I'll go against the tide

[Lrrr]

48 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Do you think he was the right person to take over at the point he did then?  Because the view from the hierarchy was that the squad that was here was ready for him, everything was set-up to perform rather than under-performing as it was (according to them) under Nige.

But I do know I’ve also been lied to at the same time.  Thankfully I knew that straight away, the hierarchy were both lazy and provocative in the way they sacked Nige / appointed LM.  I think that enables me to stay objective about LM over the next couple of months.

I quite like LM as it happens so I have no problem with LM being Bristol City Head-Coach.

At that moment in time? Probably not, the change of style to something like Manning’s isn’t an overnight thing to become natural, it takes weeks if not a couple of months for movements/patterns etc to become natural. The reality is we had a situation where Nige was never getting a new contract and the club clearly had highlighted Manning as the next one to approach, however we probably got worried that Manning would take Oxford up and we’d lose our chance so wanted to be proactive in getting who we wanted. Realistically i don’t think we can expect too much this season but im quietly optimistic for next season depending on how well we can operate in the 2 windows. 

[Gert Mare]

44 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

At that moment in time? Probably not, the change of style to something like Manning’s isn’t an overnight thing to become natural, it takes weeks if not a couple of months for movements/patterns etc to become natural. The reality is we had a situation where Nige was never getting a new contract and the club clearly had highlighted Manning as the next one to approach, however we probably got worried that Manning would take Oxford up and we’d lose our chance so wanted to be proactive in getting who we wanted. Realistically i don’t think we can expect too much this season but im quietly optimistic for next season depending on how well we can operate in the 2 windows. 

As fans I don’t think we do expect much this season, but both JL and BT have clearly stipulated that the plan is to give us the best possible chance of achieving success ‘THIS SEASON’ otherwise in JL’s words…”Why make a change?”

If the requirement from Liam Manning is to rip up the style of play and let things come together with time then this goes against the explicit expectations from the board for this season.

The squad is good enough (apparently) and should be ‘top end’ of the Championship.

 

Edited December 4, 2023 by Gert Mare

[W-S-M Seagull]

5 minutes ago, Gert Mare said:

As fans I don’t think we do expect much this season, but both JL and BT have clearly stipulated that the plan is to give us the best possible chance of achieving success ‘THIS SEASON’ otherwise in JL’s words…”Why make a change?”

If the requirement from Liam Manning is to rip up the style of play and let things come together with time then this goes against the explicit expectations from the board for this season.

The squad is good enough (apparently) and should be ‘top end’ of the Championship.

 

EXACTLY! 

People seem to be overlooking and forgetting this. 

I also felt as if we had a decent chance of a shot at the play offs this season under Nige and that was my expectation. 

So to rip that up for a 'project' is just ludicrous to me.

[Gert Mare]

3 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

EXACTLY! 

People seem to be overlooking and forgetting this. 

I also felt as if we had a decent chance of a shot at the play offs this season under Nige and that was my expectation. 

So to rip that up for a 'project' is just ludicrous to me.

The narrative set by the board cannot simply be brushed aside. Otherwise why sack NP in the first place? Their words and they should be held accountable if success isn’t achieved THIS season!!!!

Edited December 4, 2023 by Gert Mare

[Harry]

1 hour ago, Sir Geoff said:

isn't that how they scored the winner though ?

Yes. Because the opportunity was there. Do you think a long ball over the top would have worked for us yesterday? If so, I can tell you my reply - it wouldn’t. Norwich sat very deep, basically defended from the halfway line and didn’t press us at all. So hitting long balls over the top of a high defensive line was not only unlikely to produce a result, it was physically impossible. 

[Gert Mare]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Spot on according to the numbers.  They were statistically the worst pressing side we’ve played all season, and in fact that was the worst they’ve pressed all season…by some distance.

I haven’t watched the game, so I can’t comment on whether that was down to us or them, or a bit of both! 

