Watford away match thread

[Kid in the Riot]

11 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 

If you want me to list all of them, I’ll go back through each game!  I just gave you some examples, it wasn’t a definitive list, hence the “etc”.

I’m not “most fans” (not sure if that’s good or bad )…Your view of memorable and mine are likely to be different.  Some of my reasons for games being memorable (like that Swansea home game) are because I saw a culmination of man-management and coaching that benefitted us longer term.

Yes, maybe I should have been more specific and said performance and result. I think for a game to be memorable in a favourable way at this level, there has to be a win. 

Maybe what I'm trying to get at in a roundabout way is that Nige's legacy might be more about what he did off the pitch (for which we should be very grateful), rather than on it. I guess time will tell.

[bcfc01]

2 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Yes, maybe I should have been more specific and said performance and result. I think for a game to be memorable in a favourable way at this level, there has to be a win. 

Maybe what I'm trying to get at in a roundabout way is that Nige's legacy might be more about what he did off the pitch (for which we should be very grateful), rather than on it. I guess time will tell.

Exactly how I see it.

 

[Davefevs]

@Harry thanks.

Yes, completely get your “2nd 18 yard box.  I imagine this is what your envisioned?

You may recall I posted in the week about the better execution of the press when the opponents plays inside.  That’s the time to “hunt”.  The square ball can be dangerous, can be picked off.  I remember Alex Scott doing it at Boro (a) last season, when Hackney played square.  A deliberate trigger, and Scott sent Weimann away to score.

You may also recall that when I did my Oxford analysis (after yours) I highlighted that Oxford didn’t “high-press” but they executed well / efficiently when they did trigger.  Press has been a bit mixed until Hull City.  Here’s some notes I took from Manning pre-Sunderland (after Blackburn):

The first bit is what we are starting to see happen.  We didn’t see it in the Sunderland game that came straight after that “presser”.  If it becomes the new-norm I’ll be happy.

As with all these things opposition game plans may disrupt, e.g. will Brum just go “over it” on Friday in their attempt to negate it?  Game-state too.  Second half, there was no need to chase, we knew we could win it when we needed to and pick them off at will.

Theres been so many little things to observe.  Some are extensions of what we were doing, some are a bit new.

 

 

 

Edited December 27, 2023 by Davefevs

[W-S-M Seagull]

34 minutes ago, RedRoss said:

Now it's just luck..

Don't twist words mate. 

[johnheadbcfc]

17 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Yes, maybe I should have been more specific and said performance and result. I think for a game to be memorable in a favourable way at this level, there has to be a win. 

Maybe what I'm trying to get at in a roundabout way is that Nige's legacy might be more about what he did off the pitch (for which we should be very grateful), rather than on it. I guess time will tell.

Exactly this

[Davefevs]

20 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Yes, maybe I should have been more specific and said performance and result. I think for a game to be memorable in a favourable way at this level, there has to be a win. 

Maybe what I'm trying to get at in a roundabout way is that Nige's legacy might be more about what he did off the pitch (for which we should be very grateful), rather than on it. I guess time will tell.

I disagree, but I’ll live with it!

It’s a funny one, because all those “off the pitch” things - finances, culture, academy opportunity, more senior player development (eg Vyner), etc, ultimately culminates in what we then see “on the pitch”, which was finally an identity.  A small group of similar(ish) ability players (bar Scott and Semenyo) prepared to play for each other, that in some ways was beginning to evolve into something better that the sum of the individual parts. 

I enjoyed what I saw on the pitch.  I get why others didn’t though.

I think Manning is a good appointment as a successor to what Nige built.  Harry and I have been chatting pretty positively about him.

[johnheadbcfc]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I disagree, but I’ll live with it!

It’s a funny one, because all those “off the pitch” things - finances, culture, academy opportunity, more senior player development (eg Vyner), etc, ultimately culminates in what we then see “on the pitch”, which was finally an identity.  A small group of similar(ish) ability players (bar Scott and Semenyo) prepared to play for each other, that in some ways was beginning to evolve into something better that the sum of the individual parts. 

I enjoyed what I saw on the pitch.  I get why others didn’t though.

I think Manning is a good appointment as a successor to what Nige built.  Harry and I have been chatting pretty positively about him.

For me I will look back on pearsons reign positively, not only was a wage structure put in place but also gave this club a backbone again. I feel like the days of signing players like Chris brunt are gone for good.

[Kid in the Riot]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

I disagree, but I’ll live with it!

It’s a funny one, because all those “off the pitch” things - finances, culture, academy opportunity, more senior player development (eg Vyner), etc, ultimately culminates in what we then see “on the pitch”, which was finally an identity.  A small group of similar(ish) ability players (bar Scott and Semenyo) prepared to play for each other, that in some ways was beginning to evolve into something better that the sum of the individual parts. 

