Guardiola Ball is NOT the Way

[JoeAman08]

7 minutes ago, Scrumpys Dietary Advisor.. said:

My concern is the style if football we are playing and particularly the impact it has on our crowd. Bore everyone stupid and they'll think twice about coming back 

The problem with this is it completely disregards Millwall. Pretty much 541 and happy to draw 0-0 and have some set pieces with their giants all over the pitch.  
 

Also disregards a ref that let them be physical and go through the back of our players and get away with a number of pushes in the back. No problem with a ref interpreting the game that way.

 

We are not a physical side and you can argue we could use a few more bigger lads. However, we don’t have them and especially up front. We also lack pace in general. To put this all on a style of play is ridiculous. This would look a lot better with Southampton’s or Leeds players. Truth is we just don’t have anyone exceptional up front. Hopefully this is addressed in January. One player of a higher level will make it easier for what we have in the squad already. 

[sh1t_ref_again]

28 minutes ago, Scrumpys Dietary Advisor.. said:

My concern is the style if football we are playing and particularly the impact it has on our crowd. Bore everyone stupid and they'll think twice about coming back 

Or a bit of patience and accept we will not get it right every time, not sure you would have got much support after our last win, but a loss and the end of the world is nigh

[McNasty Filth]

1 hour ago, sh1t_ref_again said:

So you do not visit for months to comment after some good wins, but regurgitate something you posted in August when NP was in charge 

Love this post. In a nutshell it typifies the point that no matter how hard we try and rail against it, the fact is deep down we all have an agenda and it's so difficult to take a step back and reconsider what it is 'we are actually trying to say'.

I kind of agree with the og poster in many ways, but on the flip side, its a way to simplistic argument to take seriously tbh! Broad brush strokes come to mind.

Considering Manning claims to be such an anorak when it comes to research and delving into detail, he really should be looking at videos of how the team played when Conway and Wells were linking up across the front line, whether that was in the front three or two. Imo we played some of our best flowing and most threatening football. To keep playing Conway upfront on his own as a lone striker to me is complete madness and shows a real lack of experience on Mannings part....... but hey, that's my agenda :laugh:!!!!

[Fuber]

2 hours ago, Cowshed said:

Villa frequently will play a short passing possession game. They approached nearly 700 passes v Sheffield Utd. 

That's not exactly outside the norm for any team playing Seffiled United this season - but again also Villa have higher quality players and could break them down.

 Villa average midtable in every metric for touches. https://fbref.com/en/comps/9/possession/Premier-League-Stats - SHU bottom for possession with an average of 36%.

Possession is only slightly above division average. Explained by an equally slightly above average number of successful (%) take-ons.

As a comparison - West Ham in 6th average 41%.

When Villa are playing for a goal however - they tend to wing-play.  6th most crosses in the League. Added to which themselves and Wsst Ham are 4th and 2nd in the league for goals direct from counters.

To clarify, I'm not suggesting possession isn't useful, it is, especially at killing off games or tiring the opposition - but it depends on personnel and how its being used.

As an example- see if you can guess which two teams in the PLs match the image is from.

[Charlie BCFC]

5 hours ago, Fuber said:

You criticised SB for calling a dire performance dire and insinuated he was still drunk from NY - and said by return it was 'not great'.

It was a woeful performance up there with the S'OD era, was my point. To call his critique of today 'one of the weirdest posts on this forum' is some way off the mark.

Today was up there with the Barnsley game at AG back when Simpson and Downing took caretaker charge against Barnsley. For context in case people can't remember that far back - https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/12220056/bristol-city-0-1-barnsley-carlton-morris-fires-tykes-to-victory.

I criticised the poster because he went on absolute ramble around Guardiola had ruined football and was a fraud which of course is absolute rubbish. I said the performance wasn’t great, that’s not defending the performance. Anyone who went today would know that it was probably the worst performance of the Manning era 

[Charlie BCFC]

5 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

So what if ifs a NP side. His brief was to come in here and improve THIS squad of players. 

