Possession football…

[Dr Balls]

Quick update to Manning. Unless you have parachute payments and far better players than everyone else, trying to play possession football in the Championship is a fool’s errand, if your aim is success. We will get nowhere playing that way against teams with budgets we can only dream of. Hence why Pearson set us up as a counter-attacking team. Firstly we aren’t going to have 60% possession against teams like Leeds. And most of that 60% possession being in our own half with our back line or goalkeeper is also zero threat. Hence the lack of goals. It was the wrong team, wrong formation and wrong tactics tonight. But will Manning learn? I hope so but I fear not.

[Fuber]

59 minutes ago, IAmNick said:

I don't think possession football is the problem, I think it's possession football with this group of players.

We saw the natural issue of Manning-ball with a Pearson squad, against a team who are extremely effective at denying time and space to their opponent. Our players wanted an extra second on the ball tonight they didn't have - and it's because they aren't players who have the qualities needed to play possession football. It's not their fault, that's not why they were brought here.

Really? Because the message from our board is otherwise.

[Frenchay Red]

40 minutes ago, formerly known as ivan said:

So why are we trying to play that way?

Odd isn't it. Over two games at the start of the season Pearson's teams put 9 past Manning ball's Oxford.

So he knew what our strengths were, or should have, when he took the job. 

[Tomo]

53 minutes ago, One Team said:

Who said on Radio Bristol it’s all about the summer now and planning for that. Great!

I heard that. A strong number 9 in the summer..he said it quite a few times

[Dr Balls]

1 minute ago, Tomo said:

I heard that. A strong number 9 in the summer..he said it quite a few times

What like Kieffer Moore (just gone to Ipswich) or Famara Diedhiou (just joined Cardiff)? You couldn’t make it up!

[Tomo]

2 minutes ago, Dr Balls said:

What like Kieffer Moore (just gone to Ipswich) or Famara Diedhiou (just joined Cardiff)? You couldn’t make it up!

Hilarious 

[Steve Watts]

1 hour ago, Shauntaylor85 said:

It’s Sean O’Driscoll, the press conferences are a similar bore but good to send you to sleep. 

Why was Nigel removed from the programme tonight? He was due to be on Sky? 

They're worse imho. SOD was at least an interesting read but certainly did not have a voice made for radio.

Manning on the other hand should come with a safety warning not to drive or operate heavy machinery whilst listening to him. His interviews are as exciting as his style of play.

[beaverface]

1 hour ago, One Team said:

Who said on Radio Bristol it’s all about the summer now and planning for that. Great!

So that'd 500quids worth of season tickets flushed down the drain for this season as we look to plan for the following season once again.

[W-S-M Seagull]

55 minutes ago, 38MC said:

No he didn’t. He might have played two forwards, but he did not play two up front; he did not change the formation; he just put a square peg in a round hole. 

It looked like a 3421 to me? 

Dickie - Vyner - Tanner

Pring - James - Williams - McCrorie 

Conway Knight

Wells ? 

[bearded_red]

Possession football is absolute fine, in fact I’d say it’s the ‘best’ way of playing if you have the players capable.

What is ******* terrible is attempting to play possession football at walking pace with players not suited to it. Absolute rubbish. Boring, vanilla, tepid.

If our current manager is such a great coach maybe he should get the best of the squad he’s been given rather than attempting to play the football he believes in with a squad that isn’t capable.

 

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, Red Skin said:

Manning tried 2 up front today which many have been calling.  Understandable given our goal drought. (I wasn't at Coventry to see how successful this was in that game).

In doing so we weakened the midfield and left gaps for a very good Leeds team to exploit.  Our defenders did seem to dwell too long on the ball and were robbed by very quick and switched on Leeds players.  Really frustrating, but in fairness there were probably less choices of players to play out to in midfield given the change in formation with 2 up front.  (It looked like they haven't done enough work playing with 2 up front). 

It's a dilemma.  Play one up front and create fewer chances but keep the game tighter and keep control, or play 2 up front and be overrun in midfield.

Once Wells went off and we reverted to the game plan the players are now more familiar with I thought we looked more solid, and indeed created our best chance for Mehmeti. (Thought he was a really good outlet when he came on).  

The majority of the players have transitioned well to play position football - has there been some collective amnesia that has completely forgotten now we played against West Ham and Forest? 

