Still early days

[red panda]

I don’t want to pretend everything is great, and I really feel for those that travelled such a long way yesterday.  But it is really as bad as many make out?

We’ve had some poor results, but LM is trying to change some things and all of our defeats under him have been by a single goal to reasonably or very decent sides. The Sky report on last night said City “can take heart from a performance that so nearly produced a fightback”, we “created the best chances” early on, we were “the much better side” for the last 30 mins, and we “could easily have come away with a share of the spoils”.

And reading the “Gaffer speaks” thread I think there are many people on here waiting to put a negative spin on anything he says or does:

• he is apparently “broken”, but would you want him to be upbeat after a defeat or in denial that some things weren’t going well?
• he “got it wrong” as he speculated that some players might be overloaded mentally, but isn’t a bit of self reflection like this far better than pretending that everything you’ve done is great?
• he has been criticised for not playing the likes of Yeboah, but when he does this he is wrong for bringing off (the perhaps tiring) Sykes or one poster suggested he was just responding to what he read on here!
• he’s described as “personality vacuum” and similar, but we’ve employed him to coach a football team, not as an entertainer
• there are also comparisons with LJ which I think are wide of the mark.  LJ really was an example of a “not my fault, I’m doing everything right” manager, whereas LM already comes across as much more honest, open and likely to respond in a good way.

Other posters have commented on how enthusiastic the players appear under his management.

At the end of the day, it might not work out.  But I really hope we can give him a fair chance.
 

[Barrs Court Red]

It’s not early days for the ones people are aiming their ire at though is it, it’s over 20 years…

[Charlie BCFC]

1 minute ago, red panda said:

I don’t want to pretend everything is great, and I really feel for those that travelled such a long way yesterday.  But it is really as bad as many make out?

We’ve had some poor results, but LM is trying to change some things and all of our defeats under him have been by a single goal to reasonably or very decent sides. The Sky report on last night said City “can take heart from a performance that so nearly produced a fightback”, we “created the best chances” early on, we were “the much better side” for the last 30 mins, and we “could easily have come away with a share of the spoils”.

And reading the “Gaffer speaks” thread I think there are many people on here waiting to put a negative spin on anything he says or does:

• he is apparently “broken”, but would you want him to be upbeat after a defeat or in denial that some things weren’t going well?
• he “got it wrong” as he speculated that some players might be overloaded mentally, but isn’t a bit of self reflection like this far better than pretending that everything you’ve done is great?
• he has been criticised for not playing the likes of Yeboah, but when he does this he is wrong for bringing off (the perhaps tiring) Sykes or one poster suggested he was just responding to what he read on here!
• he’s described as “personality vacuum” and similar, but we’ve employed him to coach a football team, not as an entertainer
• there are also comparisons with LJ which I think are wide of the mark.  LJ really was an example of a “not my fault, I’m doing everything right” manager, whereas LM already comes across as much more honest, open and likely to respond in a good way.

Other posters have commented on how enthusiastic the players appear under his management.

At the end of the day, it might not work out.  But I really hope we can give him a fair chance.
 

Bang on, despite the results not being ideal. Performances for the most part have been good and you can see what he’s trying to implement, some people need to realise you can be angry at the Pearson sacking and give Manning time to prove himself

[Natchfever]

6 minutes ago, red panda said:

I don’t want to pretend everything is great, and I really feel for those that travelled such a long way yesterday.  But it is really as bad as many make out?

We’ve had some poor results, but LM is trying to change some things and all of our defeats under him have been by a single goal to reasonably or very decent sides. The Sky report on last night said City “can take heart from a performance that so nearly produced a fightback”, we “created the best chances” early on, we were “the much better side” for the last 30 mins, and we “could easily have come away with a share of the spoils”.

And reading the “Gaffer speaks” thread I think there are many people on here waiting to put a negative spin on anything he says or does:

• he is apparently “broken”, but would you want him to be upbeat after a defeat or in denial that some things weren’t going well?
• he “got it wrong” as he speculated that some players might be overloaded mentally, but isn’t a bit of self reflection like this far better than pretending that everything you’ve done is great?
• he has been criticised for not playing the likes of Yeboah, but when he does this he is wrong for bringing off (the perhaps tiring) Sykes or one poster suggested he was just responding to what he read on here!
• he’s described as “personality vacuum” and similar, but we’ve employed him to coach a football team, not as an entertainer
• there are also comparisons with LJ which I think are wide of the mark.  LJ really was an example of a “not my fault, I’m doing everything right” manager, whereas LM already comes across as much more honest, open and likely to respond in a good way.