I enjoyed what I saw on the pitch.  I get why others didn’t though.

I think Manning is a good appointment as a successor to what Nige built.  Harry and I have been chatting pretty positively about him.

I don't disagree on the identity point. He did benefit, and use wisely, some outstanding talent in Semenyo and Scott - they may go onto be a couple of the best players we've had in a generation. 

On the pitch I felt we saw some really good 45 minutes on occasion but very few complete performances. 

I found his comment early doors that he might not be the one to take us further (finish the job) odd? Can't work out if it was expectation management, or a recognition of his limitations? I kinda assume the former, but interested in yours and others views...

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, Kid in the Riot said:

I don't disagree on the identity point. He did benefit, and use wisely, some outstanding talent in Semenyo and Scott - they may go onto be a couple of the best players we've had in a generation. 

On the pitch I felt we saw some really good 45 minutes on occasion but very few complete performances. 

I found his comment early doors that he might not be the one to take us further (finish the job) odd? Can't work out if it was expectation management, or a recognition of his limitations? I kinda assume the former, but interested in yours and others views...

I guess (and it is a guess) that he found the club to be a bigger mess and a more difficult and therefore more time consuming job to turn around.

I think throughout he knew that in a results business he might not get that time.

This summer I think he really thought he was turning the corner.  When I met Rennie, the enthusiasm for the season ahead was apparent.

And if we go back to Leicester, and in particular the fact that Ranieri achieved the ultimate success, maybe it was just a reflection on how football can turn out.  You don’t always get the rewards.

[Kid in the Riot]

23 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I guess (and it is a guess) that he found the club to be a bigger mess and a more difficult and therefore more time consuming job to turn around.

I think throughout he knew that in a results business he might not get that time.

This summer I think he really thought he was turning the corner.  When I met Rennie, the enthusiasm for the season ahead was apparent.

And if we go back to Leicester, and in particular the fact that Ranieri achieved the ultimate success, maybe it was just a reflection on how football can turn out.  You don’t always get the rewards.

Fair points. My concern would be as Rennie and all the coaching staff have left, are any of the building blocks Nige left still there?? 

Attitude, identity can remain, but many of the personnel have gone.

[City Rocker]

36 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

I found his comment early doors that he might not be the one to take us further (finish the job) odd? Can't work out if it was expectation management, or a recognition of his limitations? I kinda assume the former, but interested in yours and others views...

I saw it at the time as a hint that he didn't expect the club to keep him on longterm. Relationship issues. 

I honestly doubt Nige was anywhere near as upset as we all were when the inevitable split came - he'd been through the same thing before, several times of course, the big golden pay-off probably making it a lot less painful for him than us! 

[Davefevs]

13 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Fair points. My concern would be as Rennie and all the coaching staff have left, are any of the building blocks Nige left still there?? 

Attitude, identity can remain, but many of the personnel have gone.

That is something we are gonna have to wait to see whether it impacts or not.

There will probably be tell-tale signs. Jan recruitment for example. Will that follow the same plan / approach, or will it be completely different?

It’s fine taking on a well formed strategy. Knowing what to do when you hit your first hurdle is a different matter.

In some respects, Manning’s time in the CFG might mean he has a better understanding of the needs of getting to the premier league than his bosses, and it might be him stopping them going off-piste. 

[ExiledAjax]

8 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

I found his comment early doors that he might not be the one to take us further (finish the job) odd? Can't work out if it was expectation management, or a recognition of his limitations? I kinda assume the former, but interested in yours and others views...

I suspect he knew early doors that he was going to find it tricky to get along with our hierarchy in the long term. He knows his own history with difficult owners, and he knows his own personality. He may have even had it made clear in his interviews that his era was finite in time.

7 hours ago, Davefevs said:

That is something we are gonna have to wait to see whether it impacts or not.

The most likely is that elements of Pearson's culture/identity will remain in the short term, and overtime they will fade and morph into Manning's culture/identity. We saw that with the L1 winning squad. As staff and players left so the culture shifted and morphed - ultimately changing into the culture that Pearson had to fix.

We'll see that now. Echoes of Pearson will remain, then as James, King, Wells and others retire or otherwise leave, those echoes become ghosts and then finally fade completely. With them goes that culture and identity.

It's natural and inevitable.

7 hours ago, Davefevs said:

In some respects, Manning’s time in the CFG might mean he has a better understanding of the needs of getting to the premier league than his bosses, and it might be him stopping them going off-piste. 

I'm not sure about this. The proximity of the rest of the CFG to Man City has been lessened by Pep. He's reportedly not a big fan of the MCO model and basically ignores the other CFG clubs. I suspect there was a fairly nominal level of contact between NY City and Man City during Manning's time with CFG.

