Watford away match thread

[Mr Popodopolous]

5 minutes ago, BrizzleRed said:

Spot on!  

Although we’ve pretty much reverted back to an NP style counter attacking game, we definitely appear quicker and more incisive in attack and it’s made us more exciting to watch and is putting opposition defenses under increased pressure (reason for the penalties?)  

Completely agree re Mehmeti.  He is the biggest and most surprising change since Manning’s arrival, so LM can to take full credit for that.  Will be interesting to see if he can transform any others, given more time.

Certainly starting to see more reasons for optimism now, so let’s hope we don’t just do the Bristol City thing and **** it all up!

To me it feels NPesque but with some tweaks.

Such as Mehmeti, perhaps Knight pushed higher forward. The odd tweak here and there, do we shoot a bit more readily.

Less injuries helps too.

[red panda]

33 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

I mean, all the evidence is on my posting history about my concerns of his playing style...

[Tim Monaghan]

1 minute ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Manning ball is defined by LM saying "if the other team don't have the ball they can't score" that's what he initially tried to do here. 

He also likes a 3 at the back formation. 

We don't have the type of players needed to control possession and as he found out, Ashton Gate doesn't have the patience for that type of football. 

We've gone back to our strengths which is a team that plays on the transitions. That's the style that we do have the players for. 

Thanks for that.

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on that, and that's okay. 

I didn't see a lot of transitional play at all with Pearsons style. In fact, we tended to bypass midfield completely. Under Pearson I saw it much more (and bear with me but I'll do a longer post on this tomorrow) as much more of a counter attacking style. Mannings is way more front foot and higher press. 

 

[REDOXO]

53 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Manning ball is defined by LM saying "if the other team don't have the ball they can't score" that's what he initially tried to do here. 

He also likes a 3 at the back formation. 

We don't have the type of players needed to control possession and as he found out, Ashton Gate doesn't have the patience for that type of football. 

We've gone back to our strengths which is a team that plays on the transitions. That's the style that we do have the players for. 

Yes. I think that was what I said. However what is very obvious is we do move between 3/4/5 at the back nicely in and out of possession. In order to play ‘Manning ball’ that is essential!  

Mehmeti really is the key right now and long May that continue. The kid still makes some poor attacking decisions there was one glaring pass he didn’t make today, but if he did he would be at Bournemouth by now. 
 

I’m hoping he will have a field day at an out of confidence Birmingham defense on Friday!
 

 

Edited December 26, 2023 by REDOXO

[W-S-M Seagull]

1 minute ago, Ghost Rider said:

Thanks for that.

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on that, and that's okay. 

I didn't see a lot of transitional play at all with Pearsons style. In fact, we tended to bypass midfield completely. Under Pearson I saw it much more (and bear with me but I'll do a longer post on this tomorrow) as much more of a counter attacking style. Mannings is way more front foot and higher press. 

 

One of my concerns was that under NP we were very much a pressing team, that was our strength and initially we seemed to move away from that. We've now gone back to that which I'm delighted with. 

[TonyTonyTony]

Christ. Have a few weeks off

[Kibs]

Why are people reading so much into possession stats anyway, and assuming they KNOW Liam Mannings intention?

NP was quite happy not to have the ball, yet there were games when we had more possession than the opposition- and LOST!!!

We suddenly have slightly less possession against 2 good teams, which was expected for me, but we’ve apparently now abandoned “Manning ball” and reverted to how we used to play!?? So have improved???

Or is it possible Manning takes it a game at a time? 

Or that the players are now carrying out his instructions more accurately?

Or that there’s two teams which dictate how a game goes, not one!!! 

Or that Manning has made adjustments due to what he’s learned over the last few weeks!?

Any of the above could be true.

Can we please stop with the tiresome comparisons which are based only on prejudice, and best guess!!?

[REDOXO]

8 minutes ago, TonyTonyTony said:

Christ. Have a few weeks off

A recommendation that applies to many many many others!

[BrizzleRed]

19 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

To me it feels NPesque but with some tweaks.

Such as Mehmeti, perhaps Knight pushed higher forward. The odd tweak here and there, do we shoot a bit more readily.

Less injuries helps too.

Yep, our shots per game count has certainly risen significantly for sure.  

Maybe LP has just given the playes a bit more freedom to shoot when they feel it’s worth a go.  That was a bit of a frustration under NP, as it often seemed like we wanted to practically walk the ball into the net.

That alone has raised the entertainment level for me.

[Kibs]

15 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

One of my concerns was that under NP we were very much a pressing team, that was our strength and initially we seemed to move away from that. We've now gone back to that which I'm delighted with. 

