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

6 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

 

In terms of blooding youth/academy players as a key "job requirement" by the way, I'm not sure there's a manager in City's history that has blooded more youngsters than Nigel Pearson - certainly not in the past 20 years.

Surely this is a two way street in that in the last 20 years no Manager has had such a rich resource of realistic first team prospects from the Academy?

Nige has been excellent at utilising this resource sometimes through pure necessity but more often because he has chosen to based on merit.

[ExiledAjax]

25 minutes ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

Surely the whole point of foundations is to ensure the club is not reliant on one individual to get results both on and off the pitch?

I was going to make a similar point the other day but didn't get to it.

Absolutely, if the stability of the club is dependent on a single individual being present, then what stability is there really?

If the culture is wholly dependent on Pearson's presence, then he's not really built that culture into the fabric of the Club has he?

Ideally he's stabilised the club and realigned the culture, AND built in protection to ensure that remains when his successor takes over (and there will always be a successor, especially to a man in his 60s who has health issues).

[nebristolred]

5 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

I was going to make a similar point the other day but didn't get to it.

Absolutely, if the stability of the club is dependent on a single individual being present, then what stability is there really?

If the culture is wholly dependent on Pearson's presence, then he's not really built that culture into the fabric of the Club has he?

Ideally he's stabilised the club and realigned the culture, AND built in protection to ensure that remains when his successor takes over (and there will always be a successor, especially to a man in his 60s who has health issues).

It's an interesting point that thought. In many ways I'd argue the manager sometimes is the culture of the club. If Alex Ferguson had left 3 or 4 years into his Man Utd stint, his 'culture' wouldn't have stuck around, it would have moved on. That doesn't mean Ferguson did a bad job, it just means that a football club's identity/philosophy changes with whoever is in charge at the time. And on the same note, results collapsed when he did eventually leave. You could add Don Revie to that, Jose Mourinho, etc.

Basically, although I see your point, I can't really think of many instances where a football club's culture/work ethic has continued consistently regardless of manager. I think ultimately whoever is at the top kind of sets that standard.

Edited October 24, 2023 by nebristolred

[mozo]

23 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Nige doesn’t want to be a HoF, not a chance in a million our next manager is Curtis.

Euell will definitely want a go but that looks very much like the Holden appointment & I’d be amazed if we went for someone from within after how that ended.

What I was more angling for was a de factor status quo, but one that helps Nige with his health. It's not gonna happen anyway though!

[mozo]

2 minutes ago, nebristolred said:

It's an interesting point that thought. In many ways I'd argue the manager sometimes is the culture of the club. If Alex Ferguson had left 3 or 4 years into his Man Utd stint, his 'culture' wouldn't have stuck around, it would have moved on. That doesn't mean Ferguson did a bad job, it just means that a football club's identity/philosophy changes with whoever is in charge at the time. And on the same note, results collapsed when he did eventually leave. You could add Don Revie to that, Jose Mourinho, etc.

Basically, although I see your point, I can't really think of many instances where a football club's culture/work ethic has continued consistently regardless of manager. I think ultimately whoever is at the top kind of sets that standard.

Well Man United did lose that culture as soon as he left, and the likes of Moyes, Jose and many others couldn't get it back.

[Alessandro]

17 minutes ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

It's an odd one- the impending change of Manager seems to be mainly 'a thing' on OTIB yet nowhere else other than from Nige himself stating that he was irritated by his lack of job security (new contract).

The idea that the club "destroys" three years of foundations seems , imo, overlooking all the work that the likes of Pearson, Gould and even SL have put in to create better foundations. If Nige leaves due to health/sack/choice then the work he has done will not have been 'destroyed'.

Last season 15 Managers were sacked in the Championship with Wigan,Watford and Huddersfield sacking two. Nige is the second longest serving . Football clubs constantly have to reinvent themselves and it's an ongoing challenge.If Nige had been more successful ( or becomes so)  and  poached by a bigger club would that destroy three years of foundations? Surely the whole point of foundations is to ensure the club is not reliant on one individual to get results both on and off the pitch?

