Costly exercise to change coaching staff

[Spud21]

4 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Surely a change for the worse would lead it downhill, or you think it would just be looked at apathetically then? "Oh well, here we go again". If we change and it gets worse a natural reaction would be to turn a bit yeah. Perhaps you are right on this, time will tell.

We are in interesting times. Even then I remember arguments between fans in the stand maybe 3 months in, pro and Anti Pulis.

Yea it is definatley an interesting one, I think it would need to get bad off the pitch for fans to turn as I think most people see the Lansdowns ownership largely as a success. (could and should we have achieved more with the money invested, probably) but if you look at it his tenure in charge has arguably been the most successful the club has been in terms of a sustained period.

The last time we were in this division (pre Lansdown ownership think he was beginning to get involved around this time) we were a ******* embarrassment, John ward took us up and then didn't have a bean what he was doing so an knowledgeable and  talented DOF was brought in after he asked for help, he then threw his toys out of the pram and we end up with Benny who was not a manager and the structure wasn't there to give it a hope in hell of working. About the only highlight I remember from that season was losing to a Sunderland side who pissed the league but we played pretty well and Sunderland fans thought we weren't as shit as our league position suggested we would be, and a shocking penalty decision against Birmingham that basically sent us down. 

Since then we pissed around a bit in League 1 including the glorious Pulis stint and took a long while to get back up, but get up we did and since then we have largely remained stable at this level, yes we went down but it didn't take long to get back. 

So I think overall it has been our most successful period in living memory, yes we did get to the top flight for the only time in our history in the 70's, but we then went bust which drags the period as a whole down a notch. 

I live to be surprised but we weathered Millen, mcinness, SO'D and Holden so I think Manning has got to really shit the bed to "better" those as a bad expirience. 

[Superjack]

59 minutes ago, ORANGE500 said:

Give it a rest and move on  they obviously  didn't have confidence in Nigel Pearson to progress the team beyond mid-table and given the performances and results over the last 3 years that's not an outlandish conclusion.

Why don't you give it a rest and open your eyes?

I mean, you have had about twenty years to do it. 

Unless of course, you are on the payroll...

[bcfc01]

1 hour ago, Fuber said:

Socials -  could of course be parroting bs, but iirc correctly first touted either Oxford end or Sky.

I would be surprised if it is 600k, I would think closer to 100k.

General opinion seems to be that it is around a years salary for LM and he was nowhere near on 600k.

 

[pillred]

56 minutes ago, Spud21 said:

Do you not think if that were the case it would have happened previously? 

I really think that the fan base at larges opinion on this is being massively skewed by the representation on here. There is a section that is angry but I don't think that anger is spread outside of a relatively small group, if huge swathes of people really were as angry I think it would have shown far more on Saturday which was let's face it another absolute rotter of a performance against a shit side with 10 men. 

The only time I can remember the fan base "turning" in my time supporting City was Pulis, and let's be real we have been in far worse places than we are now in the time I have been going (mid 90s)

Not saying it's beyond the realms of possibility but the non forum people I speak to or stand near in S24 were largely disappointed and dint like the way it was done but in the grand scheme of things not in any way angry about it. 

If we start to play well and a few of our injured players come back results are good dare I say it but like with an ex-girlfriend a lot of those now moaning will move on and soon forget NP harsh as that sounds, it's just what happens in life.

[Mr Popodopolous]

11 minutes ago, pillred said:

If we start to play well and a few of our injured players come back results are good dare I say it but like with an ex-girlfriend a lot of those now moaning will move on and soon forget NP harsh as that sounds, it's just what happens in life.

Well yeah, Manning if he wins games and a healthy ratio of the disgruntled fans and doubters will in a lot of cases get back on board.

If he starts slowly or even badly though, or even if there is a notable drop off from the position and pts return he inherited..hmm..goes for the hierarchy too of course, perhaps moreso.

Winning games and a decent number of them is the best remedy for a manager. The hierarchy? Similar I guess but he needs to go a bit beyond to improve their rep IMO.

Edited November 10, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[W-S-M Seagull]

1 hour ago, Spud21 said:

Do you not think if that were the case it would have happened previously? 

I really think that the fan base at larges opinion on this is being massively skewed by the representation on here. There is a section that is angry but I don't think that anger is spread outside of a relatively small group, if huge swathes of people really were as angry I think it would have shown far more on Saturday which was let's face it another absolute rotter of a performance against a shit side with 10 men. 

The only time I can remember the fan base "turning" in my time supporting City was Pulis, and let's be real we have been in far worse places than we are now in the time I have been going (mid 90s)

Not saying it's beyond the realms of possibility but the non forum people I speak to or stand near in S24 were largely disappointed and dint like the way it was done but in the grand scheme of things not in any way angry about it. 

