Impatience

[Silvio Dante]

Just now, ChippenhamRed said:

Bang on.

The danger is that the fans turn too quickly on Manning through no fault of his own, when really he needs and deserves time to build the team as he wants. There are already signs of that, despite a not-terrible start.

The board are to blame for all of this.

Agree the board are to blame but 4 points from 4 games with a broadly fit squad and performances poor overall (Soton good 45, Boro and QPR good 20, nothing much today) is by any definition not a “not-terrible” start. It’s verging on relegation form and deservedly so.

[spudski]

1 hour ago, Charlie BCFC said:

Whilst today wasn’t a great result some of the stuff I’ve seen online and at the Gate thrown at the manager is incredibly clueless.

 

Manning is very clearly playing a new style of play to Pearson which we have seen since he’s been in charge. We may not be as direct but we look a lot better on the ball and in the Boro game and first halves of Southampton and today we look very threatening going forward. We now need to improve on second halves and putting away more chances.

 

I was always behind Pearson, but for the people who want Manning out now. Why doesn’t he deserve more of a chance than Pearson did in his opening few games?

Clueless...really?

You say...' Manning is clearly playing a new style of play' to Pearson. 

Let's think about that. 

We are told the Club analyse and recruit players to play a certain way. 

They would have done that under NP. 

All the Clubs teams playing a certain way, and players recruited to play that way. 

Any new coach/ manager would be installed to fit in seamlessly and ' tweak' not ' overhaul' the way the club plays. 

Any coach coming in, trying to implement ' their way' with players already here, brought in and coached to play another way...is not a seamless transition. It's an overhaul. 

The Club want Manning to put this present squad in the top 6 this season...that's what's been implied, otherwise he'd have been approached in the summer. 

To try and overhaul this squad, to play differently, mid season and expect top half/6 is completely bonkers. 

[DaveInSA]

I went today, and now realise why I go to about 3-4 games a season. The bad seems to outweigh the good (well at least for me).

The Bad

I thought that performance was timid and naive. Especially in the second half. We are so frightened with the ball. I understand possession based football, but my word do it with some purpose. We kept trying to shift it out wide to Pring, Bell and Knight (who also loked a bit lost and confused and tended to go backward or get in each others way). It was so ponderous - why take one touch when three will do. There was no intent. When we did get in strong positions there was not one city player in the 6 yard box. It was naive because we kept doing the same thing over and over again against two banks of 4/5.

The Good

When we DID shift it with purpose (2-3 times in the second half) we were into them. It looked good. And we threatened.

[bcfc01]

57 minutes ago, Roger Red Hat said:

Until we sign someone who can put away the chances that Tommy can't, and is comfortable playing in the current system, we aren't going to get anywhere different than our current situation. Tommy is clearly badly out of form and I don't think it suits his game playing as we are.

I've lost count of the missed chances, including one on ones, we've had over the last 3 games. Today was the same.

If those chances are not converted it makes it very hard to win a game. If they were taken, we'd be at least 7th now and everyone would be happy.

I'm not sure that the way we are playing doesn't suit Tommy - he's made himself those chances with his movement, just that he hasn't finished them. 

As for today, different day but same story, chances missed and end up chasing the game for the winner and getting caught with a sucker punch at the death. We didn't need to chase the winning goal, a point is better than none. As for the subs....

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Did we hear booing at the end today?

Inevitable after a late loss but trying to think of when we were last booed off at FT.

[One Team]

49 minutes ago, petehinton said:

I think it’s become quite clear that they wanted Manning to be our next head coach when Nige went, thought we could tread water until next summer when Nige was OOC, but got shit scared Manning would either get Oxford up or someone else would poach him. Hence the awful timing and grim rhetoric.  

Good points Pete.

[REDOXO]

2 hours ago, BCFCGav said:

The frustration isn’t REALLY on Manning, it’s on the ownership for forcing us through another transition when we really didn’t need one. Whoever came in was drinking from a poisoned chalice.

Nige had patience in his early tenure as 1) he took over a shit show and 2) he was a well known and respected manager who came in to save us. 
 

Sacking Pearson was dumb and will have long lasting repercussions - as many of us suspected.

Post of the day. Well done! 
 

Manning is not the disease he is the symptom. However him ******* off might might be the antidote!

[ChippenhamRed]

53 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

Agree the board are to blame but 4 points from 4 games with a broadly fit squad and performances poor overall (Soton good 45, Boro and QPR good 20, nothing much today) is by any definition not a “not-terrible” start. It’s verging on relegation form and deservedly so.

