Did he really say this???

[formerly known as ivan]

"Data doesn’t give you points or change league positions, but what it does tell you is the direction you’re heading in and if you continue to create chances, and minimise the opposition, then you’ll win games."

Assuming this is a correct quote from Manning as it’s on the Bristol Live page. What waffle! Back to the days of measuring grass it would seem. Its nearly enough to make you want to tap out at this point.

[Silvio Dante]

I’m not sure I see that quote as anything particularly irksome. All it’s doing is saying that if youve been on top in games the results tend to come.

I’ve been far more narked by some of the other things LM has said, but that one seems pretty innocuous to me (I was more annoyed when he brought up Blackburn’s xG compared to normal for example).

All assuming he’s looking at the right data though and not possession stats for the sake of possession stats! 

[Bainsey]

Don't see anything wrong with that quote myself.

[Son of Fred]

5 minutes ago, formerly known as ivan said:

"Data doesn’t give you points or change league positions, but what it does tell you is the direction you’re heading in and if you continue to create chances, and minimise the opposition, then you’ll win games."

Assuming this is a correct quote from Manning as it’s on the Bristol Live page. What waffle! Back to the days of measuring grass it would seem. Its nearly enough to make you want to tap out at this point.

Another bullshitter???

Albeit one with even less experience than Lee had under his belt when he joined us.

 

[formerly known as ivan]

8 minutes ago, Bainsey said:

Don't see anything wrong with that quote myself.

The fact it’s a load of nonsense?

[Unan]

4 minutes ago, formerly known as ivan said:

The fact it’s a load of nonsense?

Well it isn’t, Brentford/Brighton etc being obvious examples of the ‘big data’ models. Our problem is we’ve always been shit at using it effectively.  

[red panda]

MANNING OUT!  Data are plural   Apart from that I don't see any problem at all

[GrahamC]

I think people are going to have to get used to his persona & personally can’t see the issue with this one at all.

He’s not Pearson in terms of what he says but he wasn’t picked by Lansdown & Tinnion for that.

Obvious but people will stop obsessing about this stuff if we start picking up more points, it will become a stick to beat him with if we don’t.

[Abraham Romanovich]

What is worrying is this over reliance on data, if it was just a case of analysis to produce the best outcome you may as well get an AI program in house.

To make a team better than the sum of its parts numerous unquantifiable components come into play , carrot or stick for some players etc

Man management plays a huge part in making sure 11 individuals from  differing backgrounds perform as a collective.

We seem to have employed a one trick pony .

[W-S-M Seagull]

23 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

I’m not sure I see that quote as anything particularly irksome. All it’s doing is saying that if youve been on top in games the results tend to come.

I’ve been far more narked by some of the other things LM has said, but that one seems pretty innocuous to me (I was more annoyed when he brought up Blackburn’s xG compared to normal for example).

All assuming he’s looking at the right data though and not possession stats for the sake of possession stats! 

But have we been on top in games? I'm not sure about that. I've said this a million times but passing it around your cbs whilst the opposition allow you to do that isn't what I'd class as being on top.

I'm not sure that the data suggest we're heading in the right direction.

The xG comment annoyed me too. 

One minute he's saying he doesn't use any data when deciding on subs and instead just uses a feeling and the next he's trying to use data in an attempt to show we are heading in the right directions. I don't know, those things just don't marry up to me. 

There is something about his integrity that bothers me. 

He's starting to come across as a bullshitter just like LJ. But he was the same during his interviews following defeats for MK and Oxford.

Edited December 16, 2023 by W-S-M Seagull

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

But have we been on top in games?

Yes.

 

 

But we’ve also been under the cosh at times too!

[Charlie BCFC]

I’m so glad we have another pointless thread about people trying to catch our new manager out!

[Charlie BCFC]

3 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

But have we been on top in games? I'm not sure about that. I've said this a million times but passing it around your cbs whilst the opposition allow you to do that isn't what I'd class as being on top.

I'm not sure that the data suggest we're heading in the right direction.

The xG comment annoyed me too. 

One minute he's saying he doesn't use any data when deciding on subs and instead just uses a feeling and the next he's trying to use data in an attempt to show we are heading in the right directions. I don't know, those things just don't marry up to me. 

There is something about his integrity 

Just because he doesn’t do that for subs doesn’t mean he will to assess our progress. Highly doubt he’s glued to a computer screen during the game to make all his in game management decisions

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

The fact that people are ridiculing Manning’s comment stuns me in the context of modern football.  Analysing data is exactly the same as ‘working out what is happening’ and which successful club isn’t doing that to the maximum extent?  And he even qualifies it, rightly, by saying that analysing data in itself doesn’t win you games, but is a critical tool in getting you to where you want to be.

