Robins Uncut - 080

[W-S-M Seagull]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

indeed.

This is what frustrates me when we hear the soundbites like we want an “on the grass coach”.  What did they think Curtis and Jase were doing.  Fine if their view was they weren’t performing well in their duties, but it’s made to sound like there was no coaching (because Nige wasn’t taking it) and the players were left to their own devices.

I can only assume the likes of Akex, Antoine, Cam, Zak, etc, coached themselves to improving.

I joked before they sacked Nige that we would soon get rid of the managers role just like we did with the CEO role. 

We've got rid of Nige, Curtis and Fleming and replaced them with Manning and Hogg* so essentially 'on the grass' it's no different numbers wise. 

That's the current theme in football these days. The thinking is why employ a manager plus a coach when you can just employ a coach and give him a few added responsibilities? 

In previous times I'm not sure Manning would have progressed beyond being a coach.

The real winner in all of this is Tinnion, either by design, deceit or default. With the CEO role disappearing and the manager role he's been able to power grab. That's my conclusion anyways. 

I've never really liked the head coach role. I think you miss out on something that's hard to quantify by not having an actual manager. 

Pearson had that something about him which players seemed to love because theyd run through brick walls for him. Whilst Nige could come across as prickly and abbresive in interviews, towards his players and staff he was a very warm person. Like a father figure and thats no doubt had a huge impact on Scott, Conway, Vyner, Bell etc. 

We don't know a lot about this but I'm sure his guidance for Scott was incredibly important. I'll never forget how Nige had a Alex Scott cup at his house. Very proud father esque that was. 

Can Manning be a very good coach and that sort of father figure? We will soon find out. 

*we have brought in a analyst/coach so that may change numbers slightly. But then we also lost Rennie who's job was quite varied.

[maxjak]

15 hours ago, elhombrecito said:

Our training kit has come in many many non-red colours over the years. Why the issue with sky blue, but none of the previous colours? 

The clue is in the word  ............BLUE!  Ha!

[Oh Louie louie]

One of the holidays clough had to return from, was a cup replay with QPR, don't think he was happy about that and ended up punching about five different forest fans that night

[maxjak]

12 minutes ago, Harvey86 said:

It's like that wrapped present under the Xmas tree - it's the shape of a BMX, you can see the wheels and the handlebars under the paper, you stay up all night thinking about the tricks you're going to do on it, and then you unwrap it Christmas morning and, inexplicably, it's socks.

Wowser  I now know what i want for Xmas! ......Two Wheel Drive Sock's!                        

[Bristol Rob]

6 minutes ago, maxjak said:

Wowser  I now know what i want for Xmas! ......Two Wheel Drive Sock's!                        

I am going to get some Mehmeti socks and do an endo in them.

[Davefevs]

32 minutes ago, Harvey86 said:

It's like that wrapped present under the Xmas tree - it's the shape of a BMX, you can see the wheels and the handlebars under the paper, you stay up all night thinking about the tricks you're going to do on it, and then you unwrap it Christmas morning and, inexplicably, it's socks.

Funny, because I had a present under my tree that looked like a pair of socks wrapped up, but when I opened it found it was a BMX!

[cidercity1987]

32 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

I joked before they sacked Nige that we would soon get rid of the managers role just like we did with the CEO role. 

We've got rid of Nige, Curtis and Fleming and replaced them with Manning and Hogg* so essentially 'on the grass' it's no different numbers wise. 

That's the current theme in football these days. The thinking is why employ a manager plus a coach when you can just employ a coach and give him a few added responsibilities? 

In previous times I'm not sure Manning would have progressed beyond being a coach.

The real winner in all of this is Tinnion, either by design, deceit or default. With the CEO role disappearing and the manager role he's been able to power grab. That's my conclusion anyways. 

I've never really liked the head coach role. I think you miss out on something that's hard to quantify by not having an actual manager. 