Now we suddenly need new players go make us better? Bs. 

Today was just as bad as the QPR game. You'd think they'd have learned something after 11 games? 

 

We have, hence why we won 3 wins on the bounce which Pearson has never done. 
 

 

[W-S-M Seagull]

1 hour ago, Charlie BCFC said:

We have, hence why we won 3 wins on the bounce which Pearson has never done. 
 

 

And what about all the shite inbetween? 

Bit of context required here. 

V Sunderland, backs to the wall win. 

V Hull, we were shite for 70 minutes. 

V Watford, best performance under Manning. 

Very much a case of the good, the bad and the ugly. Great to win 3 in a row but let's not pretend we showed real improvements in those games. A duck is a duck. 

Being critical, it should be 5 wins on the bounce as Brum and Millwall were there for the taking and we put it two performances with very little attacking threat. 

Why do you keep mentioning Pearson? 

[W-S-M Seagull]

7 hours ago, UncleRed said:

I’ve experienced Ashton gate multiple times when the atmosphere was worse than that today, and about the death of football people keep banging on about, that’s their opinion and not factual. I for one don’t find it boring watching the team I support live, playing that style. And I’m sure I’m not the only one.

 

I agree today was “shite”. But name me a team that has never played “shite”. And yes I did attend today, supporting the team no matter the circumstances.

I have too, Boro and Norwich was just as bad as today. 

It's becoming a bit of a theme for home games, wonder why...

7 hours ago, UncleRed said:

Or you just acknowledge it wasn’t the best and get on with it instead of crying about it like children.

So you are quite happy to share your opinions on a FORUM, but you do not believe others should do the same? 

7 hours ago, UncleRed said:

if only football was that easy aye. Like the fans who shout forward and moan whenever a pass goes sideways. If only people understand that the answer to winning at football consisted of just passing forwards every single time. Clowns.

Football has many variables game by game, not one fan has all the information at his disposal. So instead of questioning things you and we know nothing about, I say we just get on with “supporting” the club we all supposedly support.

Aha here we go again. You thinking you have the right to control what others say and if they say something you don't like, you insult them by calling them clowns. 

If someone is shouting forward what's that got to do with you? Stop crying about it like a child mate and accept that others are free to say what they like. Maybe they'd not shout forwards if we didn't keep passing it SIDEWAYS. 

7 hours ago, UncleRed said:

But I’m not an idiot and can admit the footballs been more entertaining to watch the last few weeks.

Has it? Really? When? Watford granted but when else? You can't just say something and then it's a fact, that's not how it works. 

Maybe you are entertained by watching the ball go sideways. The rest of us are bored shitless watching it. 

Edited January 2 by W-S-M Seagull

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Davefevs said:

You mean the bit where he said LM was wrong to pick x, pick y, pick z, but then said he accepted that LM needed to rotate and LM should’ve played Andy King or Jed Meerholz instead.  Was pure Patridge for me tonight.

I said pretty much, not all

[Sir Geoff]

11 hours ago, Bs4Red said:

I didn’t say anything about a rebuild. I think we need a CM and a striker. 
That was needed before manning, the rest I think will be fine. 
 

I don’t think Manning has set us up to be so slow on the ball today and negative. 
 

Personally think we will get there. It’s still early days 

So why didn't he change it from the touchline. Issue some instructions to move the ball quicker, change the shape, anything other than doing nothing.

[RollsRoyce]

Not sure why we are discussing Pep. That was not the vision that our Technical Director gave (Ex of X, previously known as Twitter, but now returned after 3 wins, but soon to disappear after 3 losses) on our in-house, pre-planned question interview. Not once did he state we are looking to be a high possession side, building from the back, Mr Tinnion stated that we are already playing, from youth to first team the football he has instilled as the core ethos of the club. And Pep style is not part of that. Far from it. 

Of course that does demand a subsequent question. Why then did he go out and contract a coach that does not play the type of football he described in the interview? It would be like putting Klopp in charge of Man City and Pep taking over at Liverpool.

