Watford away match thread

[RedRoss]

James on Twitter has uploaded the full game if anyone is interested.

 

Edited December 27, 2023 by RedRoss

[REDOXO]

4 hours ago, BrizzleRed said:

Yes the old ignore button.  I’ve never actually resorted to in all my time on here, but there are definitely some tempting me lately.

I’ve always preferred to discuss, rather than ignore, but I need to remind myself why the phrase ‘flogging a dead horse’ exists!

You can’t discuss with fools. As someone’s signature says ‘they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience’ 

[BrizzleRed]

51 minutes ago, awbb said:

It's great to get 3 wins on the bounce. 

I don't think we'd have seen what we saw yesterday had we not grabbed those 6 points at home from games in which, on other days, we might not have been able to get over the line. Confidence helps so much.

The near impossibility in The Championship is to be able to do that game in and game out. It needs your Manager/Head Coach to get their plan right and have the players execute it. Most of the time, you need the opposition to help you by doing the opposite.

So, it's fair to say, I'm not expecting us to tear teams apart, yet, as much as I would like it! If we put Birmingham in our pocket and give Milwall a kicking at AG on New Year's Day, I might... just might start to get excited.

I'm not ******* bouncing until we've done something, after all. 

Amen to that

[CiderJar]

16 hours ago, Harry said:

It’s 100% “I’ll effing bounce when we do something”. 
 

Which is a great message.

Manning won't effing bounce,

He won't effing bounce until we win

 

 

Edited December 27, 2023 by CiderJar

[mozo]

1 hour ago, RUSSEL85 said:

Yes. It has put me off visiting or contributing on OTIB, good or bad results it results in a bloody argument.

And if anyone disagrees with me let’s have it out!! 

This forum will never change

[MC RISK77]

1 hour ago, mozo said:

This forum will never change

You are probably right,

FWIW I think the Pearson V Manning debate and point scoring will rumble on for the rest of the season, as we will undoubtably lose matches, maybe go on a 3-4 game losing run before we land where I think we will which will be anywhere between 8th-12th. You can then make an argument either way based on that when Pearson was sacked we were 11th and no one knows what could have happened when he got key players back from injury.

I appreciated the work Nigel did In his time with us when he was left to front this club out whilst he was working with a board who appear to have never really supported him fully, which is frankly appalling.

Did I really enjoy the football under Pearson- over the course of his tenure I would say slightly underwhelming so I hope the apparent more front football under Mannning continues and we can then see what happens when he has an opportunity to bring in his type of player in the summer.

 

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

11 minutes ago, MC RISK77 said:

Did I really enjoy the football under Pearson- over the course of his tenure I would say slightly underwhelming so I hope the apparent more front football under Mannning continues and we can then see what happens when he has an opportunity to bring in his type of player in the summer.

 

Slightly underwhelming??  I think that’s extremely generous…

[MC RISK77]

3 minutes ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

Slightly underwhelming??  I think that’s extremely generous…

I would say mildly generous

[Davefevs]

18 minutes ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

Slightly underwhelming??  I think that’s extremely generous…

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

I couldn’t sit and watch Russell Martin’s Swansea - rather stick hot toffee apples in my eyeballs. His Southampton side are mildly more aesthetically pleasing, but mainly because they have a couple of individuals who break the boring patterns.

[Kid in the Riot]

7 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

I couldn’t sit and watch Russell Martin’s Swansea - rather stick hot toffee apples in my eyeballs. His Southampton side are mildly more aesthetically pleasing, but mainly because they have a couple of individuals who break the boring patterns.

I realise this is totally off-topic but what were your favourite performances under Nige, Dave? I think it's fair to say there was a distinct lack of memorable wins and performances during that period.

The one that pops into my head is the 3 nil win over WBA in the FA Cup. Naismith recently moved into midfield, and felt we were in control against a decent in-form team at the time. 

[elhombrecito]

38 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

I couldn’t sit and watch Russell Martin’s Swansea - rather stick hot toffee apples in my eyeballs. His Southampton side are mildly more aesthetically pleasing, but mainly because they have a couple of individuals who break the boring patterns.

Amen. As I often bore @The turtle by telling him, I absolutely loathe Martinball. Passing for passings sake, with no apparent goal other than having more possession than the opposition.

