Did he really say this???

[Peter1450]

From a guy who just likes watching City on a Saturday with his lad and grandson with a beer or two thrown in, never used a spreadsheet in my many years!

     Me and many others have made the point on previous threads that you can study and work with all the data you can muster but if the squad you are working with aren’t talented enough or on board with how you work it’s just meaningless in the reality that’s a cold damp Ashton Gate.

       Hoping for something to get us out of our seats today please.

  

Edited December 16, 2023 by Peter1450

[ExiledAjax]

Man says correct thing and people get annoyed by it.

[Phileas Fogg]

4 minutes ago, Peter1450 said:

From a guy who just likes watching City on a Saturday with his lad and grandson with a beer or two thrown in, never used a spreadsheet in my many years!

     Me and many others have made the point on previous threads that you can study and work with all the data you can muster but if the squad you are working with aren’t talented enough or on board with how you work it’s just meaningless in the reality that’s a cold damp Ashton Gate.

       Hoping for something to get us out of our seats today please.

  

Not really. Data underpins everything. You could argue that use of data could help a less talented squad find alternative ways to win.

Some people are real Luddites about data. If you apply that view, why stop there? What’s the point in a gym programme for the players or a good diet if they’re not as talented as Leicester’s squad?

All these ‘newfangled’ facets of managing a football team really do seem to spook some people for some reason. 

Edited December 16, 2023 by Phileas Fogg

[W-S-M Seagull]

4 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

All these ‘newfangled’ facets of managing a football team really do seem to spook some people for some reason. 

Data is just that, data. Now I like data. But data doesn't tell you everything. Football is still a game that's full of randomness and emotions. 

Data might tell you that Sykes has made less runs than normal. It doesn't tell you why. But a good manager doesn't need data to tell him that Sykes has made less runs. He should just know that by what he sees with his eyes. 

Even Pep and Man City who have the best data available to them and Pep uses it himself, doesn't simply rely upon the data. 

The best managers have all that data in their head without the need of a spreadsheet to tell them it. 

[italian dave]

46 minutes ago, formerly known as ivan said:

Ok, let me rephrase this… obviously data plays a part, but who cares? All we want to see is a good performance and a win. How that happens is irrelevant. When we are in such poor form and he starts coming out with quotes about data showing the direction we are heading in it’s nonsense! We know the direction we are heading in as the league table and performances tell us that. I couldn’t care about how many times our centre backs pass to each other!

Would you apply the same logic to other things that “play a part”? Like training. Like fitness. Like coaching? 

[Swede]

As others have said we have heard this type of "coaching" talk before so its frankly, a bit of a yawn fest to here from someone wwho's far less experienced at it. Its like teaching a granny to suck eggs. We had quite the opposite with Nige. In fact he made it quite entertaining with his brutal reposte when asked a banal question.

If I was Manning I would focus less on the coaching spiel (we've all had enough of that) and concentrate on what drives him or what he likes to see in his players. He obviously rates Sykes and Knight which is great to hear. This would endear him more to fans. In fairness to him, there are a lot of players out injured so that must be equally frustrating for him, not having the opportunity to work with and vary his methods but just as equally frustrating as not playing TGH from a fans perspective.

I watched his Sunderland presser last night but in the background I could hear a faint bleeping noise, it was my imaginary bull5hit detector going off. Granted, a little less louder than recent times but still there. 

[italian dave]

5 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

 

The best managers have all that data in their head without the need of a spreadsheet to tell them it. 

You mean all those @Davefevs posts can be condensed into your head?

[Northern Red]

Ah good, we're at the stage of inventing things to get annoyed about now.

Always a sign that it's going well.

[RedRock]

Back to the science vs art argument.

I get the science bit, I really do, but football is also an art. This is showing signs of Shaun ‘I don’t look at the league table’ O’Driscoll. He was all about possession and data. Unfortunately, without him looking at the tables we became firmly anchored to the bottom of Division 1. And then came, Cotts who ‘built a team’, and what a team! 

We do seem to lurch between the two approaches. SoD to Cotts then back to LJ, then on to Nige and now returning with Manning. Ever decreasing circles. 

Thought after Nige’s appointment we’d now never see Warnock down The Gate … but, the next spin of the wheel and back to the ‘building a team of fighters’ approach? 

 

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, Swede said:

As others have said we have heard this type of "coaching" talk before so its frankly, a bit of a yawn fest to here from someone wwho's far less experienced at it. Its like teaching a granny to suck eggs. We had quite the opposite with Nige. In fact he made it quite entertaining with his brutal reposte when asked a banal question.