Pearson had that something about him which players seemed to love because theyd run through brick walls for him. Whilst Nige could come across as prickly and abbresive in interviews, towards his players and staff he was a very warm person. Like a father figure and thats no doubt had a huge impact on Scott, Conway, Vyner, Bell etc. 

We don't know a lot about this but I'm sure his guidance for Scott was incredibly important. I'll never forget how Nige had a Alex Scott cup at his house. Very proud father esque that was. 

Can Manning be a very good coach and that sort of father figure? We will soon find out. 

*we have brought in a analyst/coach so that may change numbers slightly. But then we also lost Rennie who's job was quite varied.

Going back a year ago looking at a future restructuring I have no clue whatsoever why you would promote Tinnion to a role he has no gravitas for, instead of giving it to Pearson. 

I can see an argument that we might be better off with Manning instead of Fleming or Euell but Manning instead of Pearson no bloody way.

Maybe they did have these kind of conversations with Nige and he turned it down

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, cidercity1987 said:

Going back a year ago looking at a future restructuring I have no clue whatsoever why you would promote Tinnion to a role he has no gravitas for, instead of giving it to Pearson. 

I can see an argument that we might be better off with Manning instead of Fleming or Euell but Manning instead of Pearson no bloody way.

Maybe they did have these kind of conversations with Nige and he turned it down

I honestly don’t think Nige would want that type of role.  He is a Football Manager, not a DoF or any other acronym used to describe those types of role.

[Meh]

43 minutes ago, Robbored said:

It’s JL attempting to add justification to why Nige was sacked. The ‘not doing as well as expected’  was a poor excuse that didn’t hold any credibility given that City were in touching distance of the top six - despite the lengthy injury list.

The bottom line is that the Lansdowns found Nige too difficult to work with and that’s the real reason that he was sacked.

 

I never considered that but now you say it I reckon that you are on to something there.

Cannot believe this is not being discussed more; granted it is just a theory and “don’t shoot the messenger” but I am reeling

[cidercity1987]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I honestly don’t think Nige would want that type of role.  He is a Football Manager, not a DoF or any other acronym used to describe those types of role.

What's the difference between Pearsons take on the football manager role as opposed to Tinnions job spec now?

Interested to know

[Robbored]

11 minutes ago, cidercity1987 said:

What's the difference between Pearsons take on the football manager role as opposed to Tinnions job spec now?

Interested to know

The managers role at City is far more ‘hands on’ in the day to day supervision of the players, selecting the matchday squad, deciding on what formation/shape best suits the available players in discussion with his coaching staff but ultimately it’s his final decision.

Tinnions role is to provide recruitment updates, particularly those involved in the academy - whether or not part of his remit is still to oversee loaned out players I don’t know but he certainly used to spend hours on the road.

[Harry]

1 hour ago, Bristol Rob said:

I am going to get some Mehmeti socks and do an endo in them.

It’s progression from you wiping it on the curtains. 

[Galley is our king]

1 hour ago, cidercity1987 said:

What's the difference between Pearsons take on the football manager role as opposed to Tinnions job spec now?

Interested to know

Pearson knew what he was talking about...

[Bristol Rob]

8 minutes ago, Harry said:

It’s progression from you wiping it on the curtains. 

I've had to adapt since having blinds fitted.

[Harry]

Just now, Bristol Rob said:

I've had to adapt since having blinds fitted.

I had heard it can send you blind …. 

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, cidercity1987 said:

What's the difference between Pearsons take on the football manager role as opposed to Tinnions job spec now?

Interested to know

It’s a good question, because I saw Nige’s role as more rounded than the old-school Football Manager role anyway.  But I guess he was certainly a key player in setting the football strategy, inc recruitment, but not overly active in “doing the doing”.

For example, LJ would be getting hands-on in the talent ID aspects of recruitment, Nige won’t, but Tins will be managing it at a bare minimum.  I don’t know if Tins would dabble with Statsbomb, but you can bet Nige won’t.