[And Its Smith]

1 minute ago, elhombrecito said:

Amen. As I often bore @The turtle by telling him, I absolutely loathe Martinball. Passing for passings sake, with no apparent goal other than having more possession than the opposition.

I don’t like it either but I think Martin would refute the claim it’s passing for passing sake. 15 games unbeaten as well so he seems to know what he’s doing 

[Davefevs]

38 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

I realise this is totally off-topic but what were your favourite performances under Nige, Dave? I think it's fair to say there was a distinct lack of memorable wins and performances during that period.

The one that pops into my head is the 3 nil win over WBA in the FA Cup. Naismith recently moved into midfield, and felt we were in control against a decent in-form team at the time. 

Several.  Not always about the result either.

If I look at this season, the draw at Hull, the win at Swansea stick in my mind, we ripped both teams apart at times.  I’m not allowed to use Plymouth, am I?

I also see lots of other things that give me good vibes….Vyner at Atkinson coming of age as a pair having needed “babysitting” by Atkinson and King last season.

Luton (h) and Cardiff (h) back to back last season.  West Brom (a), think it was a Sky match.

Lots of games with WSM.

Etc.

 

[sh1t_ref_again]

55 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

I realise this is totally off-topic but what were your favourite performances under Nige, Dave? I think it's fair to say there was a distinct lack of memorable wins and performances during that period.

The one that pops into my head is the 3 nil win over WBA in the FA Cup. Naismith recently moved into midfield, and felt we were in control against a decent in-form team at the time. 

We were very good in that game, but did have a certain £25m young lad playing for us, in one of his best games he played 

[Mr Popodopolous]

17 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Several.  Not always about the result either.

If I look at this season, the draw at Hull, the win at Swansea stick in my mind, we ripped both teams apart at times.  I’m not allowed to use Plymouth, am I?

I also see lots of other things that give me good vibes….Vyner at Atkinson coming of age as a pair having needed “babysitting” by Atkinson and King last season.

Luton (h) and Cardiff (h) back to back last season.  West Brom (a), think it was a Sky match.

Lots of games with WSM.

Etc.

 

Could add a few.

Fulham at home first season as we were slowly emerging from the mess blinking into the light- that was vs a virtual PL side. We showed real character and some quite good football at times.

Atkinson double v Preston on a  rainy Wednesday night.

Sheffield United at home, Watford at home- we deserved so much more than 0 goals and 1 point, mix of officiating, wasteful finishing and some opposition resilience.

Norwich away, Blackburn away same season.

Some of these were losses but the performances themselves had a lot of good points.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Would argue too albeit I hesitate to use good performances in losses, Sunderland at home Opening home game 2022-23.

We played some very enterprising stuff, all round an entertaining gsme.

Birmingham home in January, Blackburn at some in some respects.

Blackpool away a very entertaining 3-3, Hull at home, Derby away April 2022.

[And Its Smith]

3 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Could add a few.

Fulham at home first season as we were slowly emerging from the mess blinking into the light- that was vs a virtual PL side. We showed real character and some quite good football at times.

Atkinson double v Preston on a  rainy Wednesday night.

Sheffield United at home, Watford at home- we deserved so much more than 0 goals and 1 point, mix of officiating, wasteful finishing and some opposition resilience.

Norwich away, Blackburn away same season.

Some of these were losses but the performances themselves had a lot of good points.

Some of your favourite performances being losses is peak Bristol City fan!  

[W-S-M Seagull]

36 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Several.  Not always about the result either.

If I look at this season, the draw at Hull, the win at Swansea stick in my mind, we ripped both teams apart at times.  I’m not allowed to use Plymouth, am I?

I also see lots of other things that give me good vibes….Vyner at Atkinson coming of age as a pair having needed “babysitting” by Atkinson and King last season.

Luton (h) and Cardiff (h) back to back last season.  West Brom (a), think it was a Sky match.

Lots of games with WSM.

Etc.

 

We've discussed this before but I felt we put in some really good performances last season, but not necessarily got the results. I said this 100s of times but the Sheffield Utd home game we played excellently. 

Personally I think people purposely like to ignore results/performances as that doesn't fit the script. 

Swansea and Hull Away we were exceptional. 

Edited December 27, 2023 by W-S-M Seagull

[Mr Popodopolous]

20 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

We've discussed this before but I felt we put in some really good performances last season, but not necessarily got the results. I said this 100s of times but the Sheffield Utd home game we played excellently. 