Seriously? You think it’s a terrible start “by any definition”?

P4 W1 D1 L2 is very clearly not terrible. It could have been awful lot worse. Particularly when it included games away to Southampton and against an in-form Boro. If the season was four games old we would be lower mid table.

Your definition of “terrible” is utterly ridiculous.

[Bris Red]

58 minutes ago, spudski said:

Clueless...really?

You say...' Manning is clearly playing a new style of play' to Pearson. 

Let's think about that. 

We are told the Club analyse and recruit players to play a certain way. 

They would have done that under NP. 

All the Clubs teams playing a certain way, and players recruited to play that way. 

Any new coach/ manager would be installed to fit in seamlessly and ' tweak' not ' overhaul' the way the club plays. 

Any coach coming in, trying to implement ' their way' with players already here, brought in and coached to play another way...is not a seamless transition. It's an overhaul. 

The Club want Manning to put this present squad in the top 6 this season...that's what's been implied, otherwise he'd have been approached in the summer. 

To try and overhaul this squad, to play differently, mid season and expect top half/6 is completely bonkers. 

This is my gripe and something i would have loved somebody to have asked dumb and dumber (Tinnion and JL) at the Hen and Chicken.

We don't have the players to play the way Manning wants to play, we don't have the quality in midfield to play effective possession based football at this level that will yeild results and enough points to get us into the top six.

Nige was trying to mould us into a counterattacking team and that was how the squad was being built. Plainly obvious that Manning is going to need transfer windows to get in players more suited to playing his way IMO.

Like i said i'd love to ask Tinnion and Lansdown directly how they genuinely think this squad are good enough to not only get into the top 6 but get there playing Pep Man City style possession based total football. It is ******* madness.

[eardun]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Did we hear booing at the end today?

Inevitable after a late loss but trying to think of when we were last booed off at FT.

Boxing Day I would think.

[Mr Popodopolous]

33 minutes ago, ChippenhamRed said:

Seriously? You think it’s a terrible start “by any definition”?

P4 W1 D1 L2 is very clearly not terrible. It could have been awful lot worse. Particularly when it included games away to Southampton and against an in-form Boro. If the season was four games old we would be lower mid table.

Your definition of “terrible” is utterly ridiculous.

PPG we would be 21st, think 4th from bottom Huddersfield have 20 from 19?

Albeit yes would have to check the table back to 4 games in.

Edited December 3, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[spudski]

20 minutes ago, Bris Red said:

This is my gripe and something i would have loved somebody to have asked dumb and dumber (Tinnion and JL) at the Hen and Chicken.

We don't have the players to play the way Manning wants to play, we don't have the quality in midfield to play effective possession based football at this level that will yeild results and enough points to get us into the top six.

Nige was trying to mould us into a counterattacking team and that was how the squad was being built. Plainly obvious that Manning is going to need transfer windows to get in players more suited to playing his way IMO.

Like i said i'd love to ask Tinnion and Lansdown directly how they genuinely think this squad are good enough to not only get into the top 6 but get there playing Pep Man City style possession based total football. It is ******* madness.

Exactly my thoughts too. 

It's going to need different players to suit. 

To try and do it mid season with the present squad and expect an improvement in league position is madness imo. 

Fair play if he does it, but the boards words and Manning's recent words are just that...words...with no context. 

The fan base aren't that stupid...unless you base it purely on the Hen and Chicken lot.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

Clueless...really?

You say...' Manning is clearly playing a new style of play' to Pearson. 

Let's think about that. 

We are told the Club analyse and recruit players to play a certain way. 

They would have done that under NP. 

All the Clubs teams playing a certain way, and players recruited to play that way. 

Any new coach/ manager would be installed to fit in seamlessly and ' tweak' not ' overhaul' the way the club plays. 

Any coach coming in, trying to implement ' their way' with players already here, brought in and coached to play another way...is not a seamless transition. It's an overhaul. 

The Club want Manning to put this present squad in the top 6 this season...that's what's been implied, otherwise he'd have been approached in the summer. 

To try and overhaul this squad, to play differently, mid season and expect top half/6 is completely bonkers. 

This is the bit that gets me Spud.  We were told he was brought in to continue on from what Nige was building.  Whether successful or not Nige was trying to change us from Counterattacking to more controlled.  Some evidence of that at times.  Certainly not all the time.  Recruitment towards that too over a period of time.  You can’t do it all in one window, you sometimes need the odd temporary solution / sticking plaster as you transition.  They thought the plan was right, just didn’t want Nige.  That’s their prerogative.