If you think the support for Nigel is exclusive to this platform then you are seriously deluded mate. 

I sit in S24 just like you. Do you want me to send you the videos of the pro Nigel Pearson songs from our last game as I'm assuming you wasn't there? 

[Spud21]

4 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

If you think the support for Nigel is exclusive to this platform then you are seriously deluded mate. 

I sit in S24 just like you. Do you want me to send you the videos of the pro Nigel Pearson songs from our last game as I'm assuming you wasn't there? 

I was singing them you dozy *****. 

But it wasn't even close to being all of the corner, Cornicks chant was and is significantly louder. 

And both were way louder than the one anti Lansdown one that sort of got going. 

[W-S-M Seagull]

Just now, Spud21 said:

I was singing them you dozy *****. 

But it wasn't even close to being all of the corner, Cornicks chant was and is significantly louder. 

And both were way louder than the one anti Lansdown one that sort of got going. 

Welcome to my block list. 

 

[Spud21]

1 minute ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Welcome to my block list. 

 

What's that? Can't take people with an opinion calling out you making shit up over and over again. 

You cry free speech yet its you who crys about others opinions more than anyone and rolls out the constant lazy Bristol Sport bot indults.

Take your block list and get ******. 

 

 

 

[W-S-M Seagull]

9 minutes ago, Spud21 said:

What's that? Can't take people with an opinion calling out you making shit up over and over again. 

You cry free speech yet its you who crys about others opinions more than anyone and rolls out the constant lazy Bristol Sport bot indults.

Take your block list and get ******. 

 

 

 

I don't wish to engage with some one who has to use insults, in lowers the standard of the place. This isn't Bristol City Till I Die.

You're coming across as a very angry person.

Take care x

Edited November 10, 2023 by W-S-M Seagull

[Major Isewater]

6 hours ago, Spud21 said:

John ward took us up and then didn't have a bean what he was doing so an knowledgeable and  talented DOF was brought in after he asked for help, he then threw his toys out of the pram

If I recall correctly Ward did ask for help but wanted Mick Harford as his assistant. 
Benny was bought in without any consultation with JW. very much undermining his position. 
Another cock up by the club. 

[Spud21]

57 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

If I recall correctly Ward did ask for help but wanted Mick Harford as his assistant. 
Benny was bought in without any consultation with JW. very much undermining his position. 
Another cock up by the club. 

See I remember it more that he asked for help, but would only accept Mick Harford and when it wasn't him spat his dummy out. 

Now why the club didn't want Harford god knows, but if you've come out and said that you need help and don't know what You are doing, I'm not sure you then retain the right to have a cry if the club don't go with your choice of help. 

Edited November 10, 2023 by Spud21

[Spud21]

4 minutes ago, Spud21 said:

See I remember it more that he asked for help, but would only accept Mick Harford and when it wasn't him spat his dummy out. 

Now why the club didn't want Harford god knows, but if you've come out and said that you need help and don't know what You are doing, I'm not sure you then retain the right to get to cry if the club don't go with your choice of help. 

Umm god knows what this is, seem to have quoted and not edited sorry. 

Edited November 10, 2023 by Spud21

[RedRoss]

9 hours ago, Fuber said:

We know for Manning it was £600k, and if we assuming Pearson's contract was circa £15kpw over 36 weeks, so circa £450k-550k.

Add staff (Assume £6kpw for Assistant, Medical. Coach at £4kpw) for further another circa £500k.

You'd probably be talking around £1m for NP, Rennie, Fleming, Euell.

For Manning, Hogg, Krause, probably £900k (longer contracts).

Include agent fees, it's probably circa £2m. Could have bought a another decent midfielder for that, which I'd of preferred. But we're here now with no NP. So...

Calculations on the back of a fag packet springs to mind.

You've over estimated Manning/staff costs way too high and Nige's/staff too low.

Here's a survey from 3 years ago. You'll see the average for a Championship manager is 878k and the drop off to League One is substantial to 182k.

 

We'll likely have had to pay the remainder of a couple of months of Nige's larger wages and his staff. I listened to BBC Oxford Radio when the news broke and they discussed the compensation package and they understood it that Manning was on a 12 month rolling contract so we ultimately bought him out of that year. Would of been nowhere near 600k. His new contract with us will be larger than his last in League One and I'm almost certain he's doubled his last salary but it will still be less than half of what Nige's would of cost.

[RedM]

10 hours ago, RedRoss said:

Yes initially we have to pay off outgoing staff for the short remainder of their existing contract and compensation for new staff from Oxford. However, you're not factoring in the money we would have spent on renewing Nige, Fleming and Rennie in the coming months. I guarantee they were on a much larger financial package than Manning and co are. Perhaps we've taken a hit now but over the longer term the finances even out.