You can only conclude our Technical director and owners have not got a clue what they are doing. 

[Fuber]

7 hours ago, Charlie BCFC said:

I criticised the poster because he went on absolute ramble around Guardiola had ruined football and was a fraud which of course is absolute rubbish. I said the performance wasn’t great, that’s not defending the performance. Anyone who went today would know that it was probably the worst performance of the Manning era 

Scrumps main point, to me, was the effort by clubs (and managers) attempting to emulate Guardiola as being a poor strategy, comparing it to the style yesterday, and that without tempo it means very little.

The Etihad comment is arguably wide of the mark, agreed - the PL as a whole has become more and more sterile.

The issue here is you just insulted the poster without any context. Then meaning you were criticised in turn as people thought the criticism of Scrumps post could be taken as a defence of the performance.

"Not Great" performance could still be interpreted as mediocre or OK, and it just wasn't - at least in my opinion, for clarity.

It was just very very poor against a mediocre Millwall side. Agree to disagree.

[Cowshed]

8 hours ago, Fuber said:

That's not exactly outside the norm for any team playing Seffiled United this season - but again also Villa have higher quality players and could break them down.

 Villa average midtable in every metric for touches. https://fbref.com/en/comps/9/possession/Premier-League-Stats - SHU bottom for possession with an average of 36%.

Possession is only slightly above division average. Explained by an equally slightly above average number of successful (%) take-ons.

As a comparison - West Ham in 6th average 41%.

When Villa are playing for a goal however - they tend to wing-play.  6th most crosses in the League. Added to which themselves and Wsst Ham are 4th and 2nd in the league for goals direct from counters.

To clarify, I'm not suggesting possession isn't useful, it is, especially at killing off games or tiring the opposition - but it depends on personnel and how its being used.

As an example- see if you can guess which two teams in the PLs match the image is from.

Vila, play through the thirds, from a base of possession. 

[Fuber]

1 minute ago, Cowshed said:

 

4 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Vila, play through the thirds, from a base of possession.

Correct that's its Villa, except they didn't win from a base of possession. They in fact had 46% of possession, against Man City, and regularly played on the break down the wings when Man City went to play inverted on the transition.

Man City had two shots on target. Despite having more of a ball - as Villa were more organised on closing quickly in their half man to man and turned them over, with pace.

Not saying, again, that you can't win with possession - but all it takes is one error with the ball and you can concede. At this level it's easier to force that single error than thread a perfect 30 yard through ball. You can worry about the former when you get to the Prem like Brighton and Bournemouth have done. As NP said, at this level it's fine margins working with what you have.

[Davefevs]

6 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

And what about all the shite inbetween? 

Bit of context required here. 

V Sunderland, backs to the wall win. 

V Hull, we were shite for 70 minutes. 

V Watford, best performance under Manning. 

Very much a case of the good, the bad and the ugly. Great to win 3 in a row but let's not pretend we showed real improvements in those games. A duck is a duck. 

Being critical, it should be 5 wins on the bounce as Brum and Millwall were there for the taking and we put it two performances with very little attacking threat. 

Why do you keep mentioning Pearson? 

I kinda agree.  (Totally disagree about Hull though)

I’m not that fussed about winning runs, losing runs, per se (except momentum +/-), whether we win more at home than away or vice-versa.

Ultimately we need to win more than we lose to move up the table.

Despite a good run, we are back at equal wins and losses.  That good run recovered us from a bad run where we slipped to less wins than losses.

We are witnessing a mid table squad showing all the inconsistent of a mid table squad.  We are seeing some positives against some opponents and some deficiencies against others.

I’m positive about Liam Manning, but I still think results won’t be much different under him.

You know I’m into data, and the only things that have materially changed are:

• patience in possession
• patience in the press (but good triggers)

Our attacking output - chances / shots / xG - has regressed slightly 

Our defensive output - has improved slightly.

Simplistic view of why - both our play and our opponents play is more structured.  Our patience in possession gives time to our opponents to get back into shape. And vice-versa.