Other posters have commented on how enthusiastic the players appear under his management.

At the end of the day, it might not work out.  But I really hope we can give him a fair chance.
 

Lansdown will give him as long as he wants. What fans think is irrelevant to the ownership.

Players under contract rarely say their new gaffer is a *** do they.

[exAtyeoMax]

9 minutes ago, red panda said:

I don’t want to pretend everything is great, and I really feel for those that travelled such a long way yesterday.  But it is really as bad as many make out?

We’ve had some poor results, but LM is trying to change some things and all of our defeats under him have been by a single goal to reasonably or very decent sides. The Sky report on last night said City “can take heart from a performance that so nearly produced a fightback”, we “created the best chances” early on, we were “the much better side” for the last 30 mins, and we “could easily have come away with a share of the spoils”.

And reading the “Gaffer speaks” thread I think there are many people on here waiting to put a negative spin on anything he says or does:

• he is apparently “broken”, but would you want him to be upbeat after a defeat or in denial that some things weren’t going well?
• he “got it wrong” as he speculated that some players might be overloaded mentally, but isn’t a bit of self reflection like this far better than pretending that everything you’ve done is great?
• he has been criticised for not playing the likes of Yeboah, but when he does this he is wrong for bringing off (the perhaps tiring) Sykes or one poster suggested he was just responding to what he read on here!
• he’s described as “personality vacuum” and similar, but we’ve employed him to coach a football team, not as an entertainer
• there are also comparisons with LJ which I think are wide of the mark.  LJ really was an example of a “not my fault, I’m doing everything right” manager, whereas LM already comes across as much more honest, open and likely to respond in a good way.

Other posters have commented on how enthusiastic the players appear under his management.

At the end of the day, it might not work out.  But I really hope we can give him a fair chance.
 

If we had a decent reputable DoF above him I wouldn’t be so concerned

[Redrascal2]

8 minutes ago, Charlie BCFC said:

Bang on, despite the results not being ideal. Performances for the most part have been good and you can see what he’s trying to implement, some people need to realise you can be angry at the Pearson sacking and give Manning time to prove himself

Agreed. If we only had a striker who could put away the chances we are creating then things would look a lot different. One only hopes Nahki is back soon and bang in form. Because our current fit strikers are not fit for purpose at the moment.

[Packman]

11 minutes ago, Charlie BCFC said:

Bang on, despite the results not being ideal. Performances for the most part have been good and you can see what he’s trying to implement, some people need to realise you can be angry at the Pearson sacking and give Manning time to prove himself

I have to disagree with this, think we've had a few decent spells but on the whole performances haven't been good. 

The main thing we had going for us was we were really solid and didn't concede many, can't say that now.

[Open End Numb Legs]

I agree with the premise of the OP, what concerns me most is our best play only came once 2 goals down and the team went to plan B. Whether that was LMs plan B or not would be good to know.

Early on we played too much ball to feet instead of running into space with the ball ahead of us.

[Bazooka Joe]

21 minutes ago, Charlie BCFC said:

Bang on, despite the results not being ideal. Performances for the most part have been good and you can see what he’s trying to implement, some people need to realise you can be angry at the Pearson sacking and give Manning time to prove himself

Two things.

Results are the only thing that, ultimately, matters. What we've been getting is very far from ideal, and therefore unacceptable.

And secondly, do you honestly believe "performances have for the most part been good" ?  If that was really the case, we'd be getting the results that fans rightly expect.

[Silvio Dante]

1 minute ago, Bazooka Joe said:

Two things.

Results are the only thing that, ultimately, matters. What we've been getting is very far from ideal, and therefore unacceptable.

And secondly, do you honestly believe "performances have for the most part been good" ?  If that was really the case, we'd be getting the results that fans rightly expect.