My observation was that their confidence grew after the break and the introduction of Idah was a good move as he injected a bit of pace to put pressure on our back line who were too comfortable up until that point.

[Sir Geoff]

2 minutes ago, Harry said:

Yes. Because the opportunity was there. Do you think a long ball over the top would have worked for us yesterday? If so, I can tell you my reply - it wouldn’t. Norwich sat very deep, basically defended from the halfway line and didn’t press us at all. So hitting long balls over the top of a high defensive line was not only unlikely to produce a result, it was physically impossible. 

I wasn't referring to the game in general. You made the point about James playing a long ball forward and it costing us. What if it had't and we'd scored instead.

My point is you can't criticise James for trying something the opposition did seconds later and scored from.

[Harry]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Do you think he was the right person to take over at the point he did then?  Because the view from the hierarchy was that the squad that was here was ready for him, everything was set-up to perform rather than under-performing as it was (according to them) under Nige.

But I do know I’ve also been lied to at the same time.  Thankfully I knew that straight away, the hierarchy were both lazy and provocative in the way they sacked Nige / appointed LM.  I think that enables me to stay objective about LM over the next couple of months.

I quite like LM as it happens so I have no problem with LM being Bristol City Head-Coach.

Multi-faceted answer. 
Do I think LM was the right man to take over from NP. Yes. I’m happy with him and I think he’s the right type of appointment. As you know, I enjoyed the football he produced at MK and also at Oxford. 
Do I think he is the right ‘fit’ for this squad. No. And again I’ve been quite clear on that from day 1. We don’t have the right type of players for the style he wants. 
So once again it comes back to expectations set by the club hierarchy. 
They’ve identified LM as the successor who will fit the current plan and be able to take this “top end” squad forward. 
It’s baloney. 
This squad is nowhere near ready for “top end”. And I think LM has already found that out  

 

[Harry]

2 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

I wasn't referring to the game in general. You made the point about James playing a long ball forward and it costing us. What if it had't and we'd scored instead.

My point is you can't criticise James for trying something the opposition did seconds later and scored from.

Totally different situations. 
Their defender had a long ball option on, because we were playing quite high, were left 4 on 4 because the 2 CM’s were in the opposition half and the 2 wingers were level with the 2 forwards. We were in a 4-2-4 shape with 30 seconds to go!!! Go figure! 
Their defender had an option that was a good one. James not keeping the ball in midfield and just kicking an aimless ball forward gave them possession from which they scored 7 seconds later. 

[italian dave]

7 minutes ago, Harry said:

Yes. Because the opportunity was there. Do you think a long ball over the top would have worked for us yesterday? If so, I can tell you my reply - it wouldn’t. Norwich sat very deep, basically defended from the halfway line and didn’t press us at all. So hitting long balls over the top of a high defensive line was not only unlikely to produce a result, it was physically impossible. 

Exactly. Whereas (first half) Southampton did the opposite and pushed right up. And we used that space with some long passes over the top and into space. Effectively.

And, on the whole, long passes is what they were. Not long balls, as in long punts in the hope that someone might get onto the end of it or get a knockdown. 

[johnheadbcfc]

1 minute ago, Harry said:

Totally different situations. 
Their defender had a long ball option on, because we were playing quite high, were left 4 on 4 because the 2 CM’s were in the opposition half and the 2 wingers were level with the 2 forwards. We were in a 4-2-4 shape with 30 seconds to go!!! Go figure! 
Their defender had an option that was a good one. James not keeping the ball in midfield and just kicking an aimless ball forward gave them possession from which they scored 7 seconds later. 

This

[Harry]

5 minutes ago, Gert Mare said:

My observation was that their confidence grew after the break and the introduction of Idah was a good move as he injected a bit of pace to put pressure on our back line who were too comfortable up until that point.

Kerching!! 
Exactly mate. 
And do you know what? When the substitution was made (Barnes off Idah on), the Norwich fans were singing “you don’t know what you’re doing” to the manager. 
What do fans know eh!!