 

 

This is hugely reliant on the next appointment though. You're presuming they:

A) Have the wish to continue building on these foundations in same sort of way.

B) Have the ability to maintain these standards.

As others point out, history has shown us, time and again, BCFC have a poor track record in any sort of continuity of strategy or managerial personality/ethos - as KITR says above, swinging from one idea to another. Which leaves us ripping up the rule book and starting again.

I think those who know my posting history over the last 10 years plus on OTIB know I've been a huge backer of SL, supporting him in the face of much criticism.

I'm not angry now or hysterical or frustrated - just wisened, perhaps disappointed - and over the last 15 years I've watched his actions and although there is praise to be given in areas, i've seen the same mistakes made time and again - most recently losing control under MA and LJ as he did under GJ and the appointment of Holden. Is he the only club owner making those mistakes, hell no. 

But the reality is we've been at best treading water league position wise under SL, the only moments of upwards movement being to put right the downwards movements on his watch. 

When you sit back and think, wow, look at what Brentford, Bournemouth, Brighton, Luton, Forest, Fulham to name 6 teams out of 20 plus who've been in the premier league for sometime during this SL period - you look at the potential of BCFC and you see the same patterns, same mistakes made over and over - coupled with the increasing detachment of the board with the fans - I don't think it's unreasonable for fans like me to look at and say, this doesn't add up and I can't simply blindly get behind the actions of this board anyone - even if to you "it's just an impending managerial that really isn't a big deal/happens all the time in football/chill out just because OK".

 

[Clevedon Red]

just listened to last nights programme. Line of the night for me was @Davefevs stating how “Nige is having to work with his hands tied behind his back…which is difficult with crutches” made me laugh out loud on my morning walk.

[One Team]

Just listened to last nights Sound of the City, was a great listen, although disappointing (but perhaps not surprising) no one from the club came on the show. 

Well done @Davefevs, thought you did a great job representing the views on here. Obviously we still don’t have any answers but it was good to have it all aired and discussed on live radio. 

 

[marmite]

5 minutes ago, One Team said:

Just listened to last nights Sound of the City, was a great listen, although disappointing (but perhaps not surprising) no one from the club came on the show. 

Well done @Davefevs, thought you did a great job representing the views on here. Obviously we still don’t have any answers but it was good to have it all aired and discussed on live radio. 

 

Yes, even if no one at the club reads this forum, our views are out there now. Over to you Steve (or Jon).

[Nogbad the Bad]

1 minute ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

Last season 15 Managers were sacked in the Championship with Wigan,Watford and Huddersfield sacking two. Nige is the second longest serving . Football clubs constantly have to reinvent themselves and it's an ongoing challenge.

The churn of managers in the Championship is not a route we should seek to follow if it's not necessary, such actions not only shows a lack of patience and understanding by boards and fans, but how seldom clubs clubs make the right choice in the first place, or think long term.

To SL's great good fortune exactly the right man was available and willing to take on the City challenge, NP being a very experienced successful manager who found Bristol City FC fascinating, and was excited and invigorated by the prospect of using his final years in football management to not only turn the club round but, I'm sure in his view, take City to promotion.

He's done everything that could be expected of him, is probably more than half way through executing that plan, and under him we are set on a course to not only be a consistently competitive Championship club but an improving one challenging for the play offs.

It's a fantastic turnaround and we, and particularly SL, are very lucky to have him.

For SL to risk throwing all this away is plain madness, and when lifelong fans say they will take a break from City if he is forced out,, or even give up altogether, they really are not just saying it = this would be the final straw for many who've sat through numerous nonsensical, deflating and damaging decisions by SL and are not about to be uncomplainingly taken for fools yet again.

.

[tin]

34 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

I was going to make a similar point the other day but didn't get to it.

Absolutely, if the stability of the club is dependent on a single individual being present, then what stability is there really?

If the culture is wholly dependent on Pearson's presence, then he's not really built that culture into the fabric of the Club has he?

Ideally he's stabilised the club and realigned the culture, AND built in protection to ensure that remains when his successor takes over (and there will always be a successor, especially to a man in his 60s who has health issues).