To be fair, results can sometimes lag performance. Thats not uncommon so saying performance has been good isn’t in itself a controversial statement,

(Case in point - under Holden performance was shite but results came in despite that until they regressed to what the performance deserved)

The fatal flaw here is that the performances haven’t been good (there have been patches but no more than 45 minutes and that was only one game), and even more fatally, they’re getting worse as Liam spends more time “on the grass”

[wendyredredrobin]

From what I have seen so far, Liam Manning seems to be unable to produce anything better from this squad than Nigel Pearson, suggesting that it is the quality and self motivation of the squad rather than the manager.

None of us really know why Nigel Pearson was let go.  It was certainly against the wishes of the fans, but clearly there is more to it than meets the eye and none of us really know what went on or was said behind closed doors (Maybe Nige had  enough, wanted to retire and reached a settlement to go now - if he gets another management job elsewhere, then we will know that was not the case).

We need a Championship quality goalkeeper who can catch and distribute a football, a right back (though McCrorrie might solve that when fit) and a real striker and maybe need to move a few sicknotes on and one or two who are over the hill.  I'm not sure what sort of transfer kitty might be available, but I'm guessing not a lot.

Our recent record suggests that we are more likely to be finding ourselves in a scrap at the bottom of the table than the top and a top 6 finish is no more than a pipe dream now.

The club as a whole seems to be going in a downward direction and I doubt that will change unless SL sells the club or brings in new investors (neither of which seems likely).

[Ivorguy]

Seems to me saying it is early days is similar to comments made at Pompeii when Vesuvius first began to throw ash down on the city.

We don’t need months to come to judgement.  Sadly LM is self evidently out of his depth in this league

Personally I think this will go the way of GJ’s leaving, ie he will lose the dressing room - modern day footballers are not like those of the Fifties and Sixties.  Most, if not all,  of them are professionals in every way, and will not expect one man to ruin their own personal goals for their career.

Belt up for a rough ride

[Numero Uno]

39 minutes ago, Charlie BCFC said:

Bang on, despite the results not being ideal. Performances for the most part have been good and you can see what he’s trying to implement, some people need to realise you can be angry at the Pearson sacking and give Manning time to prove himself

I’m giving him a dozen more games and if he still has a 50% or higher defeat record then I think it’s fair to question wtf is happening and why the change was made. We weren’t losing that proportion of games under the last Manager and he had far more shit to deal with in terms of the squad inherited and FFFP restrictions. In addition he will have brought players in by that stage.

[spudski]

Possession I'm seeing...

Moving the ball quicker, with fewer touches...I'm seeing. 

Better angles and movement to receive...I'm seeing. 

' Front foot, attacking, entertaining football'...I'm not. 

Results terrible.

Now 5 points off a relegation spot.

And 23 points away from an automatic promotion spot. Almost double points to what we have. 

Needs to turn this round fast imo.

 

 

 

[GrahamC]

Still early days for Cifuentes too, spot the difference?

Some will claim their improvement is because he isn’t Ainsworth, but it was Critchley before him & they were shite then as well.

Not saying it is easy & he could do with 2 or 3 back from injury (as NP would have wanted too) but he needs to stick to a formation & largely a starting XI & see where that takes him.

[bearded_red]

The issue is surely there was absolutely no need at all for there to be ‘early days’. 

It was a team performing to a perfectly adequate level, the ability and level of performance possible in the team was being shown. There was no under performance, there was no threat of relegation, there was no mutiny within the squad. Nothing was ‘wrong’.

No manager in my time watching has ever taken over in as good a position. So there is no need for any particular amount of patience. For example, some people will find this hilarious, but I wasn’t in support of the sacking of Sean O’Driscoll at the time because I felt there should be more patience due to the absolute shambles he had taken over, Gary Johnson received nothing but support from me through the record losing run because, again, the situation he inherited needed time to sort out.

This isn’t the case here, if Liam Manning replacing Nigel Pearson was correct, then the outcome would be clear much quicker than usual with changes of manager at City. The (very) early signs are that it wasn’t.

Our players are not perfect, they play for us for crying out loud. But we are now seeing players receiving a lot of criticism and people talking about mass clear outs and however many signings needed to come in. Nobody would be saying any of these things if Pearson was still manager.
 

We would still be a style suited our players, and has been recruited for over the past three years windows. It was a joke of a decision, and even if Manning does get this ‘right’, I think it’s surely clear that we have been hugely set back as a club. 
 