Nige won’t deal with Agents, nor players til late in the process, whereas that will form a key part of Tim’s role.

Those are a couple of the differences I saw.

[Leabrook]

9 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Thanks for your contribution Jon.

What are your thoughts on Sir Alex watching the vast majority of training rather than coaching during him time as Man Utd manager?

No worries Nige. I would say he did that after he’d established himself there and took sessions himself.  You couldn’t even be bothered to coach from the start 

[DaveInSA]

6 hours ago, maxjak said:

The clue is in the word  ............BLUE!  Ha!

it isn't blue. its aqua.

[PHILINFRANCE]

3 hours ago, Leabrook said:

No worries Nige. I would say he did that after he’d established himself there and took sessions himself.  You couldn’t even be bothered to coach from the start 

I really shouldn't have condescended to respond, but what a pathetic retort.

[Leabrook]

18 minutes ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

I really shouldn't have condescended to respond, but what a pathetic retort.

It was flippant for sure.  As pathetic as someone who just says anyone who disagrees with them must be Jon Lansdown? Maybe it is. Very tiring response to a point of view though!

[W-S-M Seagull]

15 minutes ago, Leabrook said:

It was flippant for sure.  As pathetic as someone who just says anyone who disagrees with them must be Jon Lansdown? Maybe it is. Very tiring response to a point of view though!

Aa you're a 'new poster' you may not be aware that recently we have had lots of Bristol Sport employees come on here and make derogatory posts about Pearson and positive ones about Manning and those who run the club. 

That's why your post is rather suspicious.

[Leabrook]

9 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Aa you're a 'new poster' you may not be aware that recently we have had lots of Bristol Sport employees come on here and make derogatory posts about Pearson and positive ones about Manning and those who run the club. 

That's why your post is rather suspicious.

I know you hate being wrong and won’t ever admit it but in this case I can assure you that you are 

[W-S-M Seagull]

9 hours ago, Robbored said:

Tinnions role is to provide recruitment updates, particularly those involved in the academy - whether or not part of his remit is still to oversee loaned out players I don’t know but he certainly used to spend hours on the road.

Thats what Tinnions role was. Its not any more. I believe he's taken on far more responsibility since both Alexander and Pearson has left. 

It's basically been streamlined. 

Existing staff have taken on more responsibilities. Manning and Hogg simply replace Fleming and Euell. Whilst Manning may have some of the responsibilities that Pearson had, Tinnion has taken on the rest. 

Pearson was involved in things like the structure, organisational stuff. Pretty much everything bar commercial stuff. He may have not got into the nitty gritty of things but he was at the table when those decisions were made. Hence why he is held in such high regard by our fans for the part he played in rebuilding the club.

Previously it was Alexander/Gould, Pearson and Tinnion involved. 

Now it looks a bit more like Tinnion is the only person at the table. Well there is Tom Rawcliffe and Jon but Tins is the main man now. The below says he is making all the football decisions. 

Manning is simply a glorified coach who will not be involved in many of the things Pearson was involved with. Maybe a bit of recruitment but that's about it.

 

11 minutes ago, Leabrook said:

I know you hate being wrong and won’t ever admit it but in this case I can assure you that you are 

It appears you think you may know me? 

Very strange considering you only have 17 posts to your name...

[Lordofthebling]

My god this guy loves Anis...

[spudski]

12 hours ago, Harry said:

Personally I am really encouraged by the message he was giving here. 
I’ve said many times that we get a lot of basics wrong - particularly in terms of how we pass and receive the ball. 
Seeing the boss pick up on this is very encouraging for me. 

What pisses me off the most is it's the basics. 

So many basics are done wrong, yet hours are spent on non basics to try and make a small margin difference.