I was trying to work this out too. I mentioned somewhere else about paying off Pearson and was told we would be paying him anyway which of course is true. But then we have paid off Pearson, paid compensation to Oxford and additionally manning has to be paid a salary too so that is considerably more expensive than just keeping Pearson.

I've heard some figures which i believe. The cost of paying Oxford plus Mannings wages are roughly what we had to pay Pearson to buy up his contract, he was expensive. Add in the other changes to staff and I would think we are in positive balance, financially anyway.

 

[Spud21]

26 minutes ago, RedM said:

I was trying to work this out too. I mentioned somewhere else about paying off Pearson and was told we would be paying him anyway which of course is true. But then we have paid off Pearson, paid compensation to Oxford and additionally manning has to be paid a salary too so that is considerably more expensive than just keeping Pearson.

I've heard some figures which i believe. The cost of paying Oxford plus Mannings wages are roughly what we had to pay Pearson to buy up his contract, he was expensive. Add in the other changes to staff and I would think we are in positive balance, financially anyway.

 

I assume as well without being privvy to our internal documentation that there are entries in any budget and thus money set aside to be used if you get rid of your manager, such is football it would not surprise me if there was not only budget aside to pay of Nige and staff, but also to potentially pay off his replacement should he come in and drop a huge turd on Jon Lansdowns desk. 

I also assume that any compensation would like a transfer fee be amortised over the course of his contract as well "reducing" the immediate costs from an accounting perspective. 

[Fuber]

26 minutes ago, RedRoss said:

Calculations on the back of a fag packet springs to mind.

You've over estimated Manning/staff costs way too high and Nige's/staff too low.

Here's a survey from 3 years ago. You'll see the average for a Championship manager is 878k and the drop off to League One is substantial to 182k.

 

We'll likely have had to pay the remainder of a couple of months of Nige's larger wages and his staff. I listened to BBC Oxford Radio when the news broke and they discussed the compensation package and they understood it that Manning was on a 12 month rolling contract so we ultimately bought him out of that year. Would of been nowhere near 600k. His new contract with us will be larger than his last in League One and I'm almost certain he's doubled his last salary but it will still be less than half of what Nige's would of cost.

 For context, I don't agree with the £600k figure. I'm only going off what's been reported and speculated. We know there was some kind of buyout clause due to their being speculation in the first instance.

The very fact Piercy confirms a buyout clause - it's unlikely it's a rolling contract. It's also minimum of six figures. (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/bristol-city-oxford-liam-manning-8886718.amp).

Nor is FM a reliable source - but they corroborate this by having Mannings (of which contract lengths was not disclosed on his appointment) tied to 2026. The only sign of this being at all accurate is the fact we offered a deal to 2027.

Based on the above using that average salary figure from your quote above, it's likely a buyout was a minimum figure of £350k if tied to 2026. Adding circa £170k for Hogg (who FM have tied to 2025, along with Krause).

So it's likely the entire package is actually closer to £650k at worst using those estimates.

[Bristol Rob]

1 hour ago, Spud21 said:

See I remember it more that he asked for help, but would only accept Mick Harford and when it wasn't him spat his dummy out. 

Now why the club didn't want Harford god knows, but if you've come out and said that you need help and don't know what You are doing, I'm not sure you then retain the right to have a cry if the club don't go with your choice of help. 

The story (as told to me by Scott Davidson), was that Ward wanted Roy Hodgson.

Roy was happy to come in, but only for 2 days a week 

Benny was a highly respected coach on the continent at the time so the club decided to employ him instead.

Obviously Ward felt undermined and wanted to quit, but the LMA advised him not to, until a severance package had been agreed. It was, he left and then Benny became manager.

 

[GrahamC]

1 hour ago, Spud21 said:

See I remember it more that he asked for help, but would only accept Mick Harford and when it wasn't him spat his dummy out. 

Now why the club didn't want Harford god knows, but if you've come out and said that you need help and don't know what You are doing, I'm not sure you then retain the right to have a cry if the club don't go with your choice of help. 

Ray Harford.

[Fuber]

10 hours ago, Spreadsheet Boy said:

Guess the “sacked 4” were already in the budget, so just the new guys are “extra spending”.

From an FFP perspective, budgeting wouldn't matter as we'd take the hit on compensation this season either way.

We'd alternatively have reduced running/salary costs, which if nothing else is likely more sustainable.

[Spud21]

10 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Ray Harford.

Ah tits, wrong Harford, my bad. But also could have been Roy Hodgson it seems (hadn't heard that before I must say) 

[Spud21]

16 minutes ago, Bristol Rob said:

The story (as told to me by Scott Davidson), was that Ward wanted Roy Hodgson.

Roy was happy to come in, but only for 2 days a week 

Benny was a highly respected coach on the continent at the time so the club decided to employ him instead.