Personally I think people purposely like to ignore results/performances as that doesn't fit the script. 

Swansea and Hull Away we were exceptional. 

Yeah exactly.

Easy for some to discredit NP and encourage people to get behind the new manager, the latter we should do, if the past performances are downplayed by those with an agenda.

Edited December 27, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Harry]

22 hours ago, Harry said:

We saw a very well coached team today. 
 

 

8 hours ago, Davefevs said:

 

Thanks for posting your analysis Dave. 
 

I didn’t have time yesterday as I was out all night and all day today too. So I only had time for that quick “well coached” comment. Which I know got on your wick a little  

So I wanted to quantify it now I’ve got some time. 
 

As said to you on our WhatsApp chat, I thought we had a very interesting defensive set up yesterday. 
I saw us, in the 2nd half particularly, defending what I’d call the ‘2nd 18 yard box’. 
 

It demonstrated well in one of your tweets where you say that we were happy to let them have it in wide areas. 
If we watch very closely our ‘press’ was varied, dependent very much on area of pitch and speed of opposition play. 
 

So let’s imagine if we can a 2nd 18 yard box, on top of the first one. So the area from 18 yards to 36 yards, but narrow, just the width of the normal 18 yard box. 
 

Lets than imagine the press of a scale of 1 to 10, with 1 being totally standing off and 10 being ‘close down with all your might!’  
 

When Watford had the ball at the back we were mostly content with a press of about 4 or 5, but once the passing of the ball was a bit slower or we saw an opportunity to ‘gang up’ we increased this to an 8 or 9. 
This is what I always called ‘hunting in packs’. 
We were clever enough to understand when we had the numeric advantage and when the ball was played slow enough for us to ‘go go go’. 
Therefore, instead of just one man pressing and other maybe getting closer to the other men to prevent passing options we instead went toward the ball in 2’s and 3’s. Perfect example was the 3rd goal where Sykes started to press, Conway came from the other side and nicked the ball. 
We went in packs. But only when it was the right time. For the most part we were a 5 but we intensified it to a 9 when we saw the opportunity. 
 

That was our tactic in their half. 
When it came to them having possession in the central 3rd of the pitch, we were happy to stand off and we decreased the press to a 2 or 3. Just let them knock it about and see what they could do.

Now to the 2nd 18 yard box.  
We were mildly happy to let them have the ball wide and we were in a 5-7 press in those areas. But as soon as the ball came central, inside that 2nd 18 yard box, we became ANIMALS. The press notched up to a 10, and again it was done in packs. We were animals hunting their prey.

The 2nd half in particular, as soon as they had the ball central, in that 18-36 yard space, we were on it, it was all systems go, we hunted them down and smashed them. We won the ball so many times in those areas or we forced them back with intensity. Our tackling in these areas was RABID!! It was determined, it was intense. It was aggressive. We were basically repelling them in these areas and it prevented them getting the ball into our box. 
 

But again, if it went outside of the 2nd 18 yard box, we decreased the intensity again. And then upped it again in this area. 
 

So, that’s what I meant by the “well coached” comment. It wasn’t a dig at the previous manager either. It was simply what I noticed as a very different thing to what we’ve done before. 
The players had obviously been very well briefed on what to do and when, and by god, the intensity and aggression when we did it was amazing. 
 

I was absolutely loving it. Pretty football is one thing, but oh my days, that 2nd half pressing regime had me purring. It was beautiful. 

Edited December 27, 2023 by Harry

[Kid in the Riot]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Several.  Not always about the result either.

If I look at this season, the draw at Hull, the win at Swansea stick in my mind, we ripped both teams apart at times.  I’m not allowed to use Plymouth, am I?

I also see lots of other things that give me good vibes….Vyner at Atkinson coming of age as a pair having needed “babysitting” by Atkinson and King last season.

Luton (h) and Cardiff (h) back to back last season.  West Brom (a), think it was a Sky match.

Lots of games with WSM.

Etc.

Thanks,Dave. I thought there may be others I'd forgotten but I think this affirms the view that there weren't many memorable or complete performances under Nige. 

I suspect in most fans eyes the performance at Hull for a draw will have already been eclipsed in the "memorable" stakes by the home win.