Wagner likely took great pleasure is saying a “eff you” under his breath to his supporters. 

[petehinton]

3 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

Quite a funny and almost unique position we are in. We have lost a very popular Manager and got a new man who while saying many of the same things, trying to increase possession (something the last man also wanted) and working with the same squad (that the previous manager also mentioned individual errors ) is getting grief mainly down to how the change was done.  

I've drawn a line under Pearson as we've moved on. Doesn't matter I really liked him, new man deserves to be judged on what he does.

So . 
Yesterday I think we saw real signs of Manning's influence, though it was not universally enjoyed by all.  Moving Norwich around by going side to side isn't seen as joyous free flowing football, but against a side sitting in a little it can be necessary . You could see what was happening as they were pulled around and then space opened for the forward pass. I think we have needed to be able to keep the ball better for years, it's why we haven't been successful. We at time over the years carried a threat, but struggled to see games out because we could never controlled the ball for prolonged periods.

Ignoring the QPR snoozfest as he hadn't had any real time with the team, 
M'boro good win . Farcical OG and an error go them into a game where we should have been out of sight.
Southampton Very Good 45 . Should have been a goal or two up, then it's a very different game. 
Norwich dominated much of the game. Another OG & another mistake . 3rd 1v1 TC has missed in 3 

Massively frustrated yesterday , but the fact we could/should have been talking about at least 7 points is encouraging .If TC finds his form from last year it will make a difference, but I think he needs his mate back to do it. 
I would criticise the subs yesterday , but I don't know the reasons for them and maybe there was something else going on. 

At the moment Manning is suffering from individual errors , which Nige complained about, a lot !
Unfortunately, ATM Vyner has been involved in 3 of the 5 we've conceded , a little out of character as he's been one of the best players for a lot of the last 18 months. We may not be able to cut out mistakes, but we should be able to reduce them , that and become a little more clinical in front of goal and we'll be off. 

I’ve probably be in the minority, but I’ve not been as convinced by Vyner this season as others. Lots of great recovery tackles, largely cleaning up his own poor passes. I’d have a back two of Atkinson Dickie every day of the week, when Atkinson is back fit. 

[Davefevs]

32 minutes ago, Gert Mare said:

My observation was that their confidence grew after the break and the introduction of Idah was a good move as he injected a bit of pace to put pressure on our back line who were too comfortable up until that point.

24 minutes ago, Harry said:

Kerching!! 
Exactly mate. 
And do you know what? When the substitution was made (Barnes off Idah on), the Norwich fans were singing “you don’t know what you’re doing” to the manager. 
What do fans know eh!!

Wagner likely took great pleasure is saying a “eff you” under his breath to his supporters. 

Norwich pressing….y-axis is passes they allowed City to have:

There best pressing (data wise) was in that 60-75 min period.

Thanks, I’ll look out for that when I watch the game.

[Harry]

14 minutes ago, petehinton said:

I’ve probably be in the minority, but I’ve not been as convinced by Vyner this season as others. Lots of great recovery tackles, largely cleaning up his own poor passes. I’d have a back two of Atkinson Dickie every day of the week, when Atkinson is back fit. 

Yep. The form of Vyner is nothing to do with the new manager. Vyner hasn’t been anywhere near as good this season as he was last season. 
Same with Pring. Same with Weimann. Same with Conway. Same with Bell. Same with nearly all of them. 
They’ve all be playing rather ‘averagely’ under Pearson and are now playing rather ‘averagely’ under Manning. 
 

Re Vyner specifically though - last ditch tackles only get you so far. At some point, the luck runs out. 
Funny enough, his form seems to have dropped after we gave him a nice new contract to stop him leaving. Sorry - cynical old me there

[Sleepy1968]

Just to say, some great debate and insight in this thread.

Thanks all.

@Harry do you have any confidence that JL-BT-GM-SL will back LM sufficiently when he tells them he's gonna need to recruit quite a few players (I've no idea how many - 5 or 6?)  to get us playing his brand of football effectively?