Unless others have different definitions, it isn’t more attacking, more front foot.  It’s not creating more chances, nor better chances.

It’s still relatively early days.  We are about where we should be - 11th.  He needs the window to bolster us.

[Dr Balls]

Ever since we made it back into the Championship under Cotterill, we have struggled against teams that sit back, defend and gift us the majority of possession. That only changed more recently as Scott grew into that role of driving forward from midfield.

TGH is the next best thing that we currently have in the squad for that role, but if you don’t start him then we really struggle. And the statistics have been pretty damning for a long time - we are better without the ball I.e. we win more often when we have less of the possession, which was why we often did better against better teams and ended up drawing a blank against teams at the bottom who were scrapping for points. It also explains our years of poor home form and comparatively better away form.

Nige had us playing as a counter-attacking side because he realised that we were better suited to that approach. That requires pace up front, which is where Sykes, Bell, Weimann and Wells all fit in. And that’s also why Nige had targeted improving fitness levels pre-season.

Our good run at the beginning of last season was really with a counter-attacking style, with both Wells and Conway up front. But even then they needed someone playing through balls from midfield, and with the best will in the world that is not something any of us would describe as a strength of either James or Williams. So setting up with both of them in midfield yesterday was always likely to be pretty uninspiring.

There are some decent players in our squad who on their day can play as well as anyone in this division. The trick is how to fit them into a team and formation that maximises its positives and minimises its weaknesses. My understanding from how his teams played previously was that Manning was keen on quick transitions. That would suit most of our squad in a way that possession-based football would not. And he also really needs a “Plan B” when “Plan A” isn’t working. I don’t want the LJ “clubs in the bag” approach but having the option of a strong target man up front as an alternative would really help.

I accept that Manning has only had 11 games as Head Coach with our squad and at this level, but if he and his coaching team haven’t started to appreciate some of the issues that many of us can see then that would be worrying.

[Charlie BCFC]

6 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

And what about all the shite inbetween? 

Bit of context required here. 

V Sunderland, backs to the wall win. 

V Hull, we were shite for 70 minutes. 

V Watford, best performance under Manning. 

Very much a case of the good, the bad and the ugly. Great to win 3 in a row but let's not pretend we showed real improvements in those games. A duck is a duck. 

Being critical, it should be 5 wins on the bounce as Brum and Millwall were there for the taking and we put it two performances with very little attacking threat. 

Why do you keep mentioning Pearson? 

Sunderland for the first half I’d say it was even, but just before the goal we had a very good spell and it was coming. Second half backs to the wall as you said.

Hull I personally thought we played well most of the game, was just a period before half time where we switched off.

[Charlie BCFC]

10 hours ago, JoeAman08 said:

The problem with this is it completely disregards Millwall. Pretty much 541 and happy to draw 0-0 and have some set pieces with their giants all over the pitch.  
 

Also disregards a ref that let them be physical and go through the back of our players and get away with a number of pushes in the back. No problem with a ref interpreting the game that way.

 

We are not a physical side and you can argue we could use a few more bigger lads. However, we don’t have them and especially up front. We also lack pace in general. To put this all on a style of play is ridiculous. This would look a lot better with Southampton’s or Leeds players. Truth is we just don’t have anyone exceptional up front. Hopefully this is addressed in January. One player of a higher level will make it easier for what we have in the squad already. 

Really bugged me how Hutchinson finished the game without getting carded, good player don’t get me wrong but with the amount of fouls he made I’d like to see how good he was on a yellow

[JoeAman08]

13 minutes ago, Charlie BCFC said:

Really bugged me how Hutchinson finished the game without getting carded, good player don’t get me wrong but with the amount of fouls he made I’d like to see how good he was on a yellow

Yep ref let them play aggressively. I didn’t mind it too much but it suits them more than us for sure. He went through the back of Conway multiple times yesterday and I felt for TC a bit as not much more he can do. Would take a different type of forward to deal with that yesterday and we don’t have that in the squad. 

