The Bus is Back in the Car Park

[Port Said Red]

One thing I don't get from the views of and the interviews with LM is the idea that there is a bus that you are either on or off, when it comes to his view of a player.

It was something of a criticism of NP, back in the days when you could criticise him, that he was very quick to move players to one side if they did something he didn't approve of. 

Some might say that was a good thing, "my way or the highway" and I can see that to an extent,  but when it starts to have a detrimental effect on the match day squad, I think it's a worry. There was never any real explanation as to why we had two goalkeepers on the bench against Cardiff, when Pearson, Araoye or Francois could have been included. Yet Idehen was included despite being off the bus only a couple of weeks before.

Manning seems to include and consider everyone as being "coachable", so it will be interesting to see who might suddenly come back into the reckoning over the next month or so.

Edited November 8, 2023 by Port Said Red

[CliftonCliff]

That was then, and this is now. The flaw in the argument, with respect, is that NP's zero tolerance of under-performing individuals was necessary and appropriate, given the culture of the club at the time. Marley Watkins? Tyreeq Bakinson? Not wanted on voyage, and rightly so.

Pearson has left the club and the squad in a place where Manning won't need to do anything similar, which is yet one more reason why the previous manager shouldn't have been sacked in the first place. 

[bcfc01]

5 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

One thing I don't get from the views of and the interviews with LM is the idea that there is a bus that you are either on or off, when it comes to his view of a player.

It was something of a criticism of NP, back in the days when you could criticise him, that he was very quick to move players to one side if they did something he didn't approve of. 

Some might say that was a good thing, "my way or the highway" and I can see that to an extent,  but when it starts to have a detrimental effect on the match day squad, I think it's a worry. There was never any real explanation as to why we had two goalkeepers on the bench against Cardiff, when Pearson, Araoye or Francois could have been included. Yet Idehen was included despite being off the bus only a couple of weeks before.

Manning seems to include and consider everyone as being "coachable", so it will be interesting to see who might suddenly come back into the reckoning over the next month or so.

Yep, agree with most of that, but not to forget that NP got shot of a load that really had no future here for good reasons. 

I think there will be some looking over their shoulder with the younger players buying into LM straight away. 

 

[CliftonCliff]

And I might have added to my reply that NP didn't just bin people off. There are plenty of examples of his man management skills where someone was out of favour for a while while issues were addressed and came back to do very well - Atkinson, Wells, to name but two.

[BrizzleRed]

2 minutes ago, CliftonCliff said:

That was then, and this is now. The flaw in the argument, with respect, is that NP's zero tolerance of under-performing individuals was necessary and appropriate, given the culture of the club at the time. Marley Watkins? Tyreeq Bakinson? Not wanted on voyage, and rightly so.

Pearson has left the club and the squad in a place where Manning won't need to do anything similar, which is yet one more reason why the previous manager shouldn't have been sacked in the first place. 

Nail squarely whacked on head!

We’ve been crying out for years for the passengers and wasters at this club to be kicked out.  We then get someone come in and attack the problem head-on and immediately the team spirit and workrate improves massively.

Amazing how this can then be turned round by someone as a criticism of Nige.  If a player wasn’t on the bench, even when there was a place available, you can bet they didn’t deserve to be there at that time.

[petehinton]

22 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

One thing I don't get from the views of and the interviews with LM is the idea that there is a bus that you are either on or off, when it comes to his view of a player.

It was something of a criticism of NP, back in the days when you could criticise him, that he was very quick to move players to one side if they did something he didn't approve of. 

Some might say that was a good thing, "my way or the highway" and I can see that to an extent,  but when it starts to have a detrimental effect on the match day squad, I think it's a worry. There was never any real explanation as to why we had two goalkeepers on the bench against Cardiff, when Pearson, Araoye or Francois could have been included. Yet Idehen was included despite being off the bus only a couple of weeks before.

Manning seems to include and consider everyone as being "coachable", so it will be interesting to see who might suddenly come back into the reckoning over the next month or so.

I’d also not totally rule out that those being ignored were club (I.e Tinnion) decisions, not just manager. Maybe a combination of the two of them. 

[italian dave]

Just to add also that there were instances where what gets defined on here as “binned off” was simply a recognition that a particular players strengths were not aligned to the way NP wanted to set us up. Kasey Palmer was a case in point, and NP made it very clear that he had no problem with KP’s attitude or abilities, just that it wasn’t going to fit into the way he wanted us to play. 

[Sheltons Army]

43 minutes ago, CliftonCliff said:

That was then, and this is now. The flaw in the argument, with respect, is that NP's zero tolerance of under-performing individuals was necessary and appropriate, given the culture of the club at the time. Marley Watkins? Tyreeq Bakinson? Not wanted on voyage, and rightly so.