[BCFC Rich]

56 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Manningball such as it is atm seems more varied and adaptable than his first few games.

I think LM pretty much said that's what it would be like -  having a general style of play, but also coaching the players with different options and letting them problem-solve to work out what is working and not working once on the pitch. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

9 minutes ago, BCFC Rich said:

I think LM pretty much said that's what it would be like -  having a general style of play, but also coaching the players with different options and letting them problem-solve to work out what is working and not working once on the pitch. 

Agreed although there seem to be subtle tweaks, and less possession possession possession ie v Norwich, Huddersfield.

Not sure what Blackburn was tbh! We had a good first 20 mins and rallied well in the last 25-30.

Of course there are many variables at play.

Edited December 26, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[jbcfc]

3 hours ago, littlered said:

Original video was deleted but someone has the clip saved

 

 

my account - noticed they’d deleted and immediately grabbed the clip while i still could. i love it - shows a mentality that doesn’t get caught up on short term success and the importance of the long term goal.

first time winning 3 in a row in over 3 years gives us the right to get carried away, but we need the players and staff to keep going game by game.

huge january coming up. let’s have a real go at it - it’s been a while.

[jbcfc]

3 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I have RTV sub, but watched the first 44 mins on soccer 10 stream - as I like to hear what the opposition commentators make of us.

anything is better than downsy and toby osborne to be fair!

[Edgy Red]

Nige stabilised the ship but the style of football for the last 3 years has been largely poor and pretty negative in the main.

Who knows where we will end up with Manning, but if we finish mid table again but the football is more entertaining, then i will be happy.

Personally, i wasn't seeing any evolution in the way we played under Nige, but if others were, then i respect their opinions.

Lets all get behind the boys for the 2nd half of the season and see where we end up.

[Bristol Rob]

1 minute ago, jbcfc said:

my account - noticed they’d deleted and immediately grabbed the clip while i still could. i love it - shows a mentality that doesn’t get caught up on short term success and the importance of the long term goal.

first time winning 3 in a row in over 3 years gives us the right to get carried away, but we need the players and staff to keep going game by game.

huge january coming up. let’s have a real go at it - it’s been a while.

So, Jacob.

Question I've been meaning to ask for a while....

What does the J in @jbcfc stand for? Is it Jordan, after the time under Joe, or maybe Jacki, or could it be former keeper James?

Jacob. Put me out of this flux of curiosity.

[CardiffRed]

Just now, Edgy Red said:

Nige stabilised the ship but the style of football for the last 3 years has been largely poor and pretty negative in the main.

Who knows where we will end up with Manning, but if we finish mid table again but the football is more entertaining, then i will be happy.

Personally, i wasn't seeing any evolution in the way we played under Nige, but if others were, then i respect their opinions.

Lets all get behind the boys for the 2nd half of the season and see where we end up.

Nige did a great Job in stabilising the club - LM you can see is a modern coach, the players are clearly enjoying it.

[Tim Monaghan]

10 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

One of my concerns was that under NP we were very much a pressing team, that was our strength and initially we seemed to move away from that. We've now gone back to that which I'm delighted with. 

But that contradicts what you said about not liking his style of play at MK as that's exactly how he played. LM has always stressed the importance of being unpredictable when breaking through the opposition's defensive lines. He's outlined this before and we've finally seen it come to fruition.  What we've seen from the team is them creating numerical advantage by shaping a three-player backline to build play. Once past this line, there we are definitely creating more than we were under NP. As you would have seen, the ball almost always now starts with Max, rather than a long GK.  After bypassing the opposition's first line (Forwards), we then try to create 3v2 situations against their wide midfielder and full-back (2v 1 further down the at final line stage). If you notice, we continuously rotate here to become a little less "predictable". When sides have noticed us doing this, gaps have appeared centrally. Again, we've then move to exploit these centrally on a quick switch which we saw to good effect today with balls between the lines. 

It's the same as he played at MK and not how NP played. 

That's how I see it. Interesting debate though. 

 

[CardiffRed]

1 minute ago, Ghost Rider said:

But that contradicts what you said about not liking his style of play at MK as that's exactly how he played. LM has always stressed the importance of being unpredictable when breaking through the opposition's defensive lines. He's outlined this before and we've finally seen it come to fruition.  What we've seen from the team is them creating numerical advantage by shaping a three-player backline to build play. Once past this line, there we are definitely creating more than we were under NP. As you would have seen, the ball almost always now starts with Max, rather than a long GK.  After bypassing the opposition's first line (Forwards), we then try to create 3v2 situations against their wide midfielder and full-back (2v 1 further down the at final line stage). If you notice, we continuously rotate here to become a little less "predictable". When sides have noticed us doing this, gaps have appeared centrally. Again, we've then move to exploit these centrally on a quick switch which we saw to good effect today with balls between the lines. 