[Dr Balls]

3 minutes ago, JoeAman08 said:

Yep ref let them play aggressively. I didn’t mind it too much but it suits them more than us for sure. He went through the back of Conway multiple times yesterday and I felt for TC a bit as not much more he can do. Would take a different type of forward to deal with that yesterday and we don’t have that in the squad. 

Hate to say it but I don’t think Hutchinson would have been able to do that against Chris Martin. It’s his type of player that we have failed to replace.

[KingHillRed]

11 hours ago, Fpcity said:

But how many windows will it take to get a team that's capable of playing his way, especially as we don't splash the cash as we did in the LJ days.

I don't see anymore of our players going for big fees like the last 5 years so makes it harder unless it's frees or loans. 

Yeah I agree and I think we'll be in the loan market - not sure who our highest value player is now. Knight/Conway maybe? 

[JoeAman08]

3 minutes ago, Dr Balls said:

Hate to say it but I don’t think Hutchinson would have been able to do that against Chris Martin. It’s his type of player that we have failed to replace.

I agree but I still think CM’s time here had run its course. His replacement was Cornick which was more legs but less physical. It hasn’t worked out. I’m sure there are options out there that can combine a bit of both. Not even worried about goals from them if it means more space for others. But I have no examples of who we could sign

[Natchfever]

9 minutes ago, Dr Balls said:

Hate to say it but I don’t think Hutchinson would have been able to do that against Chris Martin. It’s his type of player that we have failed to replace.

Be interesting to see if Manning does look to bring in such a player, albeit with a tad more pace.

[RedRock]

Simples. Front-foot, attacking football is what we were promised and Manning wants to deliver that via a ‘Pep’ style of play.

If I have to watch 2 sideways passes at the back before we trigger a rapid transition through the lines to create a chance, then I’ll tolerate the sideways passes. 

If I have to watch sideways  ‘crab’ football with no end product, because no one off the ball moves, we have an inability to spot the free man, or just can’t execute an accurate, fast forward pass …. then bin that style of play. 

What we know from Manning’s first block of games is we don’t have the squad that can implement - at least consistently - his ‘Pep’ style of play. 

Nige was pragmatic - with our players and budget we couldn’t afford the type of player who can operate that ‘Pep’ style effectively, indeed, few can. He built a side of limited ability Championship players based on togetherness and hard work. 

We either invest in this window to get the quality ‘Pep’ style players or we build a team and playing style based on our players limited strengths. 

The choice is Jon and Tins in this window. 

 

[Cowshed]

1 hour ago, Fuber said:

Correct that's its Villa, except they didn't win from a base of possession. They in fact had 46% of possession, against Man City, and regularly played on the break down the wings when Man City went to play inverted on the transition.

Man City had two shots on target. Despite having more of a ball - as Villa were more organised on closing quickly in their half man to man and turned them over, with pace.

Not saying, again, that you can't win with possession - but all it takes is one error with the ball and you can concede. At this level it's easier to force that single error than thread a perfect 30 yard through ball. You can worry about the former when you get to the Prem like Brighton and Bournemouth have done. As NP said, at this level it's fine margins working with what you have.

Villa do play from a base of possession. The are consistently playing through the first two thirds of the pitch playing short to feet. A principle of Villas football is attempting to penetrate quickly in the final third from that base. This is possession football 

[Davefevs]

8 minutes ago, RedRock said:

Simples. Front-foot, attacking football is what we were promised and Manning wants to deliver that via a ‘Pep’ style of play.

If I have to watch 2 sideways passes at the back before we trigger a rapid transition through the lines to create a chance, then I’ll tolerate the sideways passes. 

If I have to watch sideways  ‘crab’ football with no end product, because no one off the ball moves, we have an inability to spot the free man, or just can’t execute an accurate, fast forward pass …. then bin that style of play. 

What we know from Manning’s first block of games is we don’t have the squad that can implement - at least consistently - his ‘Pep’ style of play. 

