Sin Bins In Football

[Jose]

2 hours ago, And Its Smith said:

Awful idea. The team down to 10 will just go super defensive until they are back to 11.  VAR is now exactly where I thought it would be when they were discussing that. Stop ******* with the game 

I couldn’t agree more. It will completely ruin the game ( more ). It will happen too often, the team will sit back and completely ruin the spectacle. 

[Red from afar]

We had a young ref that used to officiate some my school matches in the 90s. An odd fellow, but anyone who back chatted got booked immediately, if they complained he booked them again and sent them off. If they swore at him they were sent straight off.

We very quickly learnt not to do it and gladly took advantage of other teams rapidly getting reduced to 9 men.

[Markthehorn]

1 hour ago, Jose said:

I couldn’t agree more. It will completely ruin the game ( more ). It will happen too often, the team will sit back and completely ruin the spectacle. 

Time waste for 10 minutes too .

[The Bard]

11 hours ago, Robbored said:

The TMO in rugby is pretty much VaR but because it’s been in place far longer it’s use is much slicker.

No.

Referee is in control in rugby and decisions are made publicly. 

It's not slick, it's collaborative rather than the stitch up in football 

[Robbored]

5 minutes ago, The Bard said:

No.

Referee is in control in rugby and decisions are made publicly. 

It's not slick, it's collaborative rather than the stitch up in football 

Surely that’s something that could be available in VaR decisions?

Would FIFA/ PGMOL allow that tho?

Anyone who saw that penalty awarded to PSG last night was all down to VaR advising the referee to visit the monitor. It was then that the pen was awarded.

Two points - VaR thought that there had been a ‘clear and obvious error’ and sent the referee to review the incident who then awarded the penalty so it was he who made the final decision which almost everyone agrees was extremely dodgy - would he had made a different decision had the communication between him and VaR been public?

[cityexile]

11 hours ago, Markthehorn said:

Time waste for 10 minutes too .

That is the thing for me. Football is one of the few sports that has a 'live' clock where time is added on at the end. I like the idea in principle, but in practise if a key player is off for ten, its just going to be a license to waste as much time as you can. You can have a 3 minute 'injury' that might get added to injury time, but would presumably still count as sin bin time. 

[cidercity]

The Games gone, as soon as VAR hits the championship it's Bristol Manor Farm for me.

Edited November 29, 2023 by cidercity

[YorksRed]

The one obvious use would be to combat abuse to the referee.  A 5 minute sin bin would reduce that dramatically and it would not be quite as contentious or impacting as a second yellow/red card.  The players would soon learn too.

[Tim Monaghan]

19 hours ago, Steve Watts said:

Too much backwards passing?  I was offended by that specific tactic on Saturday....

The tactic that won us the game against a team that had lost 1 in 12 you mean? Imagine getting offended by a win. 

[Cowshed]

18 hours ago, Crackers Corner said:

I didn't know that

Reading the thread I don't think you are alone. Sins bins have been used at varying levels since 2019. From youth football to U23 and some adult leagues.

sin-bins-infographic.pdf

 

Edited November 29, 2023 by Cowshed

[RoystonFoote'snephew]

Refereeing is tough and respect for the job is due but that respect has to be earned not commanded. I want to see more commitment to referee training as right now it seems inadequate. In over 60 years of watching professional football I genuinely believe the current crop officiating the Prem and EFL to be the worst I've seen, rubber stamped when I consider Keith Stroud to be one of the best. 

VAR has made refereeing harder not easier and no amount of technology or gimmicky changes such as the use if sin bins will improve standards or respect. 

[Cowshed]

Just now, RoystonFoote'snephew said:

Refereeing is tough and respect for the job is due but that respect has to be earned not commanded. I want to see more commitment to referee training as right now it seems inadequate. In over 60 years of watching professional football I genuinely believe the current crop officiating the Prem and EFL to be the worst I've seen, rubber stamped when I consider Keith Stroud to be one of the best. 