Liam Manning WAS NOT brought in to rip it up.

If he was then there’d have been no talk of “top end of the table” this season, no “promotion”, no “underperforming for our top ten budget”, “we’ve been recruiting for this under Nige too”.

There’d have been talk of “we need a bit of time to reshape the squad”, “we need to let LM embed his ideas”.

I can imagine some at half-time, itching to come on here and post about how we were 7th or 8th.  Now they are making excuses and throwing accusations out there.

The stupid thing is they don’t need to. 4 games was never gonna be defining one way of the other, but it’s all become a bit desperate!

[Mr Popodopolous]

8 minutes ago, eardun said:

Boxing Day I would think.

Thanks. Nearly a year then.

Ironically there was an opportunity to sack NP then, had the board been that way inclined. I still and a lot wouldn't have supported it but they had a strong opportunity in late 2022, early 2023.

[spudski]

6 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

This is the bit that gets me Spud.  We were told he was brought in to continue on from what Nige was building.  Whether successful or not Nige was trying to change us from Counterattacking to more controlled.  Some evidence of that at times.  Certainly not all the time.  Recruitment towards that too over a period of time.  You can’t do it all in one window, you sometimes need the odd temporary solution / sticking plaster as you transition.  They thought the plan was right, just didn’t want Nige.  That’s their prerogative.

Liam Manning WAS NOT brought in to rip it up.

If he was then there’d have been no talk of “top end of the table” this season, no “promotion”, no “underperforming for our top ten budget”, “we’ve been recruiting for this under Nige too”.

There’d have been talk of “we need a bit of time to reshape the squad”, “we need to let LM embed his ideas”.

I can imagine some at half-time, itching to come on here and post about how we were 7th or 8th.  Now they are making excuses and throwing accusations out there.

The stupid thing is they don’t need to. 4 games was never gonna be defining one way of the other, but it’s all become a bit desperate!

You see it exactly the same as me then Dave. It's a ridiculous scenario and contradicts everything we've been told. 

[ChippenhamRed]

14 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

PPG we would be 21st, think 4th from bottom Huddersfield have 20 from 19?

Albeit yes would have to check the table back to 4 games in.

PPG is a ridiculous metric to use after just 4 games in charge. Take a 4-game snapshot of almost any team in the division and at some point they will have got 4 points or less from a run of games.

The guy has just arrived, give him a chance. Making points-per—game judgements after four matches is just getting silly.

The point is, it’s bang average, but it’s not “terrible”.

[Mr Popodopolous]

8 minutes ago, ChippenhamRed said:

PPG is a ridiculous metric to use after just 4 games in charge. Take a 4-game snapshot of almost any team in the division and at some point they will have got 4 points or less from a run of games.

The guy has just arrived, give him a chance. Making points-per—game judgements after four matches is just getting silly.

The point is, it’s bang average, but it’s not “terrible”.

We were ticking along nicely at 1.4.

Not brilliantly but nicely up to and including Sheffield Wednesday at home.

At my more conservative end I was thinking 60-65, perhaps 63 pts might be a useful target but time will tell.

Sunderland were 18th after 4 with 4 pts.

Edited December 3, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[ChippenhamRed]

7 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

We were ticking along nicely at 1.4.

Not brilliantly but nicely up to and including Sheffield Wednesday at home.

At my more conservative end I was thinking 60-65, perhaps 63 pts might be a useful target but time will tell.

Like I said, PPG is a nonsense based on four games

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 minutes ago, ChippenhamRed said:

Like I said, PPG is a nonsense based on four games

How about 5?

Serious note.

At what point do we measure on metrics. We have to back Manning and give him a chance but I fear we have made a strategic error and could be heading backwards.

Edited December 3, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[ChippenhamRed]

Just now, Mr Popodopolous said:

How about 5?

At what point do we measure on metrics. We have to back Manning and give him a chance but I fear we have made a strategic error and could be heading backwards.

We measure on metrics when we have a decent sample size against which to judge, which isn’t disproportionately weighted by the opposition you have faced and allows for bedding-in time for a new coach implementing new ideas.

10 games absolute minimum I would suggest.

I share your concerns but I’m not going to jump to rash conclusions or snap judgements.

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

How about 5?

Serious note.

At what point do we measure on metrics. We have to back Manning and give him a chance but I fear we have made a strategic error and could be heading backwards.

