Still early days

[LondonBristolian]

It is still early days and Manning would be far from the first Bristol City manager to start badly but gradually turn things round - Gary Johnson and Nigel Pearson both come to mind. However both joined when the club were at a particular low point so the run of defeats was much easier to understand.

Similarly there is a perfectly valid argument that, when a new manager comes in and tries to change things, it will inevitably lead to a spell where the club will struggle as players learn. But there has to be a valid question of exactly why so much is being changed in a team that were - broadly speaking - winning the games they were expected to win and losing the games they were expected to lose.

I do think luck is a factor - I'm not saying we've been brilliant but we could very easily have drawn at Southampton and won against Norwich and, had we done that, we'd have gone into the Huddersfield and Blackburn games with a lot more confidence and those results might have looked different too. But ultimately luck matters, as do results, and we've now got the psychological aspect of a winless run which has to start to affect the players. And - as others have said - we've gone from solid and hard to beat to conceding soft goals.

Maybe we can turn it round over time but I think what we're seeing at the moment is a direct consequence of replacing an experienced manager who knew how to get results out of the team with a promising but inexperienced manager who has tried to change too much too quickly without spending enough time analysing why Pearson had set us up a particular way and what was working about that. And we've now slipped into the kind of run which saps morale and which you arguably need knowledge and experience to quickly turn around.

I feel for Manning in that I think he may well be the right manager in the wrong circumstances and it may well be that a little bit more luck in a couple of those early games would have set his time in charge up the right way so things looked totally different. But - even if he could be doing well in slightly different circumstances - these are the circumstances he has and he is under increasing pressure to show that he can respond to them. 

[bexhill reds]

2 hours ago, red panda said:

he is apparently “broken”, but would you want him to be upbeat after a defeat or in denial that some things weren’t going well?

I commented on this last night, it was not so much what he said but the body language and the conviction with which it was delivered, he’s not the best media performer granted, but I felt it was almost that he did not believe what he was actually saying.

He had a good starting point in a team that was relatively solid, so surely the starting point was to add to to what was already there rather than rip it all up and start to reprogram the players mid season in a competitive league, he has to accept responsibility for that rather than say the players are overloaded, there was no need to do it.

As fans we’ve got little choice other than to give him time now, agreed we are playing it fits and starts but that is offset by our ability to concede soft goals which was something that we’d seemed to have sorted prior to the change.

Jan will be very important as will our league position at the time, if you are a League 1 starlet would you be interested in a comfortable mid-table with play-off potential or a team skirting the relegation places where there is a risk of quickly returning from whence you came.

I genuinely feel for the bloke, when you sign on the dotted line you are ultimately thinking of being successful, we appear to be some way from that, and if (appreciate again this is speculation) he’s questioning himself at this early stage I hope he’s got a support network he can reach out to.

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, Charlie BCFC said:

Bang on, despite the results not being ideal. Performances for the most part have been good and you can see what he’s trying to implement, some people need to realise you can be angry at the Pearson sacking and give Manning time to prove himself

No, they haven’t imho.

They have been mixed.

FWIW I see what he is trying to implement too, but I also see what he is breaking in the process.

1 hour ago, Packman said:

I have to disagree with this, think we've had a few decent spells but on the whole performances haven't been good. 

The main thing we had going for us was we were really solid and didn't concede many, can't say that now.

Indeed.

[KingHillRed]

6 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

No, they haven’t imho.

They have been mixed.

FWIW I see what he is trying to implement too, but I also see what he is breaking in the process.

Indeed.

I'm confused - wouldn't you expect an element of 'breaking' old systems in favour of new ones if trying to adapt a new style

I think everyone thinks we were Real Madrid before Nige left - we weren't and performances were stale for a while

New ideas, new tactics, new learning approach - it is normal to take time isn't it?

[mozo]

30 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

I don't know what team you've been watching but it certainly hasn't been us. 

Performances for the most part have not been good! 