Pearson has left the club and the squad in a place where Manning won't need to do anything similar, which is yet one more reason why the previous manager shouldn't have been sacked in the first place. 

 

37 minutes ago, CliftonCliff said:

And I might have added to my reply that NP didn't just bin people off. There are plenty of examples of his man management skills where someone was out of favour for a while while issues were addressed and came back to do very well - Atkinson, Wells, to name but two.

Well said Cliff
 

As I put in another post all the ***** groundwork has been done

Manning is walking into a perfect base scenario

[W-S-M Seagull]

45 minutes ago, CliftonCliff said:

And I might have added to my reply that NP didn't just bin people off. There are plenty of examples of his man management skills where someone was out of favour for a while while issues were addressed and came back to do very well - Atkinson, Wells, to name but two.

Nige always gave players another chance. If they applied themselves well etc then they could get back into the reckoning. 

We all know a lot about Mannings tactical and coaching abilities. 

What I haven't really come across much is his man management ability? Anyone have any information?

[CliftonCliff]

7 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

 

Well said Cliff
 

As I put in another post all the ***** groundwork has been done

Manning is walking into a perfect base scenario

Exactly. And the owners also say the squad is already good enough for a promotion challenge. So you might almost say, no excuses.

No pressure, then. Good luck with that Liam. (And I  mean that sincerely, as well, but I won't be holding my breath. Let's hope the Lansdowns are!)

[Silvio Dante]

14 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

 

Well said Cliff
 

As I put in another post all the ***** groundwork has been done

Manning is walking into a perfect base scenario

In a lot of ways, Mannings walking into a hiding to nothing.

- Performs at the same level as Pearson (so bobbing around 10th this season) - doesn’t meet the remit of kicking on

- Performs better than Pearson but is allowed to add players - board are seen as even more complicit in sabotaging Pearson and he gets little credit

- Performs worse than Pearson - nuff said

The only way Manning will get credit (and in turn justify JL and BTs decision) is to significantly outperform Pearson in results and performance with the same squad - and even then for some it’ll be tempered by the fact he’ll have injured players back.

I want him to do well, and am cautiously optimistic. But I also fear that the way the clowns in charge have handled things have left him in a position where he can’t win unless he does something spectacular.

 

[W-S-M Seagull]

21 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

 

Well said Cliff
 

As I put in another post all the ***** groundwork has been done

Manning is walking into a perfect base scenario

I'll never agree that the decision to get rid of Nige at this time was the correct decision. I think we would have had a decent shot at the play offs this season. 

However the decision was made and its a great opportunity for Manning because like you say it's a perfect baseline. 

I just prey to god that he is the right guy to take advantage of that perfect baseline.

[CliftonCliff]

2 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

In a lot of ways, Mannings walking into a hiding to nothing.

- Performs at the same level as Pearson (so bobbing around 10th this season) - doesn’t meet the remit of kicking on

- Performs better than Pearson but is allowed to add players - board are seen as even more complicit in sabotaging Pearson and he gets little credit

- Performs worse than Pearson - nuff said

The only way Manning will get credit (and in turn justify JL and BTs decision) is to significantly outperform Pearson in results and performance with the same squad - and even then for some it’ll be tempered by the fact he’ll have injured players back.

I want him to do well, and am cautiously optimistic. But I also fear that the way the clowns in charge have handled things have left him in a position where he can’t win unless he does something spectacular.

 

You could not have summarised it better. Exactly word-for-word how I see it and I think that probably goes for a sizeable majority of the fan base. You can't help wondering how much homework Manning might have done before accepting the job and to what extent he's aware of the dynamics you so succinctly described.  

[Silvio Dante]

4 minutes ago, CliftonCliff said:

You could not have summarised it better. Exactly word-for-word how I see it and I think that probably goes for a sizeable majority of the fan base. You can't help wondering how much homework Manning might have done before accepting the job and to what extent he's aware of the dynamics you so succinctly described.  

Yep, and to be clear there is nothing against Manning here - he’s walking into a situation not of his making and I’d hope everyone gives him full support. You however just have to look at the last time we sacked a popular manager (Cotts - for whom I think the decision was warranted) how long it took his successor to win fans over - and for some, he never did. I don’t think Manning is another Johnson like some but the base scenario does have some echoes - however this time the volume is turned up to eleven.

[Spud21]

2 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

Yep, and to be clear there is nothing against Manning here - he’s walking into a situation not of his making and I’d hope everyone gives him full support. You however just have to look at the last time we sacked a popular manager (Cotts - for whom I think the decision was warranted) how long it took his successor to win fans over - and for some, he never did. I don’t think Manning is another Johnson like some but the base scenario does have some echoes - however this time the volume is turned up to eleven.