Perfectly valid and wholly encouraging quote from the coach, which should be welcomed by fans.

[formerly known as ivan]

4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Yes.

 

 

But we’ve also been under the cosh at times too!

So it makes the quote even worse then as the data showing we are in top doesn’t equate to wins?

[GrahamC]

Just now, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

The fact that people are ridiculing Manning’s comment stuns me in the context of modern football.  Analysing data is exactly the same as ‘working out what is happening’ and which successful club isn’t doing that to the maximum extent?  And he even qualifies it, rightly, by saying that analysing data in itself doesn’t win you games, but is a critical tool in getting you to where you want to be.

Perfectly valid and wholly encouraging quote from the coach, which should be welcomed by fans.

You’re completely right but if we had more than 5 points from a possible 18 then this sort of nonsense wouldn’t happen.

[Charlie BCFC]

Just now, formerly known as ivan said:

So it makes the quote even worse then as the data showing we are in top doesn’t equate to wins?

Hence why he said data doesn’t equate to league position or points then

[formerly known as ivan]

13 minutes ago, Marcus Aurelius said:

Well it isn’t, Brentford/Brighton etc being obvious examples of the ‘big data’ models. Our problem is we’ve always been shit at using it effectively.  

Ok, let me rephrase this… obviously data plays a part, but who cares? All we want to see is a good performance and a win. How that happens is irrelevant. When we are in such poor form and he starts coming out with quotes about data showing the direction we are heading in it’s nonsense! We know the direction we are heading in as the league table and performances tell us that. I couldn’t care about how many times our centre backs pass to each other!

[formerly known as ivan]

3 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

You’re completely right but if we had more than 5 points from a possible 18 then this sort of nonsense wouldn’t happen.

If we had more than 5 points from the 18 he wouldn’t be talking about data full stop!

5 minutes ago, Charlie BCFC said:

Hence why he said data doesn’t equate to league position or points then

So what does it show?

[Betty Swallocks]

41 minutes ago, formerly known as ivan said:

"Data doesn’t give you points or change league positions, but what it does tell you is the direction you’re heading in and if you continue to create chances, and minimise the opposition, then you’ll win games."

Assuming this is a correct quote from Manning as it’s on the Bristol Live page. What waffle! Back to the days of measuring grass it would seem. Its nearly enough to make you want to tap out at this point.

Posts from 1973. 
 

This isn’t the gotcha moment you think it is.

Everyone is using data now, it’s how you use that data. In terms of modern football, his comments here are definitely not out of the ordinary.

Hopefully we can start sticking the ball in the back of the net so this kind of nonsense can stop.

[W-S-M Seagull]

10 minutes ago, Charlie BCFC said:

Just because he doesn’t do that for subs doesn’t mean he will to assess our progress. Highly doubt he’s glued to a computer screen during the game to make all his in game management decisions

No I get that but its just a bit all over the place isn't it? 

One minute he doesn't use any data for subs and then he's relying on data to get a message across. 

It's just not really consistent. 

I don't think no manager should not use data, but then I also think no manager should simply rely upon data. 

What we're seeing here is an inexperienced Manager learning his craft on the job. 

[cidercity1987]

47 minutes ago, formerly known as ivan said:

"Data doesn’t give you points or change league positions, but what it does tell you is the direction you’re heading in and if you continue to create chances, and minimise the opposition, then you’ll win games."

Assuming this is a correct quote from Manning as it’s on the Bristol Live page. What waffle! Back to the days of measuring grass it would seem. Its nearly enough to make you want to tap out at this point.

This approach might be useful if he uses it in the reverse context where results are outperforming data. 'Results are good but they are better than the underlying data, we need to keep improving otherwise our results will drop off soon'

[Silvio Dante]

4 minutes ago, cidercity1987 said:

This approach might be useful if he uses it in the reverse context where results are outperforming data. 'Results are good but they are better than the underlying data, we need to keep improving otherwise our results will drop off soon'

That was exactly what we saw under Dean Holden.

The trick here is that most commonly, the data will align with what the eyes see in the context of whether a team is playing well or not. Again, I don’t see anything wrong in this quote but I think what may be rubbing people up the wrong way is that if the data says we’re not getting what we deserve by the evidence of the eyes it’s wrong.

I’m probably one of the most unconvinced about Manning on here but the jumping down his throat on everything is getting tiresome. I’ll happily criticise on what I see, but not on an innocuous quote.

[TheReds]

3 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

No I get that but its just a bit all over the place isn't it? 