Answer me this, do you think Bristol City is a charity? Why should people like me have to accept going backwards whilst we give Manning a chance to prove himself? This talk really infuriates me. It's that sort of attitude that has forever held this club back. 

He was expected to come in and improve our position and our results instantly (which were ok) and after 6 games he's failed to do that. At times we have looked a shambles. 

I don't feel sorry for him. He signed up to this high pressure job knowing that the fans would at the very least demand that our position and results remained the same. He's made some decisions that make it hard to have sympathy for him. 

Hang on, we were clearly the better team against Norwich and Huddersfield. 

Manning's City has had more shots on target than any of the opponents with the exception of Southampton.

In most of those games we had more possession and more shots.

In every game except Southampton, we had at least a half where we were the better team.  

I'm not saying he's amazing, and I'm not happy with the points tally, but you can't say we've been playing shit every week.

[bexhill reds]

1 minute ago, KingHillRed said:

I'm confused - wouldn't you expect an element of 'breaking' old systems in favour of new ones if trying to adapt a new style

I think everyone thinks we were Real Madrid before Nige left - we weren't and performances were stale for a while

New ideas, new tactics, new learning approach - it is normal to take time isn't it?

You tweak and not make wholesale changes, and slowly introduce your ideas, to don't turn it upside down not mid-season. NP's teams were solid if not spectacular, he was building in spite of having players sold around him, but we were by and large difficult to beat. 

The concern is that we could easily be pulled into the lower end of the table, playing well for 30 mins here and there won't cut it. God knows what the game plan was last night and then with the substitutions when it looked like we were coming back into the game, there is a theme with odd and counter-productive substitutions right now.

[Major Isewater]

32 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

do think luck is a factor

As Napoleon said ‘ give me lucky Generals’ ( but in French of course). 
I am already bored with LM’s shining insights into coaching after each disappointing game. 

 I want to see results and improvements on the pitch. I fear that our new coach is out of his depth and floundering. 
I lay the blame squarely at the clowns in charge. 
I also hope that this post becomes a source of embarrassment for me in a very short time. 

[W-S-M Seagull]

4 minutes ago, KingHillRed said:

I'm confused - wouldn't you expect an element of 'breaking' old systems in favour of new ones if trying to adapt a new style

I think everyone thinks we were Real Madrid before Nige left - we weren't and performances were stale for a while

New ideas, new tactics, new learning approach - it is normal to take time isn't it?

I'm confused why we appointed a manager that didn't fit the style that we publicly stated we wanted. I'm even more confused that Manning has changed our style mid season. There appears to be a lack of adaptability by him. 

No one thought we were Real. We all knew what we was good at and what we wasn't good at. What's confusing is that we've ripped up what we were good at to follow some belief that by doing so we'll be better for it in the future. However by doing this, it has exposed what we are not good at. 

Unfortunately for Manning, due to the circumstances of his appointment, the majority of our fan base are not willing to be patient for Manning to implement his style because we wasn't broken before. Things just needed tweaking. 

[KingHillRed]

That isn't how things work in reality though is it

You are employed to implement your style of play on the playing squad as quickly as possible, accepting the teething issues that come with it

"Slowly" implement - come on, this is the championship, nothing is done slowly

These issues are inevitable but you need time to transition away from old style and into new - that is all this is

[W-S-M Seagull]

8 minutes ago, mozo said:

Hang on, we were clearly the better team against Norwich and Huddersfield. 

Manning's City has had more shots on target than any of the opponents with the exception of Southampton.

In most of those games we had more possession and more shots.

In every game except Southampton, we had at least a half where we were the better team.  

I'm not saying he's amazing, and I'm not happy with the points tally, but you can't say we've been playing shit every week.

When you consider the teams we were playing, that's not all that impressive. 

I was bored shitless watching us vs Norwich. They were there for the taking and we lost. We had a few ok chances, nothing special or clear cut. I felt Norwich had the better chances. 