If I was Manning I would focus less on the coaching spiel (we've all had enough of that) and concentrate on what drives him or what he likes to see in his players. He obviously rates Sykes and Knight which is great to hear. This would endear him more to fans. In fairness to him, there are a lot of players out injured so that must be equally frustrating for him, not having the opportunity to work with and vary his methods but just as equally frustrating as not playing TGH from a fans perspective.

I watched his Sunderland presser last night but in the background I could hear a faint bleeping noise, it was my imaginary bull5hit detector going off. Granted, a little less louder than recent times but still there. 

It’s funny because Nige was big on data, we just didn’t hear it from him in interviews (or very rarely). Probably because as you say, it’s a yawn fest for the audience.

Him and his staff got the players to buy into it.  They wanted to have “discussions” with the players as a team and individually that were fact based rather than opinion / subjective based.  There are discussions that become irrefutable with data at the core, but accepting data can’t be everything.  Data isn’t just numbers, it’s video too…data would be better positioned as helping to evidence what happened, rather than being seen as a set of bland numbers..

[Sandhurst Red]

I have no issue with this.

Other teams that have used data to a high level in the last few years and seen success.

Brighton
Brentford
Burnley

You can become over reliant on it, but give the guy chance to get across his methods. It feels like some held Pearson in so high regard they fail to remember some of the awful football, and results we had under him. Even more so, any lack of consistency in terms of results. Other clubs would have disposed of Pearson long before we did. I can't stress enough the superb job NP did, in terms of rebuild the club and actively change the ethos/mess inherited and for that we should all be grateful. 

Manning has been here for around 30 days and already people want him gone. He's not even had one transfer window and we are missing arguably 6 players who would argue their case for a starting place. Just be a little more patient and see how this evolves. 

[cidered abroad]

1 hour ago, Silvio Dante said:

I’m not sure I see that quote as anything particularly irksome. All it’s doing is saying that if youve been on top in games the results tend to come.

I’ve been far more narked by some of the other things LM has said, but that one seems pretty innocuous to me (I was more annoyed when he brought up Blackburn’s xG compared to normal for example).

All assuming he’s looking at the right data though and not possession stats for the sake of possession stats! 

What the hell is this xG?

[transfer reader]

1 hour ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

No I get that but its just a bit all over the place isn't it? 

One minute he doesn't use any data for subs and then he's relying on data to get a message across. 

It's just not really consistent. 

I don't think no manager should not use data, but then I also think no manager should simply rely upon data. 

What we're seeing here is an inexperienced Manager learning his craft on the job. 

You dont think managers shouldn't use data, but you don't think they should rely on data.

 

But you're criticising him for using data and not relying on it, calling that approach "all over the place"

Edited December 16, 2023 by transfer reader

[W-S-M Seagull]

4 minutes ago, Sandhurst Red said:

I have no issue with this.

Other teams that have used data to a high level in the last few years and seen success.

Brighton
Brentford
Burnley

You can become over reliant on it, but give the guy chance to get across his methods. It feels like some held Pearson in so high regard they fail to remember some of the awful football, and results we had under him. Even more so, any lack of consistency in terms of results. Other clubs would have disposed of Pearson long before we did. I can't stress enough the superb job NP did, in terms of rebuild the club and actively change the ethos/mess inherited and for that we should all be grateful. 

Manning has been here for around 30 days and already people want him gone. He's not even had one transfer window and we are missing arguably 6 players who would argue their case for a starting place. Just be a little more patient and see how this evolves. 

At least our results are consistent now. Consistently shit. 

[W-S-M Seagull]

2 minutes ago, transfer reader said:

You dont think managers shouldn't use data, but you don't think they should rely on data.

 

 

Correct. Because data doesn't tell you everything. It doesn't give you all the answers. 

Of course data should be used, but it should be used amongst other methods too. 

[Tomo]

Crikey. Nit picking Imo.

I don't think yesterday's press conference was too shoddy. Liam spoke well considering the bad run of results we are experiencing.

As some of you may know, I am a Football Data Analyst, collecting every ball moving moment during the game, which is used 'live' by 1000's of bookmakers worldwide. It mirrors the data that OPTA collect and I often chat with other analysts about the overkill of data used in football nowadays.

As Fevs said you can 'use data and spin it anyway you see fit'. Even after 370 Games since doing the job, I still have no idea of how the bookmakers use the data 'during the game and for future betting odds'. The world has gone so OTT on data collection.

Of course, data has it's role in Football, to use and develop a squad of players, but ultimately football is also a simple game and after 90+ minutes, the most important bit of data, is the scoreline!

[transfer reader]

4 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Correct. Because data doesn't tell you everything. It doesn't give you all the answers. 

Of course data should be used, but it should be used amongst other methods too. 

But that's exactly what you're criticising him for, calling that approach all over the place.

 

You went against your own point in the very post that you made it

[Major Isewater]

1 hour ago, Bainsey said:

Don't see anything wrong with that quote myself.