RE stability — bear in mind, Rennie, Fleming, Euell, King and James - all key individuals with top-flight (and in some cases PL- winning) experience are all here because of Nige and will likely leave. Bear in mind Tinnion is the only man with any football experience above the manager. There is nothing stable about that, it looks like a rudderless ship IMO and has the real potential to create a vacuum. This has real potential to create avoidable upheaval — the polar opposite of stability — that risks our status in this league. 

RE culture — again, that ties in my first point. When Rennie, Fleming and Euell go, followed by King and James next summer, the individuals who were setting the standards of the club will have left. It takes longer than two-and-a-half years to embed culture into the “fabric” of a club, see Sir Alex Ferguson for example. In any case, culture begins at the very top and transcends down. Not here, though, not in the last two decades at least. 

And ultimately, we have never had a succession plan under the Lansdowns; instead we have leapt from one failed strategy to another. There is a body of evidence spanning 20+ years to show you that it will almost certainly be no different this time around. 

[mozo]

12 minutes ago, Clevedon Red said:

just listened to last nights programme. Line of the night for me was @Davefevs stating how “Nige is having to work with his hands tied behind his back…which is difficult with crutches” made me laugh out loud on my morning walk.

Yeah was that pre-prepared or just quick-witted? Either way, it was liquid radio.

[Alessandro]

A few other points about stability and foundations for those saying it won't just disappear if NP goes.

I'm not saying it will, obviously many foundations will remain. For example NP is benefiting from homegrown talent produced by work done in the academy under MA and LJ. 

So i'm not saying it's back to square one. But don't underestimate how much a new manager can undo balance at a football club. We've seen it time and again at other more successful clubs.

You have to remember, to manage at this level, it takes personality and a fair dose of ego/confidence in yourself and your processes. Whoever comes in will have their own way and that could well be in contrast to what we are doing currently which is, on the whole 'working', or at least trending the right way thanks to NP.

Players will become surplus to requirements, players will be frozen out, players will be sold. The excellent morale of this squad will be hit to some degree, whether you like it or not. That's a fact - the new manager will want their own players and so we go through the 1 to 2 year process AGAIN of them building 'their' squad. 

That could well be for the better, but either way it takes time and is a gamble.

The non-tangibles in football are like gold dust. Team spirit, ethos, momentum. Very hard to buy and very long to grow. Things we'll need in abundance to go up - NP brings those. Will the next man? Remember, the players aren't playing for SL, whether he likes it or not. NP has them playing for him and the fans. 

That's not me saying NP is the messiah or can never be sacked - but just a cautionary thought that things working well under NP won't automatically continue to do so under another manager who can just fly in and magic his way to promotion with some extra cash from SL.

Edited October 24, 2023 by Alessandro

[Will Rollason]

1 hour ago, Alessandro said:

This is hugely reliant on the next appointment though. You're presuming they:

A) Have the wish to continue building on these foundations in same sort of way.

B) Have the ability to maintain these standards.

As others point out, history has shown us, time and again, BCFC have a poor track record in any sort of continuity of strategy or managerial personality/ethos - as KITR says above, swinging from one idea to another. Which leaves us ripping up the rule book and starting again.

I think those who know my posting history over the last 10 years plus on OTIB know I've been a huge backer of SL, supporting him in the face of much criticism.

I'm not angry now or hysterical or frustrated - just wisened, perhaps disappointed - and over the last 15 years I've watched his actions and although there is praise to be given in areas, i've seen the same mistakes made time and again - most recently losing control under MA and LJ as he did under GJ and the appointment of Holden. Is he the only club owner making those mistakes, hell no. 

But the reality is we've been at best treading water league position wise under SL, the only moments of upwards movement being to put right the downwards movements on his watch. 

When you sit back and think, wow, look at what Brentford, Bournemouth, Brighton, Luton, Forest, Fulham to name 6 teams out of 20 plus who've been in the premier league for sometime during this SL period - you look at the potential of BCFC and you see the same patterns, same mistakes made over and over - coupled with the increasing detachment of the board with the fans - I don't think it's unreasonable for fans like me to look at and say, this doesn't add up and I can't simply blindly get behind the actions of this board anyone - even if to you "it's just an impending managerial that really isn't a big deal/happens all the time in football/chill out just because OK".