Pass to correct side to receive at right pace. Body shape ready to receive without having to take second touch. Throw in to feet, rather than having to control and take a touch. Create angle. Move into space rather than behind opposition and stop pass. Etc etc. 

When watching, it's those basics that get ignored it seems. Yet other metrics focused on before getting those right. 

[W-S-M Seagull]

10 minutes ago, spudski said:

What pisses me off the most is it's the basics. 

So many basics are done wrong, yet hours are spent on non basics to try and make a small margin difference.

Pass to correct side to receive at right pace. Body shape ready to receive without having to take second touch. Throw in to feet, rather than having to control and take a touch. Create angle. Move into space rather than behind opposition and stop pass. Etc etc. 

When watching, it's those basics that get ignored it seems. Yet other metrics focused on before getting those right. 

Do you think Nige, Euell and Fleming having been professional footballers at good levels, ignored those basics? I don't. 

[spudski]

Just now, W-S-M Seagull said:

Do you think Nige, Euell and Fleming having been professional footballers at good levels, ignored those basics? I don't. 

Or the players didn't take it on board in the heat of battle. 

It's noticeable when you watch higher class teams, that do it ' naturally ' or ingrained coached. 

[Kibs]

53 minutes ago, Lordofthebling said:

My god this guy loves Anis...

Good. He looked a terrific signing when he arrived. Hopefully Manning can turn him a round and ensure it’s not a load of money wasted. 

[Red Skin]

23 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

I joked before they sacked Nige that we would soon get rid of the managers role just like we did with the CEO role. 

We've got rid of Nige, Curtis and Fleming and replaced them with Manning and Hogg* so essentially 'on the grass' it's no different numbers wise. 

That's the current theme in football these days. The thinking is why employ a manager plus a coach when you can just employ a coach and give him a few added responsibilities? 

In previous times I'm not sure Manning would have progressed beyond being a coach.

The real winner in all of this is Tinnion, either by design, deceit or default. With the CEO role disappearing and the manager role he's been able to power grab. That's my conclusion anyways. 

I've never really liked the head coach role. I think you miss out on something that's hard to quantify by not having an actual manager. 

Pearson had that something about him which players seemed to love because theyd run through brick walls for him. Whilst Nige could come across as prickly and abbresive in interviews, towards his players and staff he was a very warm person. Like a father figure and thats no doubt had a huge impact on Scott, Conway, Vyner, Bell etc. 

We don't know a lot about this but I'm sure his guidance for Scott was incredibly important. I'll never forget how Nige had a Alex Scott cup at his house. Very proud father esque that was. 

Can Manning be a very good coach and that sort of father figure? We will soon find out. 

*we have brought in a analyst/coach so that may change numbers slightly. But then we also lost Rennie who's job was quite varied.

Leaving aside the personalities in these roles, I think we have moved to a more sustainable structure.

The head coach model:

Technical director/DoF sets the footballing ethos or identity of the club.  We develop players in the academy to suit this ethos and style of play.  We recruit first team players that fit with this.  We choose a head coach to coach this. 

If the head coach moves one - either sacked or is headhunted - then the new head coach just takes over and there is limited impact on the rest of the footballing structure.

The manager model:

The manager decides the footballing ethos and is involved in recruitment to get players to fit with this.  The academy adapts to fit with this style so academy player are able to progress to the first team. 

The manager moves on - sacked or headhunter - and the impact of the rest of the club is massive.

The new manager wants his own players to fit his style.  We are stuck with bloated squad players from the last manager, that the new manager doesn't want.  The academy need to overhauled at all levels to fit with the new manager's ethos.

For me, the head coach model just makes sense.  Brentford, Brighton, Swansea have made it work.

The manager model is great if your manager is Alex Ferguson, is successful and stays for 20+ years, but how often does that happen in football?  And just look at the mess United are in since Fergie (and Martin Edwards) left!

Getting the right appointment for DoF/Technical director is obviously vital.  And who knows whether Tinnion is the right man, but you cannot question his passion for or dedication to the club.  