Think Johnson time as a player had a heavy influence on that though as let's face it he was at best marmite as a player, so at least Manning doesn't have that to contend with. Think finishing anywhere 10th or higher and being a bit more exiting to watch at home will have most of the fan base happy. 

[TDarwall]

Not sure the Lee Johnson comparison works for me. He arrived with a huge amount of baggage from his playing days & having replaced 1 of the most successful managers we've ever had.  

I've no idea how he'll do but at least he comes with a clean(er) slate than LJ did.

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Manning needs to I believe:

1) Get off to a bit of a flyer.

2) Maintain a consistent level, perhaps even if just short of playoffs somewhere between 10th and 6th but a meaningful tilt at the playoffs.

3) Keep at worst at the baseline he inherited. 1.4 PPG, 40% win ratio.

4) If the cheque book is opened and the injury situation remains stable. Sure injuries will always happen but a more normal level, expectations may go up a notch again.

On the flipside if the injury situation goes bad again he may get more slack.

Edited November 8, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[italian dave]

36 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

In a lot of ways, Mannings walking into a hiding to nothing.

- Performs at the same level as Pearson (so bobbing around 10th this season) - doesn’t meet the remit of kicking on

- Performs better than Pearson but is allowed to add players - board are seen as even more complicit in sabotaging Pearson and he gets little credit

- Performs worse than Pearson - nuff said

The only way Manning will get credit (and in turn justify JL and BTs decision) is to significantly outperform Pearson in results and performance with the same squad - and even then for some it’ll be tempered by the fact he’ll have injured players back.

I want him to do well, and am cautiously optimistic. But I also fear that the way the clowns in charge have handled things have left him in a position where he can’t win unless he does something spectacular.

 

Can’t he just be judged by what he does, and by what he achieves - not by constant comparison with his predecessor?

Two different people, different personalities, different styles, different circumstances. 

That’s a bit of a rhetorical question, because I know the answer! But it’s not going to be helpful.

But in those terms, there’s another area where he could get credit. The comments I heard from fans on Saturday included several who weren’t that surprised by or sorry about NPs departure because they haven’t enjoyed the football served up at Ashton Gate over the past couple of years. 

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, CliftonCliff said:

That was then, and this is now. The flaw in the argument, with respect, is that NP's zero tolerance of under-performing individuals was necessary and appropriate, given the culture of the club at the time. Marley Watkins? Tyreeq Bakinson? Not wanted on voyage, and rightly so.

Pearson has left the club and the squad in a place where Manning won't need to do anything similar, which is yet one more reason why the previous manager shouldn't have been sacked in the first place. 

I think WSM has already covered it, but Nige wasn’t “one chance and that’s it”, he gave players a chance to “come back”.

Bakinson is the obvious example, who I recall getting his first bit of “management” from Nige after a scoring performance v Bournemouth, but a quick reality check that he lost his man for the goal.  It wasn’t for a while that Nige “exploded” in honesty about him.

Jay Dasilva another who there wasn’t a case of not being on the bus, just needing to get a ticket in the first place.

44 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

In a lot of ways, Mannings walking into a hiding to nothing.

- Performs at the same level as Pearson (so bobbing around 10th this season) - doesn’t meet the remit of kicking on

- Performs better than Pearson but is allowed to add players - board are seen as even more complicit in sabotaging Pearson and he gets little credit

- Performs worse than Pearson - nuff said

The only way Manning will get credit (and in turn justify JL and BTs decision) is to significantly outperform Pearson in results and performance with the same squad - and even then for some it’ll be tempered by the fact he’ll have injured players back.

I want him to do well, and am cautiously optimistic. But I also fear that the way the clowns in charge have handled things have left him in a position where he can’t win unless he does something spectacular.

 

I think the difference maker for Manning will be whether we see tactical, style and performance uplift, assuming the graft and running remain.

[Cristored]

1 hour ago, CliftonCliff said:

That was then, and this is now. The flaw in the argument, with respect, is that NP's zero tolerance of under-performing individuals was necessary and appropriate, given the culture of the club at the time. Marley Watkins? Tyreeq Bakinson? Not wanted on voyage, and rightly so.

Pearson has left the club and the squad in a place where Manning won't need to do anything similar, which is yet one more reason why the previous manager shouldn't have been sacked in the first place. 

Pearson proved that he is at a point where going upstairs would be the best place for him - dis d great behind the scenes but not on the pitch .