 

Good stuff man. The one that really grinds me is Bournemouth. I can live with the others as for one reason or another top flight doesn't seem out of the ordinary, annoying as **** but ok... but Bournemouth?

It grinds me that they have Lloyd Kelly, Antoine semenyo and Alex Scott. Yes...45million ish thank you but... Why not us with those players and more besides. Only one reason and that is Eddie Howe. 

Is that all that's missing for us?

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

1 hour ago, Alessandro said:

 

 

 

When you sit back and think, wow, look at what Brentford, Bournemouth, Brighton, Luton, Forest, Fulham to name 6 teams out of 20 plus who've been in the premier league for sometime during this SL period - you look at the potential of BCFC and you see the same patterns, same mistakes made over and over - coupled with the increasing detachment of the board with the fans - I don't think it's unreasonable for fans like me to look at and say, this doesn't add up and I can't simply blindly get behind the actions of this board anyone - even if to you "it's just an impending managerial that really isn't a big deal/happens all the time in football/chill out just because OK".

 

These are your made up words not a quote from me!

I clearly stated that I thought it best to continue with Nige if he is willing and able. 

I also stated that I thought it ridiculous to suppose that NP was the only manager capable of taking the club forward on the pitch.

As for the 'chill out' bit. Yes- I think that's precisely how I feel. I just can't feel the same sense of righteous indignation/ 'I'm not going to support City anymore'. as many on here suggest.

Something Tom (otib website manager)  said before he left /stopped working with OTIB really struck a chord with me. He said something along the lines of " if it all gets a bit much and you get too wound up then just take a break for a while". 

Wise words. As far as the fortunes or otherwise of a club I have always supported are concerned, there are too many other situations in this world which matter far more to me than the manager or the owner or even results. If we do well then it's great and if we don't it's pretty much same old same old. I've had my Nick Hornby Fever Pitch period and am much the better for coming out the other side!

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

8 minutes ago, Will Rollason said:

Good stuff man. The one that really grinds me is Bournemouth. I can live with the others as for one reason or another top flight doesn't seem out of the ordinary, annoying as **** but ok... but Bournemouth?

It grinds me that they have Lloyd Kelly, Antoine semenyo and Alex Scott. Yes...45million ish thank you but... Why not us with those players and more besides. Only one reason and that is Eddie Howe. 

Is that all that's missing for us?

They also broke FFP at a time it was purely reactive and when the punishments were linked to fine if promoted embargo if not.

Not possible now with early intervention, early embargoes, past, present, future monitoring. Howe plus excessive spending was the combination.

Edited October 24, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Maltshoveller]

5 minutes ago, Will Rollason said:

Good stuff man. The one that really grinds me is Bournemouth. I can live with the others as for one reason or another top flight doesn't seem out of the ordinary, annoying as **** but ok... but Bournemouth?

It grinds me that they have Lloyd Kelly, Antoine semenyo and Alex Scott. Yes...45million ish thank you but... Why not us with those players and more besides. Only one reason and that is Eddie Howe. 

Is that all that's missing for us?

The same Eddie Howe

Who some how managed to get them relegated 

Imo any other manager in the prem or championship would have kept that team in the prem

More the fact they blew FFP out of the water

[Will Rollason]

5 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

They also broke FFP at a time it was purely reactive and when the punishments were linked to fine if promoted embargo if not.

Not possible now with early intervention, early embargoes, past, present, future monitoring. Howe plus excessive spending was the combination.

 Oh yes no doubt !and many more like them,  but was it not Howe that galvanised them and coached them initially?

[Alessandro]

14 minutes ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

These are your made up words not a quote from me!

I clearly stated that I thought it best to continue with Nige if he is willing and able. 

I also stated that I thought it ridiculous to suppose that NP was the only manager capable of taking the club forward on the pitch.

As for the 'chill out' bit. Yes- I think that's precisely how I feel. I just can't feel the same sense of righteous indignation/ 'I'm not going to support City anymore'. as many on here suggest.