[W-S-M Seagull]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Yeah exactly.

Easy for some to discredit NP and encourage people to get behind the new manager, the latter we should do, if the past performances are downplayed by those with an agenda.

The main difference for me is that under Manning we have somehow managed to get luck back on our side which I thunk we can all agree we severely lacked under NP for whatever reason. Tens and tens of nailed on penalty shouts turned down for example. 

Edited December 27, 2023 by W-S-M Seagull

[redsquirrel]

8 hours ago, RedRoss said:

James on Twitter has uploaded the full game if anyone is interested.

 

thanks for that,thoroughly enjoyed it this afternoon, so pleasing to see the pressing continue in the last 20 mins rather than trying to hold on under the cosh

[Mr Popodopolous]

24 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

The main difference for me is that under Manning we have somehow managed to get luck back on our side which I thunk we can all agree we severely lacked under NP for whatever reason. Tens and tens of nailed on penalty shouts turned down for example. 

Tens and tens may be a bit much but we achieved as many in 6 weeks than we did in 30 months or so under NP!

Two own goals against higher quota than usual but then the whole general decisions were weird for a while..

*Hull player falls in instalments, penalty against.

*Sykes v Freeman, only Sykes red carded.

*Bennett kicks out, yellow only..when we were ahead and on top.

*Nothing for Norwood.

*WBA player on Boxing Day after they score heads against his own bar etc.

This year, was Dickie 2 yellows v Birmingham wholly sensible.

*3 goals disallowed at Swansea, we won anyway- Wells goal the Friday night at Hull a very late flag.

Some luck could have started to go our way a bit, maybe West Brom could have had a penalty at AG in September and maybe QPR likewise but we are due plenty still!

Edited December 27, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[RedRoss]

23 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

The main difference for me is that under Manning we have somehow managed to get luck back on our side which I thunk we can all agree we severely lacked under NP for whatever reason. Tens and tens of nailed on penalty shouts turned down for example. 

Now it's just luck..

[Mr Popodopolous]

One that surprises me a bit was that the Bannan red card v us was overturned.

If someone could rationalise that.

[Mr Popodopolous]

7 minutes ago, RedRoss said:

Now it's just luck..

Can't speak for WSM but some of the penalties although penalties were of a similar threshold to if not softer than many that were not awarded in our favour.

By which I mean, if our penalties in recent weeks were then so were the ones for Scott I think it was v QPR, Nottingham Forest, the one in 2022-23 with the head high boot v Watford.

Blackburn was another penalty we probably should've had in January, Man City in the Cup felt nailed on.

2 or e Swansea in the Cup at the start of 2023.

Edited December 27, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

 

31 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Thanks,Dave. I thought there may be others I'd forgotten but I think this affirms the view that there weren't many memorable or complete performances under Nige. 

I suspect in most fans eyes the performance at Hull for a draw will have already been eclipsed in the "memorable" stakes by the home win.

If you want me to list all of them, I’ll go back through each game!  I just gave you some examples, it wasn’t a definitive list, hence the “etc”.

I’m not “most fans” (not sure if that’s good or bad )…Your view of memorable and mine are likely to be different.  Some of my reasons for games being memorable (like that Swansea home game) are because I saw a culmination of man-management and coaching that benefitted us longer term.

[Kid in the Riot]

11 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 

If you want me to list all of them, I’ll go back through each game!  I just gave you some examples, it wasn’t a definitive list, hence the “etc”.

I’m not “most fans” (not sure if that’s good or bad )…Your view of memorable and mine are likely to be different.  Some of my reasons for games being memorable (like that Swansea home game) are because I saw a culmination of man-management and coaching that benefitted us longer term.

Yes, maybe I should have been more specific and said performance and result. I think for a game to be memorable in a favourable way at this level, there has to be a win. 

Maybe what I'm trying to get at in a roundabout way is that Nige's legacy might be more about what he did off the pitch (for which we should be very grateful), rather than on it. I guess time will tell.

[bcfc01]

2 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Yes, maybe I should have been more specific and said performance and result. I think for a game to be memorable in a favourable way at this level, there has to be a win. 

Maybe what I'm trying to get at in a roundabout way is that Nige's legacy might be more about what he did off the pitch (for which we should be very grateful), rather than on it. I guess time will tell.

Exactly how I see it.