Huddersfield are one of the worst teams in the league. They lost 3-1 to PNE last night. Huddersfield deploy the low block and allow teams to dominate possession so I'm not going to sit here and be impressed by us controlling a game when that's what the opposition want. Huddersfield should have had a penalty and they also had a very good chance when they forced Max into a mistake. 

More shots mean absolutely nothing to me when they are poor shots and poor chances. A Conway shot against Norwich was a low probability chance and he hit it straight at the keeper for example. 

Against Vs Huddersfield, bar the goal, there wasn't any real quality chances. 

I think by and large we've played shit. There has been some good little spells but in my opinion we've been shit. You think different and that's OK. We're both entitled to our opinions. 

[CodeRed]

38 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 

FWIW I see what he is trying to implement too, but I also see what he is breaking in the process.

 

This. 100%.

Edited December 13, 2023 by CodeRed

[W-S-M Seagull]

8 minutes ago, KingHillRed said:

That isn't how things work in reality though is it

You are employed to implement your style of play on the playing squad as quickly as possible, accepting the teething issues that come with it

"Slowly" implement - come on, this is the championship, nothing is done slowly

These issues are inevitable but you need time to transition away from old style and into new - that is all this is

We don't have the players to play this new style so it's baffling we've employed a manager that doesn't play the style we wanted and it's equally baffling that Manning is trying to implement his style on players that are clearly not suited to it. 

You don't get time in the Championship. We are potentially a few games away from being in the drop zone. 

If you could guarantee me that implementing his style will be beneficial in the long term and get us better results and performances then I'd be fully on board but you can't do that. It's blind faith. 

[Boston Red]

1 hour ago, Monkeh said:

The openly critical comment on commentary from 2 senior players tells us the dressing room aren't backing him 

Sorry, missed this, what was said?

[Edgy Red]

3 hours ago, red panda said:

I don’t want to pretend everything is great, and I really feel for those that travelled such a long way yesterday.  But it is really as bad as many make out?

We’ve had some poor results, but LM is trying to change some things and all of our defeats under him have been by a single goal to reasonably or very decent sides. The Sky report on last night said City “can take heart from a performance that so nearly produced a fightback”, we “created the best chances” early on, we were “the much better side” for the last 30 mins, and we “could easily have come away with a share of the spoils”.

And reading the “Gaffer speaks” thread I think there are many people on here waiting to put a negative spin on anything he says or does:

• he is apparently “broken”, but would you want him to be upbeat after a defeat or in denial that some things weren’t going well?
• he “got it wrong” as he speculated that some players might be overloaded mentally, but isn’t a bit of self reflection like this far better than pretending that everything you’ve done is great?
• he has been criticised for not playing the likes of Yeboah, but when he does this he is wrong for bringing off (the perhaps tiring) Sykes or one poster suggested he was just responding to what he read on here!
• he’s described as “personality vacuum” and similar, but we’ve employed him to coach a football team, not as an entertainer
• there are also comparisons with LJ which I think are wide of the mark.  LJ really was an example of a “not my fault, I’m doing everything right” manager, whereas LM already comes across as much more honest, open and likely to respond in a good way.

Other posters have commented on how enthusiastic the players appear under his management.

At the end of the day, it might not work out.  But I really hope we can give him a fair chance.
 

This is a very sensible post... i won't read any replies as i fear it won't be well received

[bexhill reds]

8 minutes ago, KingHillRed said:

That isn't how things work in reality though is it

You are employed to implement your style of play on the playing squad as quickly as possible, accepting the teething issues that come with it

"Slowly" implement - come on, this is the championship, nothing is done slowly

These issues are inevitable but you need time to transition away from old style and into new - that is all this is

No you are not, you are employed to get results…

Nothing needed a major overhaul, that could have been done when the season was all but over, namely mid table obscurity or preseason.

Unless he can make this work effectively there is a real possibility of being pulled into the mire. Let’s see where we are come kick off against Millwall.