I was gutted at the timing for implementing the model.  I didn't want Pearson sacked.  But, for me, we needed to move to the head coach model at some stage.  

 

[Davefevs]

31 minutes ago, Red Skin said:

Leaving aside the personalities in these roles, I think we have moved to a more sustainable structure.

The head coach model:

Technical director/DoF sets the footballing ethos or identity of the club.  We develop players in the academy to suit this ethos and style of play.  We recruit first team players that fit with this.  We choose a head coach to coach this. 

If the head coach moves one - either sacked or is headhunted - then the new head coach just takes over and there is limited impact on the rest of the footballing structure.

The manager model:

The manager decides the footballing ethos and is involved in recruitment to get players to fit with this.  The academy adapts to fit with this style so academy player are able to progress to the first team. 

The manager moves on - sacked or headhunter - and the impact of the rest of the club is massive.

The new manager wants his own players to fit his style.  We are stuck with bloated squad players from the last manager, that the new manager doesn't want.  The academy need to overhauled at all levels to fit with the new manager's ethos.

For me, the head coach model just makes sense.  Brentford, Brighton, Swansea have made it work.

The manager model is great if your manager is Alex Ferguson, is successful and stays for 20+ years, but how often does that happen in football?  And just look at the mess United are in since Fergie (and Martin Edwards) left!

Getting the right appointment for DoF/Technical director is obviously vital.  And who knows whether Tinnion is the right man, but you cannot question his passion for or dedication to the club.  

I was gutted at the timing for implementing the model.  I didn't want Pearson sacked.  But, for me, we needed to move to the head coach model at some stage.  

 

I think in Bristol City’s case, Nige was a key setter of the strategy, but not because it was for his benefit selfishly, but because it was needed by the club and there was nobody else at BS3 to do it.  The strategy wasn’t Nige-specific, it was built objectively by him and Richard Gould to try to create a club that could get to and stay in the PL, but playing wide and finances wise.

A big part of that was the power, pace, run all day profile of players both in terms of getting the players already here up to the levels, but also a big factor in who to recruit.  Manning himself referenced that on Day 1 that it is something all successful sides have…and that he saw that in City.

The model doesn’t define the outcomes, the people and the processes do.

(that feels like me repeating my mantra of - formations don’t win games, players do)

Imho we’ve lost 2 key people (Nige and RG) with a set of very strong skills between them.  JL, GM and Tins have all referenced this isn’t a “rip it up and start again” structure but an evolving structure.  But we will have to see whether the people they’ve put into the structure can do what the previous incumbents did.  Adding more people doesn’t mean you have the skills.

We’ve gone from a very simple structure of RG / NP to RG / NP / BT (when announced as TD), which from the outside looking in, seemed spot on.

We replaced RG with PA, to create PA / NP / BT.  We didn’t see or hear much from PA, but the pure football part seemed well aligned.

We then replaced PA with a combo of GM and TR to create GM / TR / NP / BT.  We didn’t have time to evaluate this before NP was sacked.

We now have:

Gavin Marshall / Tom Rawcliffe / Brian Tinnion / Liam Manning

FWIW I think that set up is missing some of the skills (AND EXPERIENCE) that RG and NP brought.  I don’t think doubling the people but diluting the roles in some cases actually helps.  I don’t think Richard or Nige were perfect either, but they brought clarity to what we were trying to achieve.

Also, at the same time we’ve restructured the Medical Team.

+++++

I don’t think having a title of manager or head-coach per se drives how it works or how it needs to work.  It’s just a title.

Tinnion has put himself right in the firing line.  We will have to wait and see if he’s up to it.  Although it’s probably Manning that will feel the squeeze.  It certainly won’t be GM or TR.  JL will slope off into the background again, so next in line is Tins.

My regularly used phrase at the mo’ is - it all seems a bit unnecessary!