One minute he doesn't use any data for subs and then he's relying on data to get a message across. 

It's just not really consistent. 

I don't think no manager should not use data, but then I also think no manager should simply rely upon data. 

What we're seeing here is an inexperienced Manager learning his craft on the job. 

Eh?

So in your analysis he uses data to get some sort of message across (implying he is wrong), but he doesn't use data to make subs (implying that is wrong)? So the conclusion is that he is all over the place.

Then you seem to complain and make a point that a manager should use some data, but then no manager should simply not rely on it.

Well that is exactly what he is doing isn't it going by your first part. He isn't relying on data because his subs aren't driven by data.
 

[Davefevs]

27 minutes ago, formerly known as ivan said:

So it makes the quote even worse then as the data showing we are in top doesn’t equate to wins?

In some respects, yes.  Although we’d need to know what data he’s using to measure this.  We can spin data however we want.

He’ll have more sophisticated data that I get from Wyscout or The Analyst for example.  As a hobbyist I think the stuff I prepare and use for the purposes of sharing thoughts on OTIB and Twitter is of reasonable quality.  Without getting all boring, it covers attacking data, defensive data, in-possession data and pressing data.  Imho it’s a much more rounded view than looking at BBC’s possession, shots and shots on target data.

I wrote this back in the summer:

https://medium.com/@davefevs/unraveling-the-efl-championship-4d8c337259eb

This was the conclusion:

In terms of LM’s 6 games here, I’ve yet to see any real trend towards improvement.  I’d summarise it as - playing a (slightly?) different way to achieve similar outcomes. At the moment I’d say results don’t quite match performances, ie we’ve left a point or two out there on the pitch.  But we did under Nige too.  The big question for me is whether over time…and I’m not talking the rest of the season, I’m talking next half a dozen games…will be start to see the fruits of his Labour.  Yesterday he told us most of the “ingraining” was done.  It’s now about execution.

People talk about needing a pre-season before we can judge.  When you look at a pre-season schedule it’s not a huge amount of time to do football stuff, as the early part is taken up with mainly fitness work, and it ends with friendlies whilst trying to embed the football system.  It’s about 5 weeks long in total.  I’m not saying the die should be cast now, but we also need to stop making too many excuses for him also.

We are now moving towards the point where there ought to be some “tangibles” coming through…at least in comparison to the point he took other.  It’s not quite honeymoon period over, but you’re beginning to think about checking the flights home are still scheduled the same!

Edited December 16, 2023 by Davefevs

[Gazred]

There's no story here, he's using data like any other modern club does. It's an assistive tool, he's not taking direct orders from some football manager AI bot.

This is just being used as a stick to beat him with IMO.

God I hope we get a win today.

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, Gazred said:

There's no story here, he's using data like any other modern club does. It's an assistive tool, he's not taking direct orders from some football manager AI bot.

This is just being used as a stick to beat him with IMO.

God I hope we get a win today.

Boom.

[W-S-M Seagull]

3 minutes ago, TheReds said:

Eh?

So in your analysis he uses data to get some sort of message across (implying he is wrong), but he doesn't use data to make subs (implying that is wrong)? So the conclusion is that he is all over the place.

Then you seem to complain and make a point that a manager should use some data, but then no manager should simply not rely on it.

Well that is exactly what he is doing isn't it going by your first part. He isn't relying on data because his subs aren't driven by data.
 

No. What I'm saying is it should be a combination of things. So when making a sub it should be done on eyes, feelings and data. 

When talking about performances it should be the same. 

The fact he says he doesn't use any data at all for one thing but then relies upon it for something else is just a bit all over the place. 

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

1 hour ago, formerly known as ivan said:

"Data doesn’t give you points or change league positions, but what it does tell you is the direction you’re heading in and if you continue to create chances, and minimise the opposition, then you’ll win games."

Assuming this is a correct quote from Manning as it’s on the Bristol Live page. What waffle! Back to the days of measuring grass it would seem. Its nearly enough to make you want to tap out at this point.

I think you "tapped out" at the point you felt it necessary to start a thread on an inconsequential sentence.

[Phileas Fogg]

1 hour ago, formerly known as ivan said:

"Data doesn’t give you points or change league positions, but what it does tell you is the direction you’re heading in and if you continue to create chances, and minimise the opposition, then you’ll win games."

Assuming this is a correct quote from Manning as it’s on the Bristol Live page. What waffle! Back to the days of measuring grass it would seem. It’s nearly enough to make you want to tap out at this point.

 I listened to the press conference (rather than picking out a quote with no context from a printed summary) and I believe this was an answer directly to a question about data.. in which case, what else is he supposed to say in his answer?