Edited December 28, 2023 by ExiledAjax

[redsquirrel]

10 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

I don't disagree on the identity point. He did benefit, and use wisely, some outstanding talent in Semenyo and Scott - they may go onto be a couple of the best players we've had in a generation. 

On the pitch I felt we saw some really good 45 minutes on occasion but very few complete performances. 

I found his comment early doors that he might not be the one to take us further (finish the job) odd? Can't work out if it was expectation management, or a recognition of his limitations? I kinda assume the former, but interested in yours and others views...

first off i thought maybe he wanted a bit of time off after this contract but as the games went on,the comments got a bit more spikey so you knew something wasnt right higher up

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

The most likely is that elements of Pearson's culture/identity will remain in the short term, and overtime they will fade and morph into Manning's culture/identity. We saw that with the L1 winning squad. As staff and players left so the culture shifted and morphed - ultimately changing into the culture that Pearson had to fix.

My “Back to the future” analogy…as each Promotion winning player left, the Marty McFly’s photo faded that bit more!

2 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

We'll see that now. Echoes of Pearson will remain, then as James, King, Wells and others retire or otherwise leave, those echoes become ghosts and then finally fade completely. With them goes that culture and identity.

I think I’m looking forward to seeing how we recruit going forward.  Recruitment starts with clarity of what you need, and from reading stuff about Nige when he arrived here, it was something he brought to us.  It took time for the Recruitment Team to tune in to that, but I do feel they have (as a team) improved.  We will get our first taste next month.

2 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

I'm not sure about this. The proximity of the rest of the CFG to Man City has been lessened by Pep. He's reportedly not a big fan of the MCO model and basically ignores the other CFG clubs. I suspect there was a fairly nominal level of contact between NY City and Man City during Manning's time with CFG.

Well there you go, that’ll teach me to put two and two together and try to find positive rationale!

[Sheltons Army]

14 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I disagree, but I’ll live with it!

It’s a funny one, because all those “off the pitch” things - finances, culture, academy opportunity, more senior player development (eg Vyner), etc, ultimately culminates in what we then see “on the pitch”, which was finally an identity.  A small group of similar(ish) ability players (bar Scott and Semenyo) prepared to play for each other, that in some ways was beginning to evolve into something better that the sum of the individual parts. 

I enjoyed what I saw on the pitch.  I get why others didn’t though.

I think Manning is a good appointment as a successor to what Nige built.  Harry and I have been chatting pretty positively about him.

Found what you said on FBC Pod,  interesting Dave , about Rennie working with Anis on his body shape and game 

It appears from all the clues that Rennie is not only a good bloke , but a real professional and a vital right hand man to NP , and , is perhaps the hardest role to fill

Hogg seems to have a bright , likeable personality and probably key in that

And important for/ to LM 

 

Having seen the relatively small sample of games I’m interested and also looking to the analyst / Coach , can’t recall his name , which is poor , because I would suggest there are signs that are a clear indicator of his input and effect.

Signs of general day to day drill coaching work , and signs of some good analytical input (IMHO) ... early days ... but very interesting and encouraging 

Edited December 28, 2023 by Sheltons Army

[And Its Smith]

On 26/12/2023 at 18:25, Davefevs said:

Ta, I’m sure it’ll get mentioned tomorrow…I’m on FBC.

Manning has said that the deal for TGH is not done so Ian has got that one wrong, as I think most will have suspected. 

[BCFC1959]

On 26/12/2023 at 23:55, Harry said:

We saw a very well coached team today. 
 

So how well coached do you think we were today and on Friday?

[Harry]

13 minutes ago, BCFC1959 said:

So how well coached do you think we were today and on Friday?

Bit petty isn’t it. 
Nice one handsome 

[BCFC1959]

1 hour ago, Harry said:

Bit petty isn’t it. 
Nice one handsome 

Wasn't meant to be petty - just a bit of frustration on my part - so apologies

 

[Harry]

5 minutes ago, BCFC1959 said:

Wasn't meant to be petty - just a bit of frustration on my part - so apologies

 

No worries. 
For the record though, I did post half way down page 29 on this thread as to the reason why I commented about the coaching. It was to do with how the press was managed. And I thought that was the best example I’d seen of a successful press by a City team in a very long time. 
 

I do agree with you that today was shit. 

Edited January 1 by Harry

[BCFC1959]

1 minute ago, Harry said:

No worries. 
For the record though, I did post half way down page 29 on this thread as to the reason why I commented about the coaching. It was to do with how the press was managed. And I thought that was the best example I’d seen of a successful press by a City team in a very long time. 
 

I do agree with you that today was shit. 

Agreed - and it was shit today - thanks for accepting my apology!