I’m afraid it is difficult to be ‘patient’ when it just feels like an act of self sabotage 

[Robbored]

We’ve been here before with both Johnson’s - lengthy runs without a win but SL stuck with both of them and both eventually overstayed their welcome.

Will the same happen with Manning?…………

[BCFCGav]

I think 90% of frustrated fans aren't frustrated with Manning. They're frustrated that for the first time in years we were looking up the table, the Lansdown's inexplicably decided that was the time for a change, and now we're back to looking over our shoulder. We've wasted many years as is, but never by actively choosing to do so.

[Monkeh]

36 minutes ago, Ivorguy said:

Seems to me saying it is early days is similar to comments made at Pompeii when Vesuvius first began to throw ash down on the city.

We don’t need months to come to judgement.  Sadly LM is self evidently out of his depth in this league

Personally I think this will go the way of GJ’s leaving, ie he will lose the dressing room - modern day footballers are not like those of the Fifties and Sixties.  Most, if not all,  of them are professionals in every way, and will not expect one man to ruin their own personal goals for their career.

Belt up for a rough ride

The openly critical comment on commentary from 2 senior players tells us the dressing room aren't backing him 

[Numero Uno]

1 minute ago, Robbored said:

We’ve been here before with both Johnson’s - lengthy runs without a win but SL stuck with both of them and both eventually overstayed their welcome.

Will the same happen with Manning?…………

I hope Manning gets this right, I really do. History tells us that there is one thing the family in charge don't do.....and that's admit they have made a mistake. If Manning bombs we are in big trouble. That's where I sympathise with people who say we need to support him - the alternative is not worth contemplating. Manning needs to learn very quickly on the job and arrest this poor start he's made. He needs the likes of Wells, Atkinson and Naismith back sharpish.

[KingHillRed]

In reply to the OP's question - no it isn't as bad as we're all making it out

We're more expansive in attack now which, in turn, has re-highlighted the defensive frailties that Nige had mostly managed to iron out

Vyner for example, had been pretty well protected under Nige and was playing well

He's not got that protection now and, for me, it has highlighted his defensive inabilities and were leaking soft goals again

If he can get a handle on that (by binning Vyner IMO when numbers are back) we'll be a force

[1960maaan]

18 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Still early days for Cifuentes too, spot the difference?

Some will claim their improvement is because he isn’t Ainsworth, but it was Critchley before him & they were shite then as well.

Not saying it is easy & he could do with 2 or 3 back from injury (as NP would have wanted too) but he needs to stick to a formation & largely a starting XI & see where that takes him.

From my point of view , and I said this elsewhere. 
Cifuentes took over a team short on confidence and playing a brand of football alien to how they have played previously . Under Beale they were going well, playing some good football. The way he went about things , spouting loyalty while working towards a way out ,and even visiting Rangers for a game after he had been linked, seemed to undermine all they had done before . Under Critchley they carried on struggling ,and Ainsworth seemingly going longer and less possession based. 

We were going OK and Pearson had fostered good team spirit , confidence even after a tricky spell was ok . The only thing in Manning's favour coming in was injuries looking to be easing.

So from my perspective , Cifuentes has a chance to go in instil a little confidence and enthusiasm . He is getting them back to playing football and they seem to be enjoying it. That improves the team without anything too clever football wise being too clever. Manning has nowhere to improve except on the pitch and that was always likely to be a bumpy ride as we were already at a reasonable level. 

That, IMO is why we didn't get the "New Manager Bounce" .  If we are to get real improvement I think it will be a little longer in coming , at least results wise. 
I honestly think with a little more luck, and mainly fewer errors , this conversation is different.

All ifs ( and big ones ) but We probably deserved something at Southampton, should have beaten Norwich and Huddersfield and could have nicked a draw at least yesterday. 7 more points and we are sitting pretty. 

 

[Sir Geoff]

5 minutes ago, KingHillRed said:

In reply to the OP's question - no it isn't as bad as we're all making it out

We're more expansive in attack now which, in turn, has re-highlighted the defensive frailties that Nige had mostly managed to iron out

Vyner for example, had been pretty well protected under Nige and was playing well

He's not got that protection now and, for me, it has highlighted his defensive inabilities and were leaking soft goals again

If he can get a handle on that (by binning Vyner IMO when numbers are back) we'll be a force

Are we though? Please explain what you are seeing. So far I have seen Bell regress (albeit from a low position), Sykes played slightly deeper and continually substituted, Tommy isolated up front, Mehmeti running into players and over hitting crosses.