Nige was pragmatic - with our players and budget we couldn’t afford the type of player who can operate that ‘Pep’ style effectively, indeed, few can. He built a side of limited ability Championship players based on togetherness and hard work. 

We either invest in this window to get the quality ‘Pep’ style players or we build a team and playing style based on our players limited strengths. 

The choice is Jon and Tins in this window. 

 

Which to summarise, questions whether we brought in the right head-coach at this juncture.

Admittedly, that isn’t why I think personally, just trying to summarise your post.

[Cowshed]

21 minutes ago, RedRock said:

Simples. Front-foot, attacking football is what we were promised and Manning wants to deliver that via a ‘Pep’ style of play.

If I have to watch 2 sideways passes at the back before we trigger a rapid transition through the lines to create a chance, then I’ll tolerate the sideways passes. 

If I have to watch sideways  ‘crab’ football with no end product, because no one off the ball moves, we have an inability to spot the free man, or just can’t execute an accurate, fast forward pass …. then bin that style of play. 

What we know from Manning’s first block of games is we don’t have the squad that can implement - at least consistently - his ‘Pep’ style of play. 

Nige was pragmatic - with our players and budget we couldn’t afford the type of player who can operate that ‘Pep’ style effectively, indeed, few can. He built a side of limited ability Championship players based on togetherness and hard work. 

We either invest in this window to get the quality ‘Pep’ style players or we build a team and playing style based on our players limited strengths. 

The choice is Jon and Tins in this window. 

 

Front foot football is a meaningless description. Pep Guardiloa's teams sit on the opposition with possession, playing positionally dominating territory in numerical overloading units looking to switch and reset utilising width and depth. As the team plays in patterns using numerical overloads when the ball is lost this provides opportunity to counter press in numbers aggressively further up the pitch. The team dominates in and out of possession.

Is that front, or back foot football?    

Whats is this Manning Pep style of football? Pepe Guardiola doesn't have a style of football his team has an identity, clear playing principles, sub principles and a model of play. 

If Liam Manning  can take over a team mid season install an identity, principles of play and a new playing model around the team playing twice a week, and three times a week with limited training time (no pre season), and with a squad of limited ability in two months he will be a coach surpassing Guardiola's standard!

Edited January 2 by Cowshed

[RedRock]

4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Which to summarise, questions whether we brought in the right head-coach at this juncture.

Admittedly, that isn’t why I think personally, just trying to summarise your post.

Maybe Jon and Tins thought we had those players, Manning - based on his two matches against us when Oxford manager - had a similar view, but the majority of us fans and Nige knew we didn’t. 

Up to Jon and Tins now to salvage the situation by buying in the players that fit the ‘Pep’ system and for Manning and his coaches to try and develop some of our core players that have the potential to deliver his style. 

[Numero Uno]

6 minutes ago, RedRock said:

Up to Jon and Tins now to salvage the situation 

That's well and truly ****** it then............

[Davefevs]

Just now, RedRock said:

Maybe Jon and Tins thought we had those players, Manning - based on his two matches against us when Oxford manager - had a similar view, but the majority of us fans and Nige knew we didn’t. 

Up to Jon and Tins now to salvage the situation by buying in the players that fit the ‘Pep’ system and for Manning and his coaches to try and develop some of our core players that have the potential to deliver his style. 

My simple view is that in changing the way we play, some players will benefit, others won’t….and we end up on a similar state.  And the benefits aren’t huge enough, the downsides not damming enough.

At this point, it all feels a bit “samey”.

I can watch a match as a fan and see some good things, and also some not so good things.

It’s like a big set of levers, you pull one, it impacts another.

FWIW it’s kinda what I expected.

It’s why I’ve just sat on the fence and observed, whilst several have jumped up and down on whatever side they sit on, jumping to conclusion way too early.  I already knew of the strengths and weaknesses of the squad.  The task for Manning is to remove the weaknesses and add to the strengths.  I honestly don’t think that will be achieved by coaching….it needs investment in the squad, through top-class recruitment as well.