Something Tom (otib website manager)  said before he left /stopped working with OTIB really struck a chord with me. He said something along the lines of " if it all gets a bit much and you get too wound up then just take a break for a while". 

Wise words. As far as the fortunes or otherwise of a club I have always supported are concerned, there are too many other situations in this world which matter far more to me than the manager or the owner or even results. If we do well then it's great and if we don't it's pretty much same old same old. I've had my Nick Hornby Fever Pitch period and am much the better for coming out the other side!

 

I guess that’s it there isn’t, you’ve summed it up - good or bad - City’s fortune doesn’t really matter that much in your life. For large periods I’ve been often the same.

However much I don’t agree with some view points, i’ve come to understand and respect though that for many, City is their life. Is their hobby. Is their weekend. Yes maybe some need to take a break as you say, but even if I don’t agree with their view points I respect their right to get frustrated if they see a large proportion of their income going into a club that is happy to take the cash but seems to care very little about them or their opinion.

Edited October 24, 2023 by Alessandro

[Will Rollason]

6 minutes ago, Maltshoveller said:

The same Eddie Howe

Who some how managed to get them relegated 

Imo any other manager in the prem or championship would have kept that team in the prem

More the fact they blew FFP out of the water

 Yeah I know, but he kept them there for 5 seasons was voted manager of the decade by the EFL in 2015 and

"Under Howe's stewardship, Bournemouth won three promotions in six years to win a place in the first tier of English football"

so,  yeah the money was a joke but he had to use it. 

Dean Court, capacity 11,307 ffs

[Phileas Fogg]

On 23/10/2023 at 09:57, 2015 said:

It's not just about NP leaving it's the fact we all know his replacement will be extremely underwhelming and all progression made under NP will be for nothing.

 

I reckon they'd prefer someone like Russell Martin, if he was available. 

I think it's likely that Lansdown's ego was a bit bruised after the Johnson saga (without getting into the success/failure debate) and really wants to achieve success with his own ideas about a preferred "type" of manager.

 

[elhombrecito]

5 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

I reckon they'd prefer someone like Russell Martin, if he was available. 

I think it's likely that Lansdown's ego was a bit bruised after the Johnson saga (without getting into the success/failure debate) and really wants to achieve success with his own ideas about a preferred "type" of manager.

 

I could not sit through a whole season of Martinball 

[fisherrich]

13 hours ago, GrahamC said:

Me neither & I don’t think the other poster is exactly sat on the fence either.

If he goes I’m pretty sure at the moment that’s me done with the club until Lansdown & his son ***** off.

I have a ST but I’m probably not going to bother to go & definitely will not renew.

For anyone on here who wants to call that an overreaction, **** you.

I’ve been watching City for 50 years, did almost every game home & away when we were in the fourth division & am not interested in your lectures on being a true fan.

Lansdown & his son are absolutely clueless & so can carry on making a mess of it without me.

Well said! I have a similar story to tell. Highs and lots of lows (Newport away I was there) in nearly 50 years. 
This is not hysteria. The Lansdownes are the problem. Killing this club when we have a decent chance with Nige P. If Nige P gets sacked, I will not be bothering. My family have supported Bristol City for many years, but enough is enough with Lansdown.

Feeling pretty pissed off with Lansdown’s tinkering. Doomed to fail. Why bother?

[Mr Popodopolous]

29 minutes ago, Will Rollason said:

 Oh yes no doubt !and many more like them,  but was it not Howe that galvanised them and coached them initially?

This is true. He inherited a side going nowhere in particular in League One albeit.

Just checked. They were compliant in 2013-14, the breach came in 2014-15 on the old one year rule when they had a total wahw bill of £30.4m and promotion bonuses of £9m. On the flipside, multiple clubs had a higher wage bill as per one report.

Promotion bonuses appear to be excluded from the final calculations which would make sense because they are conditional payments triggered by an event- ie promotion. Assuming it isn't base rate of £30.4m and a promotion bonus of £9m on top. Still they spent beyond the rules.