The only change I have seen is Knight playing a bit closer to Tommy, but then leaving huge hole behind him.

Our goal at Huddersfield was a classic Pearson counter attack goal, TGH scored a worldy, Conway a Pen.

Where is this expansive attacking play, cos I'm yet to see it.

 

[bearded_red]

1 minute ago, Sir Geoff said:

 

Where is this expansive attacking play, cos I'm yet to see it.

 

Don’t worry, there hasn’t been any. Slow possession played in front of the other team is about as far away from ‘expansive attacking play’ as you can get.

You rightly point out the goal at Huddersfield, I’m probably being slightly facetious, but I didn’t understand the great enthusiasm from people clearly (somehow) excited about the football Manning is supposedly trying to play for the first half at Southampton when let’s be clear, the opposition had the ball and we played counter attack.. so we played the football we were best at under Nige? 
 

[KingHillRed]

5 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

Are we though? Please explain what you are seeing. So far I have seen Bell regress (albeit from a low position), Sykes played slightly deeper and continually substituted, Tommy isolated up front, Mehmeti running into players and over hitting crosses.

The only change I have seen is Knight playing a bit closer to Tommy, but then leaving huge hole behind him.

Our goal at Huddersfield was a classic Pearson counter attack goal, TGH scored a worldy, Conway a Pen.

Where is this expansive attacking play, cos I'm yet to see it.

 

I don't disagree - Bell has gone backwards, as has Tommy, but these are young kids who aren't machines and a new approach and new philosophy will take time

We are definitely committing more men forwards in attacks and the way I see it is that it is exposing the same defensive frailties that were there before

In a game of very, very fine margins goals will come

The issue then becomes why did we change what we all thought wasn't broken under NP - but we did so trying to pick some positives up

[mozo]

1 hour ago, Silvio Dante said:

To be fair, results can sometimes lag performance. Thats not uncommon so saying performance has been good isn’t in itself a controversial statement,

(Case in point - under Holden performance was shite but results came in despite that until they regressed to what the performance deserved)

The fatal flaw here is that the performances haven’t been good (there have been patches but no more than 45 minutes and that was only one game), and even more fatally, they’re getting worse as Liam spends more time “on the grass”

I agree, but it was the same in the 10 or so games pre-Manning.

[milo1111]

1 hour ago, Barrs Court Red said:

It’s not early days for the ones people are aiming their ire at though is it, it’s over 20 years…

Nail on head. It’s not about manning. I hope he comes good but I’m worried he won’t. It’s about the lansdowns and tinnion.

[CodeRed]

24 minutes ago, Robbored said:

We’ve been here before with both Johnson’s - 

Your a trier I'll give you that,  a tough job to get a thread about how we all perceive the start Liam Manning has made derailed onto the subject of your nemesis but you're giving it a go! 

[W-S-M Seagull]

1 hour ago, Charlie BCFC said:

Bang on, despite the results not being ideal. Performances for the most part have been good and you can see what he’s trying to implement, some people need to realise you can be angry at the Pearson sacking and give Manning time to prove himself

I don't know what team you've been watching but it certainly hasn't been us. 

Performances for the most part have not been good! 

Answer me this, do you think Bristol City is a charity? Why should people like me have to accept going backwards whilst we give Manning a chance to prove himself? This talk really infuriates me. It's that sort of attitude that has forever held this club back. 

He was expected to come in and improve our position and our results instantly (which were ok) and after 6 games he's failed to do that. At times we have looked a shambles. 

I don't feel sorry for him. He signed up to this high pressure job knowing that the fans would at the very least demand that our position and results remained the same. He's made some decisions that make it hard to have sympathy for him. 

[Numero Uno]

6 minutes ago, mozo said:

I agree, but it was the same in the 10 or so games pre-Manning.

In the last ten games pre-Manning we picked up 13 points, and the same in Pearson’s last ten if you want to use that instead (so 16 in last 11). Those runs included Leeds and Leicester away. If Manning potters along at 1.3 points per game the majority of people will be ok with that for now. That’s a 60 point season, uninspiring but acceptable. If he’s still at 0.83 after a dozen games it won’t be the same at all and people will be rightly jarred off.