It's the same as he played at MK and not how NP played. 

That's how I see it. Interesting debate though. 

 

LM is currently doing what NP couldn’t - getting the best out of a group of players, to think this isn’t even his side makes it more impressive. Very impressed. 

[archie andrews]

21 minutes ago, Kibs said:

Why are people reading so much into possession stats anyway, and assuming they KNOW Liam Mannings intention?

NP was quite happy not to have the ball, yet there were games when we had more possession than the opposition- and LOST!!!

We suddenly have slightly less possession against 2 good teams, which was expected for me, but we’ve apparently now abandoned “Manning ball” and reverted to how we used to play!?? So have improved???

Or is it possible Manning takes it a game at a time? 

Or that the players are now carrying out his instructions more accurately?

Or that there’s two teams which dictate how a game goes, not one!!! 

Or that Manning has made adjustments due to what he’s learned over the last few weeks!?

Any of the above could be true.

Can we please stop with the tiresome comparisons which are based only on prejudice, and best guess!!?

or could it be rosemary the telephone operator?......

[Bristol Rob]

2 minutes ago, archie andrews said:

or could it be rosemary the telephone operator?......

Or spot, the cat.

[jbcfc]

8 minutes ago, Bristol Rob said:

So, Jacob.

Question I've been meaning to ask for a while....

What does the J in @jbcfc stand for? Is it Jordan, after the time under Joe, or maybe Jacki, or could it be former keeper James?

Jacob. Put me out of this flux of curiosity.

hi rob,

joe and jacki would be great reasons. although i don’t know much about our time under joe jordan. james… not so much.

it’s just a short form of my name - sorry to disappoint!

[Bristol Rob]

1 minute ago, jbcfc said:

hi rob,

joe and jacki would be great reasons. although i don’t know much about our time under joe jordan. james… not so much.

it’s just a short form of my name - sorry to disappoint!

I'd have NEVER have guessed!

(Will go and give you a follow)

[archie andrews]

13 minutes ago, Bristol Rob said:

Or spot, the cat.

or penry......the mild mannered janitor......

[Silvio Dante]

8 minutes ago, archie andrews said:

or penry......the mild mannered janitor......

@Davefevs. Every time this comes up I’m reminding you!

[Silvio Dante]

52 minutes ago, BCFC Rich said:

I think LM pretty much said that's what it would be like -  having a general style of play, but also coaching the players with different options and letting them problem-solve to work out what is working and not working once on the pitch. 

I’ve got a two way split on this. I broadly agree with the logic behind it (IIRC Liam said the players can’t hear him so he had to trust them), but it is also an easy excuse - I told them what to do guv and they didn’t. I firmly believe a manager/coach earns his corn in the heat of a game and an issue Liam had at the start of his time here is that he didn’t.

So broadly yeah I’m with this but I think as with so many things the nuance is different.

[cotswoldred2]

Blimey am I glad I was in the Manning camp from day one. Still the nay sayers are trying to figure out a strategy in wiping egg off faces. Quoting it's good but just really Pearson's system that see us winning these games. But of course it's not just systems its belief as a Team, and that is the difference in Manning and Pearson.

[Harry]

3 hours ago, One Team said:

I heard it different and as “they don’t ******* bounce when we’re losing”. Happy if it’s your perception though!

It’s 100% “I’ll effing bounce when we do something”. 
 

Which is a great message.

[Bristol Rob]

14 minutes ago, Harry said:

It’s 100% “I’ll effing bounce when we do something”. 
 

Which is a great message.

If Cole Skuse got a double hattrick against the Fewers, you'd still not bounce.

YOU WRONG 'UN.

[BrizzleRed]

22 minutes ago, cotswoldred2 said:

Blimey am I glad I was in the Manning camp from day one. Still the nay sayers are trying to figure out a strategy in wiping egg off faces. Quoting it's good but just really Pearson's system that see us winning these games. But of course it's not just systems its belief as a Team, and that is the difference in Manning and Pearson.

I strongly suspect you seeing conflict, when there actually isn’t any.  

Have you ever considered that anyone mentioning playing a Pearson like system aren’t trying to pull LM down or wipe egg off their face?  

To me, it seems very much like an acceptance that our players aren’t suited to his original tactics, but now he’s moved closer to the style they’re used to, performance levels have risen accordingly.  I reckon that actually enhances LM’s coaching and tactical credentials, as it proves he has flexibility, which is great for us.

If you want to see all this in a negative light, that’s up to you but imho, I can’t see it myself.