Especially when their rhetoric was essentially 'that we had the players here, just not the right manager' a few weeks back.

No slight on LM that he is finding out the shortcomings of his new team on the fly, but you'd have hoped BT would have understood this when we were considering LMs appointment.

[petehinton]

Just now, Harry said:

Yep. The form of Vyner is nothing to do with the new manager. Vyner hasn’t been anywhere near as good this season as he was last season. 
Same with Pring. Same with Weimann. Same with Conway. Same with Bell. Same with nearly all of them. 
They’ve all be playing rather ‘averagely’ under Pearson and are now playing rather ‘averagely’ under Manning. 
 

Re Vyner specifically though - last ditch tackles only get you so far. At some point, the luck runs out. 
Funny enough, his form seems to have dropped after we gave him a nice new contract to stop him leaving. Sorry - cynical old me there

Too many 6.5s for sure, yet the constant 7s have been Dickie, Sykes and Knight for me. The latter, concerningly for me, yesterday second half we seemed to just think “give it to him and hope he does something” akin to what we used to do with Eliasson. That’s not really his game. 
 

I’m largely in agreement with your views and thoughts on games under LM so far. Having been to all of them, the differences are quite clear now, or at least the ideas on what we want to do are clear, But it does scream of another transition / mini rebuild type job which tbh I’m getting a bit bored of. My real concerns are how totally out of ideas we’ve looked in every second half under him so far, after really positive first halves. 
 

Same issues he has, are the same issues Pearson has. But not to worry, we are a top 6 squad and we have a premier league fan base so it’s OK….

If this roll of the dice doesn’t work, and I think Manning will be a real successful coach whether that’s here or somewhere else, I really don’t know what we turn to next. I’m almost at a point of writing this season off, likely getting Weimann and Williams off the wage bill and seeing what next season brings. ******* depression considering this was the real season for us to kick on with, but that’s the bed that the board have made for themselves. 

[petehinton]

6 minutes ago, Sleepy1968 said:

Just to say, some great debate and insight in this thread.

Thanks all.

@Harry do you have any confidence that JL-BT-GM-SL will back LM sufficiently when he tells them he's gonna need to recruit quite a few players (I've no idea how many - 5 or 6?)  to get us playing his brand of football effectively?

Especially when their rhetoric was essentially 'that we had the players here, just not the right manager' a few weeks back.

No slight on LM that he is finding out the shortcomings of his new team on the fly, but you'd have hoped BT would have understood this when we were considering LMs appointment.

To chip in (sorry), I know Tinns saw Oxford play at least two more times on top of the games we played against them, so you’d certainly hope that he understands we don’t have the clientele to play the way LM does. So we need to make signings and change the squad. But then we’ve come out and said our wage bill is at the absolute limit, so there was no money for Pearson. Corner, and backed. 

[TDarwall]

5 minutes ago, petehinton said:

 

If this roll of the dice doesn’t work, and I think Manning will be a real successful coach whether that’s here or somewhere else, I really don’t know what we turn to next. 

Ah, I think I can answer that. Because we have no long term strategy, after " progressive" type we invariably go for "gnarly old timer".  If its any consolation, that often does the trick (see Gary Johnson after Tinnion & Cotts after SOD)

[1960maaan]

25 minutes ago, petehinton said:

I’ve probably be in the minority, but I’ve not been as convinced by Vyner this season as others. Lots of great recovery tackles, largely cleaning up his own poor passes. I’d have a back two of Atkinson Dickie every day of the week, when Atkinson is back fit. 

The main problem I see with an Atkinson / Dickie partnership is the lack of pace. Vyner does add that a bit.
I agree with you @Harry about the almost team wide drop off in form, though I think Vyner was good earlier in the season when we were juggling left side CB's . The rest Weimann , Bell , Conway and even Pring who I'm a big fan of, have dropped off massively. None of that drop off in form is down to Manning, but it's his job to coax better out of them. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

TV money rises by several million next year and of course there are players out of contract , any savings there can go into the pot for strengthening.