VAR has made refereeing harder not easier and no amount of technology or gimmicky changes such as the use if sin bins will improve standards or respect. 

What training do you think referees do? 

 

[MarcusX]

20 hours ago, Roe said:

Unnecessary imo and will only lead to more controversy (ie one player gets sent to sin bin, while another gets away with it etc) 

They already have good punishments to give out for abuse to referees, they just need to actually use them

Agreed, we have them at our level and it's just another inconsistency that gets frustrating

20 hours ago, Super said:

What's a specific tactical offence? 

No idea, never seen a sin bin for it at our level

[MarcusX]

From my experience, introductions of sin bins haven't really dettered people from dissent - as someone else said there were already punishments available for referees to handle dissent, I still just see that same that some do and some dont.

Also, a sin bin doesn't go through as a fine like a yellow (or red) does. It's about £16 now for a yellow card which is much more of a detterant to most I play with than 10 minutes off the pitch.

And you can be on a yellow and get sin binned, it doesn't lead to a red - and vice versa you can pick up a yellow after returning - so almost gives you an extra offence before a red

[Open End Numb Legs]

Too many bins already. Black for recycling, brown for garden, green for landfill. I can't keep up.

On a more serious note, as with rugby it sometimes just needs to apply the existing rules. Respecting the ref would be a good start. Happy to see decisions questioned but not the screaming and gesturing.

I would say no to sin bins but yes to more yellows for backchat, then red if they carry on.

[grifty]

The thing that confuses me with VAR is a ref gives a decision, VAR gets him to review it on the monitor for whatever reason, he looks at a few replays then walks back onto the pitch does the square motion, blows his whistle and then signals whatever decision he has made.

None of the players or fans are any the wiser. Why doesn’t he call the managers and captains over, explain why he gave original decision and why VAR told him to review and over rule. Advise the managers/captains the decision is final and any back chat from player will result in a booking.

They can’t argue with that surely? Before VAR if a ref would have come to an interview after the game and said “in real time and the angle I was stood at it looked like the defender caught the attackers legs tripping him inside the penalty area resulting a penalty” 

Im pretty sure 98% of people would go OK fair enough!

[downendcity]

16 hours ago, And Its Smith said:

Disagree with that. TMO has never been as bad as VAR 

For many years, I thought that football should look to rugby for the right way to referee games. There seemed much more respect for refs in rugby, players accepted decisions and there was a dialogue between referees and players that reinforced the refs position. Also rugby's tmo system seemed much better than VAR, in the main because it was called for by the ref mainly for contentious try decisions, and on those occasions the fact that the dialogue between the parties was broadcast gave greater credibility to the decision making.

Having watched the recent rugby wc final my view has changed. It seemed to me that the tmo officials were looking for every opportunity to get involved in the game and while I can understand that the physical nature of rugby requires certain rules for player protection, within the same game different interpretations of seemingly identical offences effectively changed the game ( i bow to rugby aficionados if my interpretation is wrong).

The sin bin idea is in principle a good one, giving an extra layer of punishment that actually benefits the offended team. At the moment the classic, "taking one for the team"  yellow card, preventing a 3 on 1 break by a team fighting for a winner, effectively enables the offending team to benefit by being able to regroup defensively. The player yellow carded stays on the pitch.

A sin bin would weaken the offending team for whatever period, perhaps crucially so if the offence was towards the end of a game.

However, at the top level, would this give cause for VAR to be even further involved than it already is?

[Shelton’s Love Gravy]

Personally, I think the introduction of sin bins is a great idea and also, that they should be allowed to poke sin-binned players with sticks.

Sticks

[LondonBristolian]

I don’t fundamentally object to these changes - although I do wonder why a player other than the captain should be allowed to approach the ref in any circumstances at all - but I do think they miss what is actually needed.

I think a big part of the appeal of football, and why it has a wider popularity than, say, rich or cricket, is that it is a simple game that is easy to understand. To my mind, the two major motivations for changes in rules are to make the laws of the game easier to understand and to help games to flow better.