[Bobtherobin]

The performance was awful yesterday. Watching us tapping it around with no intent or aggression for 60 mins was one of the most frustrating hours Ive sepent watching us since the dark end days of LJ.  You can try and pretend otherwise if you want, but the truth will out soon enough. We are witnessing the most damaging act self-inflicted harm since....I wont mention politics or the B word. Relegation is definitely a concern now. 

[Cov 77]

2 hours ago, spudski said:

Possession I'm seeing...

Moving the ball quicker, with fewer touches...I'm seeing. 

Better angles and movement to receive...I'm seeing. 

' Front foot, attacking, entertaining football'...I'm not. 

Results terrible.

Now 5 points off a relegation spot.

And 23 points away from an automatic promotion spot. Almost double points to what we have. 

Needs to turn this round fast imo.

 

 

 

7 points actually off relegation spot and 7 points off the play offs ( our more realistic target we are told ) 

[Cov 77]

1 hour ago, Monkeh said:

The openly critical comment on commentary from 2 senior players tells us the dressing room aren't backing him 

What was actually said ? 

[Natchfever]

47 minutes ago, KingHillRed said:

I'm confused - wouldn't you expect an element of 'breaking' old systems in favour of new ones if trying to adapt a new style

I think everyone thinks we were Real Madrid before Nige left - we weren't and performances were stale for a while

New ideas, new tactics, new learning approach - it is normal to take time isn't it?

Must do better BS this is tiresome. Presume youll be buying up empty seats in the Lansdown for saturday and chant pro Lansdown songs throughout.

Hijacking a fans forum really ?

[Davefevs]

38 minutes ago, KingHillRed said:

I'm confused - wouldn't you expect an element of 'breaking' old systems in favour of new ones if trying to adapt a new style

I think everyone thinks we were Real Madrid before Nige left - we weren't and performances were stale for a while

New ideas, new tactics, new learning approach - it is normal to take time isn't it?

You undermine any points you try to make when you go down the route of poo-poo’ing by using the “Nige messiah” route.  Firstly, no they don’t, most people think he was doing a decent job based on what he took over and we were about to embark on the next phase.

What you will see is people defending Nige against posters who ignore context.

If our defence was our strongest part of the team, would you instantly change the way we defend, by playing your CMs higher and leaving gaps between midfield and defence.  Now, if that led to lots of joined up interplay between midfield and attack because they were closer together AND / OR a more efficient press because it condensed the opposition defence and midfield, I could see the risk / reward, and what was attempted to become embedded.

17 minutes ago, KingHillRed said:

That isn't how things work in reality though is it

You are employed to implement your style of play on the playing squad as quickly as possible, accepting the teething issues that come with it

"Slowly" implement - come on, this is the championship, nothing is done slowly

These issues are inevitable but you need time to transition away from old style and into new - that is all this is

So, you are saying he’s a fixed ideas coach then, a single way of playing? That’s not what he told us, nor what he’s said prior to coming here.  It’s not what we’ve seen either.

If teething issues continue, and continue to be as fundamental as they appear after 6 games, then we are gonna be miles away from what the hierarchy declared…and a still a long way from what sensible fans realised.  You’re making a big assumption they are teething problems.

Transition isn’t always achieved through having time / more time.  Transition can be achieved in many different ways.

Your view of LM and his capability is a very worrying viewpoint!

[Nogbad the Bad]

2 hours ago, Robbored said:

We’ve been here before with both Johnson’s - lengthy runs without a win but SL stuck with both of them and both eventually overstayed their welcome.

Will the same happen with Manning?…………

GJ didn't outstay his welcome afaic, several non trying mutinous players should have been booted out of the club rather than him leaving.

As for LJ, he should never have been welcomed in the first place.

[TonyTonyTony]

Early days it may well be, but our next league games are tough, very tough.

Sunderland (H), Hull (H), Watford (A), Brum (A), Millwall (H), Preston (A), Watford (H), Cov (A)

That's Dec/Jan. In Feb we play Leeds, Boro and Southampton (and SW/QPR)

We need results, basically.