Obviously Ward felt undermined and wanted to quit, but the LMA advised him not to, until a severance package had been agreed. It was, he left and then Benny became manager.

 

Interesting had not heard that before (or if I had I don't remember it) but that to me makes it even worse that he walked as not doubting Roy's abilities as a manager but what could he achieve in 2 days a week? So can understand the club not going for it tbf. 

[RedM]

51 minutes ago, Spud21 said:

I assume as well without being privvy to our internal documentation that there are entries in any budget and thus money set aside to be used if you get rid of your manager, such is football it would not surprise me if there was not only budget aside to pay of Nige and staff, but also to potentially pay off his replacement should he come in and drop a huge turd on Jon Lansdowns desk. 

I also assume that any compensation would like a transfer fee be amortised over the course of his contract as well "reducing" the immediate costs from an accounting perspective. 

I would imagine there are a lot of 'what if's' yes. Afterall someone could have poached Pearson and half his team and that money would have been set aside to get replacements and not used for players. All this stuff must be considered when setting yearly budgets as you say.

[supercidered]

8 hours ago, bcfc01 said:

I would be surprised if it is 600k, I would think closer to 100k.

General opinion seems to be that it is around a years salary for LM and he was nowhere near on 600k.

 

I wonder what LM is being paid by City now?

I must admit, I'm surprised that the average for a League 1 Manager / Head coach is only 100k to 150k pa though. Seems a bit low to me.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Spud21 said:

See I remember it more that he asked for help, but would only accept Mick Harford and when it wasn't him spat his dummy out. 

Now why the club didn't want Harford god knows, but if you've come out and said that you need help and don't know what You are doing, I'm not sure you then retain the right to have a cry if the club don't go with your choice of help. 

I think there’s a difference between “need help” because “you don’t know what you’re doing” and because the club needs more resources / better structure, etc, in a higher division.

53 minutes ago, Spud21 said:

I assume as well without being privvy to our internal documentation that there are entries in any budget and thus money set aside to be used if you get rid of your manager, such is football it would not surprise me if there was not only budget aside to pay of Nige and staff, but also to potentially pay off his replacement should he come in and drop a huge turd on Jon Lansdowns desk. 

I also assume that any compensation would like a transfer fee be amortised over the course of his contract as well "reducing" the immediate costs from an accounting perspective. 

No, managers and staff (not players) are not treated as intangible assets, and therefore “poaching” a manager will result in a one off cost of the compensation fee into the accounts immediately.

[Spud21]

1 minute ago, supercidered said:

I wonder what LM is being paid by City now?

I must admit, I'm surprised that the average for a League 1 Manager / Head coach is only 100k to 150k pa though. Seems a bit low to me.

I would expect it probably fluctuates relatively wildly depending on who goes up and down (the figures are loosely based on some data from a while back, pre covid I think) so they could be Higher now. 

This season if you had figures I'd expect them to be potentially quite low as you've Lost Wednesday and Ipswich who I would expect were on the higher end of pay, (tbf god knows that Chansori could be paying loads or peanuts) and gained a couple of Basket cases in Reading and Wigan who probably can't pay much. And the bigger clubs at that level have been there for a while so guess budgets have adjusted somewhat, as there are a good number of small clubs in league 1 that don't have the resources to pay much for a manager comparatively speaking. 

So my considered conclusion is that I haven't got a clue, but it is certainly an interesting topic. 

[supercidered]

6 minutes ago, supercidered said:

I wonder what LM is being paid by City now?

I must admit, I'm surprised that the average for a League 1 Manager / Head coach is only 100k to 150k pa though. Seems a bit low to me.

Apologies. Just seen the RedRoss post above. Mind you if that is 3 years ago, maybe things have changed since COVID. 

[ExiledAjax]

Does anyone seriously think that the costs of changing managers and coaches are drawn from the same pool as the transfer and player wages budget?

[Spud21]

9 minutes ago, Spreadsheet Boy said:

think there’s a difference between “need help” because “you don’t know what you’re doing” and because the club needs more resources / better structure, etc, in a higher division

I agree however my recollection of how were were playing and doing at the time goes more towards the not a sausage what he was doing, don't think he ever did anything at that level to suggest he was much good, we only got promoted because we were 17 points or something mad clear when Goater left. 

So yes I agree there are different types of help but my thinking is the error was to even try and not just sack the bloke. 

And thanks for the point in how it's accounted for didn't know that. 

Edited November 10, 2023 by Spud21

[RedM]

9 hours ago, bcfc01 said:

I would be surprised if it is 600k, I would think closer to 100k.

General opinion seems to be that it is around a years salary for LM and he was nowhere near on 600k.

 

But that's apparently what we paid. It must be for all the Oxford staff not just Manning himself perhaps?