For this season though..budget is all maxed out isn't it, save for perhaps making TGH permanent. As it stands, sell on fees etc could change the dial.

This talk of January activity as it stands this second should be for the birds in some ways 

Edited December 4, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[lenred]

17 minutes ago, Harry said:

Funny enough, his form seems to have dropped after we gave him a nice new contract to stop him leaving. Sorry - cynical old me there

I said exactly the same yesterday.   It’s been very noticeable.   Hopefully just an unhappy circumstance! 

[Silvio Dante]

Just to return to the subject of why we appear to be starting better and getting worse as games go on (and playing into my theory that teams figure us out as the reason for that) interesting quote from Wagner post match yesterday. He played McLean, a midfielder, at the back over an established centre half in Baath. Partly he acknowledged that was a height thing but this is the key quote - he anticipated us to be very energetic and high in our press - which we’re not under Liam and is a hangover from Nige.

It does speak again to the game management piece - we weren’t the team they expected but once they realised what we were, they made our life more difficult 

[Davefevs]

7 minutes ago, TDarwall said:

Ah, I think I can answer that. Because we have no long term strategy, after " progressive" type we invariably go for "gnarly old timer".  If its any consolation, that often does the trick (see Gary Johnson after Tinnion & Cotts after SOD)

They were asked what is the medium term plan at the Fans Forum.  My notes below

They didn’t answer it!

They did reflect that their previous plan didn’t work, and it took (until this summer) to get players off their contracts.

Their plan seemed to be about player physical attributes, and then a combo of coach, fitness and luck playing its part.

Thats not a plan / strategy, is it?  No financial input in there.  The CEO away there.  I expected him to answer it.

[Silvio Dante]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

They were asked what is the medium term plan at the Fans Forum.  My notes below

 

Bloody hell Dave are you a doctor??

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

Bloody hell Dave are you a doctor??

I’m patient Silvio!

[bcfc01]

24 minutes ago, petehinton said:

To chip in (sorry), I know Tinns saw Oxford play at least two more times on top of the games we played against them, so you’d certainly hope that he understands we don’t have the clientele to play the way LM does. So we need to make signings and change the squad. But then we’ve come out and said our wage bill is at the absolute limit, so there was no money for Pearson. Corner, and backed. 

Well, we all know that signings will be "brought forward" from the summer as the get out clause for them and to enable LM to play as he wants to play.

I think we can expect a couple of signings in January and another couple pre-season with a few leaving.

[Mr Popodopolous]

56 minutes ago, bcfc01 said:

Well, we all know that signings will be "brought forward" from the summer as the get out clause for them and to enable LM to play as he wants to play.

I think we can expect a couple of signings in January and another couple pre-season with a few leaving.

Obviously aimed at the hierarchy not yourself but they made their bed.

Perhaps our expectations should rise a bit if money is spent in January.

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, TDarwall said:

Ah, I think I can answer that. Because we have no long term strategy, after " progressive" type we invariably go for "gnarly old timer".  If its any consolation, that often does the trick (see Gary Johnson after Tinnion & Cotts after SOD)

I think that's a bit reductionist however definitely we are lacking in a  long term strategy and consistency of plan.

[DaveInSA]

I'm not 100% sure, but I think we've been gaslit  again.

@Harry hits the nail on the head, like he did from the minute Manning was appointed (nostra"Harry"mus). We don't have the players to move the ball quickly with purpose and intent. I saw it with my own eyes yesterday. And at the same time you could see what we were trying to do, even in the second half, which I thought was not boring. It was just all too slow...and a couple of players didn't step up, and deliver the solutions on the pitch, which is what he also wants.

We don't have these players. Some of the youngsters might become these players. 

FWIW, Weimann, Williams, James and King I think are all OOC this coming summer? I doubt any of them will be renewed - maybe James but his legs will go soon. Incoming the new creative midfielder(s).