[Wade Wilson]

“Still early days”- Tell that to QPR
 

Cifuentes in 6 games at QPR: 11 points. +5 goal difference.

Manning in 6 games with us: 5 points. -2 goal difference. 
 

We are ****** 

[Sir Geoff]

54 minutes ago, mozo said:

Hang on, we were clearly the better team against Norwich and Huddersfield. 

Manning's City has had more shots on target than any of the opponents with the exception of Southampton.

In most of those games we had more possession and more shots.

In every game except Southampton, we had at least a half where we were the better team.  

I'm not saying he's amazing, and I'm not happy with the points tally, but you can't say we've been playing shit every week.

Huddersfield. We were better for 20 minutes. After that it was an even contest between 2 poor sides.

Which half were better than QPR ? Which half were we better against Blackburn ? Which half were we better than Middlesborough ?

[GrahamC]

42 minutes ago, KingHillRed said:

That isn't how things work in reality though is it

You are employed to implement your style of play on the playing squad as quickly as possible, accepting the teething issues that come with it

"Slowly" implement - come on, this is the championship, nothing is done slowly

These issues are inevitable but you need time to transition away from old style and into new - that is all this is

Cifuentes.

[BigTone]

2 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Cifuentes.

Same to you Sir

[bexhill reds]

15 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Your view of LM and his capability is a very worrying viewpoint!

Brand new account, we are arguing with either a Bristol Sport employee or a troll.

Block and not worth the time and effort of a reasoned or sensible argument, you can’t debate an agenda. There’s a few accounts like this on the forum at present. All with much the same type of post.

 

[Sir Geoff]

20 minutes ago, Natchfever said:

Must do better BS this is tiresome. Presume youll be buying up empty seats in the Lansdown for saturday and chant pro Lansdown songs throughout.

Hijacking a fans forum really ?

Funny how several have appeared in the last 24 hours.

[Mr Popodopolous]

I suppose when you are Cifuentes and you have a squad that is underperforming there is a chance of a bounce and a bit of a surge.

When you inherit a position that doesn't need fixing albeit less injuries would be really welcome but no blame there, well considering the injuries there wasn't really a huge room for improvement with the players available and indeed given those consistently unavailable.

[Sheltons Army]

2 hours ago, LondonBristolian said:

It is still early days and Manning would be far from the first Bristol City manager to start badly but gradually turn things round - Gary Johnson and Nigel Pearson both come to mind. However both joined when the club were at a particular low point so the run of defeats was much easier to understand.

Similarly there is a perfectly valid argument that, when a new manager comes in and tries to change things, it will inevitably lead to a spell where the club will struggle as players learn. But there has to be a valid question of exactly why so much is being changed in a team that were - broadly speaking - winning the games they were expected to win and losing the games they were expected to lose.

I do think luck is a factor - I'm not saying we've been brilliant but we could very easily have drawn at Southampton and won against Norwich and, had we done that, we'd have gone into the Huddersfield and Blackburn games with a lot more confidence and those results might have looked different too. But ultimately luck matters, as do results, and we've now got the psychological aspect of a winless run which has to start to affect the players. And - as others have said - we've gone from solid and hard to beat to conceding soft goals.

Maybe we can turn it round over time but I think what we're seeing at the moment is a direct consequence of replacing an experienced manager who knew how to get results out of the team with a promising but inexperienced manager who has tried to change too much too quickly without spending enough time analysing why Pearson had set us up a particular way and what was working about that. And we've now slipped into the kind of run which saps morale and which you arguably need knowledge and experience to quickly turn around.

I feel for Manning in that I think he may well be the right manager in the wrong circumstances and it may well be that a little bit more luck in a couple of those early games would have set his time in charge up the right way so things looked totally different. But - even if he could be doing well in slightly different circumstances - these are the circumstances he has and he is under increasing pressure to show that he can respond to them. 

Excellent post

The Highlighted para is such a good point and was discussed excellently on the FBC Podcast this morning @headhunter