For me, you start to build trends after 6, but conclusions after many more.  Results and performances / performances and results can take a while to catch up.

[cidercity1987]

A week before Pearson was appointed we couldn't even get out of our own half against Barnsley and had players almost crying in the post match interview.

A week before Pearson left, we were 8th.

[Charlie BCFC]

3 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Performances weren’t getting worse….it was just a period of injuries making things difficult, but performances were still a mix of good, bad, average, with tough away games like Leicester and Leeds in that mix too.

I agree it’s partly to do with injuries which is why I (and many people) thought it was harsh Pearson went. But thought majority of the performances since Plymouth were really poor, only exception possibly being Leeds

[Charlie BCFC]

3 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Did we hear booing at the end today?

Inevitable after a late loss but trying to think of when we were last booed off at FT.

Some boos after Pearson’s last game, Stoke aswell which was a bigger collapse!

[Charlie BCFC]

3 hours ago, The Swan and Cemetery said:

I can see change, but not sure, net, it’s progress yet. Think some of the ball retention is then resulting in us getting through the lines to the final third (ie it’s not just sideways). But we’re also setting up to be less effective on the break. And whichever route, improved decision making and execution in the final third is still needed (for top six). Defensively changes less obvious to me and given some individual errors, would need to see more games to be confident in whether we’re getting stronger or weaker. I was very much in the camp of keeping NP, but the only plausible reason for changing him requires a change in style of play and reasonable to give LM time to achieve that. My biggest concern about today was probably body language, which didn’t seem to have quite the togetherness/energy we’re used to, but get that maybe due to getting used to new systems and being frustrated as a result, aka growing pains. 

I think it’s probably that, the effort was there (always is with this group tbf) but getting into the final 3rd we seemed like we didn’t know what to do next. Do feel like last three games we have moved the ball quicker, I’d even say we did that a lot today but with very little end product

[Peter O Hanraha-hanrahan]

4 hours ago, Charlie BCFC said:

Whilst today wasn’t a great result some of the stuff I’ve seen online and at the Gate thrown at the manager is incredibly clueless.

 

Manning is very clearly playing a new style of play to Pearson which we have seen since he’s been in charge. We may not be as direct but we look a lot better on the ball and in the Boro game and first halves of Southampton and today we look very threatening going forward. We now need to improve on second halves and putting away more chances.

 

I was always behind Pearson, but for the people who want Manning out now. Why doesn’t he deserve more of a chance than Pearson did in his opening few games?

I feel for Manning, this whole situation isn’t his fault. Ridiculous talk from the top about a squad capable of top 6 used as a stick to beat Pearson with hasn’t done him any favours.

I really hope Liam does well because we’ll all be happy but if he doesn’t then I think you’ll find most of the anger is really directed towards the Lansdowns and Tinnion. They created this, the pressure is on them.

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 hours ago, Silvio Dante said:

Agree the board are to blame but 4 points from 4 games with a broadly fit squad and performances poor overall (Soton good 45, Boro and QPR good 20, nothing much today) is by any definition not a “not-terrible” start. It’s verging on relegation form and deservedly so.

Broadly fit squad is questionable tbh.

[AppyDAZE]

[Sir Geoff]

I have nothing against Manning per se but he knows what he has let himself in for.

For the record my ire was towards the Lansdown's when Norwich scored the winner. They got both fingers from me and a eff off Lansdown shout.

[1960maaan]

14 hours ago, Bris Red said:

Nige was trying to mould us into a counterattacking team and that was how the squad was being built.

From memory it was quite the opposite. We were a very counter attacking team when he took over and Pearson said on a few occasions, he wanted to make us more possession based , there had been improvements but it was slow.

14 hours ago, Bris Red said:

We don't have the players to play the way Manning wants to play, we don't have the quality in midfield to play effective possession based football at this level that will yeild results and enough points to get us into the top six.

I don't ever get this argument. Professional footballers at Championship level can all pass, can all control the ball and are fit. Every team to some extent plays passing football. The hard thing is to get them to constantly move and make themselves available. This I thought we saw yesterday TGH & Knight were always on the move , looking for the ball , James dropping in and out wanting the ball from and Vyner and Dickie happy to step out and break lines to look for a pass. 
We do have the players, they can play as Manning wants them to , but over the last couple of games we have not been clinical enough and that has come back to bite us.  Missed chances and defensive mistakes have cost us, not trying to play possession football .