It’s not Shakespeare is it ? 

[NickJ]

2 hours ago, Bainsey said:

Don't see anything wrong with that quote myself.

Yeah, I can really see Brian Clough or Alex Ferguson or Bob Paisley saying that. 

Good old fashoned plain speaking English isnt good enough these days, you have to appear clever.

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, Tomo said:

Crikey. Nit picking Imo.

I don't think yesterday's press conference was too shoddy. Liam spoke well considering the bad run of results we are experiencing.

As some of you may know, I am a Football Data Analyst, collecting every ball moving moment during the game, which is used 'live' by 1000's of bookmakers worldwide. It mirrors the data that OPTA collect and I often chat with other analysts about the overkill of data used in football nowadays.

As Fevs said you can 'use data and spin it anyway you see fit'. Even after 370 Games since doing the job, I still have no idea of how the bookmakers use the data 'during the game and for future betting odds'. The world has gone so OTT on data collection.

Of course, data has it's role in Football, to use and develop a squad of players, but ultimately football is also a simple game and after 90+ minutes, the most important bit of data, is the scoreline!

My careers master at school never mentioned football data analysis as a career unfortunately.

Just for me could you describe a normal working day and how you gather the information, I’m genuinely interested, maybe others are as well.

[SydneyCity]

Data is only one way of seeing. Part of a toolkit.

Whether true or not, LM constantly talking about it while things clearly aren’t going great makes him seem like a corporate bullshitter. He’s not our new head coach, he’s our new middle manager.

[Sandhurst Red]

21 minutes ago, transfer reader said:

But that's exactly what you're criticising him for, calling that approach all over the place.

 

You went against your own point in the very post that you made it

I think we have a new found OTIB keyboard warrior in our Seagull member, who would argue that Black is White tbh. 

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, Countryfile said:

My careers master at school never mentioned football data analysis as a career unfortunately.

Just for me could you describe a normal working day and how you gather the information, I’m genuinely interested, maybe others are as well.

Nor mine, he suggesting banking or insurance.  Having said that, there weren’t any jobs doing it in the mid / late 80s.

[Tomo]

4 minutes ago, Countryfile said:

My careers master at school never mentioned football data analysis as a career unfortunately.

Just for me could you describe a normal working day and how you gather the information, I’m genuinely interested, maybe others are as well.

It's not my main profession fella but its a nice side earner. Thankfully, as I am Bristol based, I am not asked to cover premiership games as VAR is a bloody nightmare for data analysts, especially as live markets are frantic in receiving the correct information

The data is collected via an interface using a smartphone or laptop...it's an intense job tbf. Your eyes need to be everywhere but most importantly you need to keep your eyes on the referee. They are unpredictable

[W-S-M Seagull]

26 minutes ago, transfer reader said:

But that's exactly what you're criticising him for, calling that approach all over the place.

 

You went against your own point in the very post that you made it

No I didn't. You've misread. 

In the same interview he said he does not use data when making subs and then he goes on to use data to try to show us things aren't as bad as it looks. That's whats all over the place. 

Maybe if he was consistent in his use of data then we'd not be having this conversation? It's that inconsistency that I'm calling out. 

[Tomo]

8 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Nor mine, he suggesting banking or insurance.  Having said that, there weren’t any jobs doing it in the mid / late 80s.

AI is going to be massive going forward. Check out Second Spectrum technology. Mental. 

Edited December 16, 2023 by Tomo

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, Tomo said:

It's not my main profession fella but its a nice side earner. Thankfully, as I am Bristol based, I am not asked to cover premiership games as VAR is a bloody nightmare for data analysts, especially as live markets are frantic in receiving the correct information

The data is collected via an interface using a smartphone or laptop...it's an intense job tbf. Your eyes need to be everywhere but most importantly you need to keep your eyes on the referee. They are unpredictable

@Harry I reckon you were sat behind Tomorrow the other night!!!

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Nor mine, he suggesting banking or insurance.  Having said that, there weren’t any jobs doing it in the mid / late 80s.

The school I went to in the late sixties had bank robbery on the curriculum.

[W-S-M Seagull]

1 minute ago, Countryfile said:

The school I went to in the late sixties had bank robbery on the curriculum.

Merrywood? 

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

No I didn't. You've misread. 

In the same interview he said he does not use data when making subs and then he goes on to use data to try to show us things aren't as bad as it looks. That's whats all over the place. 

Maybe if he was consistent in his use of data then we'd not be having this conversation? It's that inconsistency that I'm calling out. 

I suspect he also has the “running” data too, just forms a small part of the decision making process.

If you go back to the whole dialogue, he first thought the question was whether he decided the subs, rather than is data involved…so I think he was thrown off the point of James P’s question.