[Davefevs]

6 minutes ago, italian dave said:

Can’t he just be judged by what he does, and by what he achieves - not by constant comparison with his predecessor?

Two different people, different personalities, different styles, different circumstances. 

That’s a bit of a rhetorical question, because I know the answer! But it’s not going to be helpful.

But in those terms, there’s another area where he could get credit. The comments I heard from fans on Saturday included several who weren’t that surprised by or sorry about NPs departure because they haven’t enjoyed the football served up at Ashton Gate over the past couple of years. 

Kinda my comment at the bottom of the post above in reply to Silvio.

[Cristored]

27 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Manning needs to I believe:

1) Get off to a bit of a flyer.

2) Maintain a consistent level, perhaps even if just short of playoffs somewhere between 10th and 6th but a meaningful tilt at the playoffs.

3) Keep at worst at the baseline he inherited. 1.4 PPG, 40% win ratio.

4) If the cheque book is opened and the injury situation remains stable. Sure injuries will always happen but a more normal level, expectations may go up a notch again.

On the flipside if the injury situation goes bad again he may get more slack.

Manning doesn’t need to do any of this. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Cristored said:

Manning doesn’t need to do any of this. 

No Jon he doesn’t, if he’s happy to be considered a failure.

[Cristored]

Just now, Countryfile said:

No Jon he doesn’t, if he’s happy to be considered a failure.

Get behind the team. Delighted he’s here.

[NcnsBcfc]

2 hours ago, Port Said Red said:

One thing I don't get from the views of and the interviews with LM is the idea that there is a bus that you are either on or off, when it comes to his view of a player.

It was something of a criticism of NP, back in the days when you could criticise him, that he was very quick to move players to one side if they did something he didn't approve of. 

Some might say that was a good thing, "my way or the highway" and I can see that to an extent,  but when it starts to have a detrimental effect on the match day squad, I think it's a worry. There was never any real explanation as to why we had two goalkeepers on the bench against Cardiff, when Pearson, Araoye or Francois could have been included. Yet Idehen was included despite being off the bus only a couple of weeks before.

Manning seems to include and consider everyone as being "coachable", so it will be interesting to see who might suddenly come back into the reckoning over the next month or so.

Can't help feeling the addition of 17 year olds(that hadn't even played for the under 21s) on the bench for a number of games instead of players like Francois, OTC, Leeson etc was some sort of NP's  hostile message to the board about lack of players.

Certainly it would have annoyed Tinnion (in my view) that players from the Under 21s weren't getting a look in and NP was using the under 18s to make a point.

Was always going to be one winner there and it wasn't NP.

[bearded_red]

Nigel Pearson inherited a bloated squad full of half hearted, overpaid bluffers. In his attempts to turn around a sinking ship and introduce a professional culture there had to be people thrown off the bus.

Liam Manning is fortunate to inherit a lean squad of committed, spirited, fit and decent pros so therefore there shouldn’t be any dead wood and players thrown aside. No doubt he will have his views on the ability of certain players but there is nobody that needs ostracising from the squad or sent out on loan while we pay their wages due to any lack of professionalism or motivation.

To be honest, I don’t remember a city manager taking the job in such a good place. That’s testament to the job the previous manager did.

Edited November 8, 2023 by bearded_red

[W-S-M Seagull]

9 minutes ago, Cristored said:

Manning doesn’t need to do any of this. 

One minute Jon you're saying you sacked Pearson because you think we should be challenging with the squad we have got.

And now you're saying Manning doesn't need to do any better than Pearson was doing even thonwe have a squad that you think should be challenging?

Sorry Jon but get the **** out of our club.

Edited November 8, 2023 by W-S-M Seagull

[Shauntaylor85]

12 minutes ago, Cristored said:

Pearson proved that he is at a point where going upstairs would be the best place for him - dis d great behind the scenes but not on the pitch .

Nige as Director of Football with a progressive Head Coach model could have worked. But not here, jobs for ex players only. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

15 minutes ago, Cristored said:

Manning doesn’t need to do any of this. 

Well maybe my post is a bit top heavy in terms of do it and do it now but not sure how patient the fans will be if we show signs of stalling or regressing given the circs in which is he has arrived.

Not his fault, more should be aimed at the board and perhaps Tinnion really.

Edited November 8, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Cristored]

2 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Well maybe my post is a bit top of heavy in terms of do it and do it now but not sure how patient the fans will be if we show signs of stalling or regressing given the circs in which is he has arrived.

Not his fault, more should be aimed at the board really.

You’re over estimating the love for Pearson, vast majority think harshly treated but move on. If you think the majority of fans will be thinking of NP in6 months then you’re deluded no offence.