But I feel there is a constant move towards making the simple more confusing. I don’t want to sound like a grumbling middle aged man but I feel that, since I got into the game in 1990, things like offside, handballs and fouls all feel harder to understand and I am sceptical that the game has benefitted from that.

[Markthehorn]

38 minutes ago, downendcity said:

For many years, I thought that football should look to rugby for the right way to referee games. There seemed much more respect for refs in rugby, players accepted decisions and there was a dialogue between referees and players that reinforced the refs position. Also rugby's tmo system seemed much better than VAR, in the main because it was called for by the ref mainly for contentious try decisions, and on those occasions the fact that the dialogue between the parties was broadcast gave greater credibility to the decision making.

Having watched the recent rugby wc final my view has changed. It seemed to me that the tmo officials were looking for every opportunity to get involved in the game and while I can understand that the physical nature of rugby requires certain rules for player protection, within the same game different interpretations of seemingly identical offences effectively changed the game ( i bow to rugby aficionados if my interpretation is wrong).

The sin bin idea is in principle a good one, giving an extra layer of punishment that actually benefits the offended team. At the moment the classic, "taking one for the team"  yellow card, preventing a 3 on 1 break by a team fighting for a winner, effectively enables the offending team to benefit by being able to regroup defensively. The player yellow carded stays on the pitch.

A sin bin would weaken the offending team for whatever period, perhaps crucially so if the offence was towards the end of a game.

However, at the top level, would this give cause for VAR to be even further involved than it already is?

There were many controversial decisions in the rugby over head tackles as they were subjective and often not consistent.

[Open End Numb Legs]

It is correct that most of the rugby reviews are to help protect players from serious injury. They have put a framework in place where head contact is a card of some colour then they look for mitigation why the tackler got it wrong, such as a 3rd player affecting the contact. If they find mitigation then the card may be downgraded.

VAR could do something like that with say, elbows to head but it would probably over complicate things. Rugby has regular stoppages so the TMO seems to fit the sport better.

Every offence is different and it will always be subjective. Communication is the key here, improve that and VAR looks a much better prospect.

[Cowshed]

10 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

I don’t fundamentally object to these changes - although I do wonder why a player other than the captain should be allowed to approach the ref in any circumstances at all - but I do think they miss what is actually needed.

I think a big part of the appeal of football, and why it has a wider popularity than, say, rich or cricket, is that it is a simple game that is easy to understand. To my mind, the two major motivations for changes in rules are to make the laws of the game easier to understand and to help games to flow better.

But I feel there is a constant move towards making the simple more confusing. I don’t want to sound like a grumbling middle aged man but I feel that, since I got into the game in 1990, things like offside, handballs and fouls all feel harder to understand and I am sceptical that the game has benefitted from that.

Rule changes are not necessarily for the game. The offside rule changed repeatedly to create more attacking play and reduce significantly the number of offsides per game. Attacking play creates more incident and goals.  More entertainment for TV viewers.  

[Steve Watts]

3 hours ago, Ghost Rider said:

The tactic that won us the game against a team that had lost 1 in 12 you mean? Imagine getting offended by a win. 

Of course I wasn't offended, ya wally!  T'was just playing with the words.  However I do disagree that that specific tactic won us the game.  The first 30 mins we would receive the ball and almost immediately turn to face our own goal.  We won the game when we started taking it to them.  Started the second half in much the same way as we started the first and we lost a 2 goal lead within 7 mins.  Their equaliser was a fantastic example.  Playing the ball about the defence thereby inviting pressure, Tanner received the ball, looked one way (backwards) and was dispossessed.  When we took the game to Boro again we won it. Anyway, that's for another thread.

I would imagine that the "taking one for the team" offences would be the type of thing that would be covered by a sin bin. Pulling a shirt to stop a breakaway when too many men have been committed forwards for example.

[Tim Monaghan]

15 minutes ago, Steve Watts said:

Of course I wasn't offended, ya wally! 

I'll give myself a whoosh!