We do need some new players that are quicker in thought and action and we have addressed that with some of the signings.  Matt James has been great, but I felt it's this kind of game (and being a man down in midfield) that really showed his limitations. 

Usual reactionary nonsense on here.  Tonight's formation didn't work against a very good Leeds side, but on the whole I still feel we are progressing. 

He didn’t.  Others have pointed out.

Did you watch the game?  That’s not me trying to be rude, because the rest of your post is based on something that didn’t happen and creates an easy excuse for you that Manning tried something many have been asking for.  That just isn't what happened out there tonight.

We play exactly the same “system” as against Coventry, and Forest, and etc.

2 hours ago, Dr Balls said:

What like Kieffer Moore (just gone to Ipswich) or Famara Diedhiou (just joined Cardiff)? You couldn’t make it up!

No, that’s not the striker type Tinnion described.  He was very explicit to say a striker with:

• a physical presence
• has to be able to do the running part of the game (rules out the 2 above)
• 23/24 type age range
• good experience in terms of appearances

To me he was describing the search for a Semenyo / Ogbene type.

Edited February 3 by Davefevs

[Ivorguy]

7 hours ago, CityCiderEd said:

NPs had a highest win rate of 36% in his time here and that was never going to be enough for top 6

Yes, but given the players he had it was more than acceptable.  We are miles off having a top six team.  Manning is simply heading in wrong direction

[CityCiderEd]

55 minutes ago, Ivorguy said:

Yes, but given the players he had it was more than acceptable.  We are miles off having a top six team.  Manning is simply heading in wrong direction

I really don't disagree with you. We are where we are and sadly very little sign of things changing. 

Subs were needed at ht last night as we were being completely overrun in midfield. 

It shows our lack of depth and quality when we bring on Bell and Mehmeti to change a game.

There comes a time when you have to buy players for the here and now as there maybe a different sort of future that we planned.

[Major Isewater]

9 hours ago, CityCiderEd said:

NPs had a highest win rate of 36% in his time here and that was never going to be enough for top 6

With  a small  injury plagued squad and kids , depleted of his star players. 
Here we go again, the criticism is that NP did all that was demanded of him and when he’d done the dirty work he was ignominiously shown the door. 
He wasn’t perfect but he is a football man with experience and standing in the game. I have no doubt that if he was supported then we would be in or around the top six. 
Bitter ? Damn right I am. The club win the gold medal in shooting oneself in the foot. 
We have gone backwards and the football on show is a long way from being front foot, entertaining football. We had a sell out last night but people just didn’t turn up. 

[Sir Geoff]

10 hours ago, formerly known as ivan said:

Stop trying to play out from the back??? Are you joking??? Are you telling me you don’t enjoy seeing Vyner get the ball from MO’L, only for him to play a pass to the opposition 10 yards ahead of him?

Or run 10 yards forward with the ball, straight into a trap, lose the ball and watch as a quick turn over ensues.

[TheJudge07]

The sooner we get to 55 points the better.  Its been said already but you need to adapt your tactics to the players you have and coach them. You also have to accept when something isnt working. Manning seems devoid of these qualities and our form is relegation level.  433 or 4132 i think are better formations for us. We are far better with a back 4. The problem has long been in creating chances and scoring which has not been addressed in the transfer window. Manning has not improved our attacking play.

Edited February 3 by TheJudge07

[Sir Geoff]

2 hours ago, CityCiderEd said:

I really don't disagree with you. We are where we are and sadly very little sign of things changing. 

Subs were needed at ht last night as we were being completely overrun in midfield. 

It shows our lack of depth and quality when we bring on Bell and Mehmeti to change a game.

There comes a time when you have to buy players for the here and now as there maybe a different sort of future that we planned.

Personally think he should have changed at ht to 442. Take Tanner off, put Mcrorie at Rb, drop Knight back in to midfield and push Conway up alongside Wells. 

[petehinton]

7 hours ago, Davefevs said:

He didn’t.  Others have pointed out.

Did you watch the game?  That’s not me trying to be rude, because the rest of your post is based on something that didn’t happen and creates an easy excuse for you that Manning tried something many have been asking for.  That just isn't what happened out there tonight.

We play exactly the same “system” as against Coventry, and Forest, and etc.

No, that’s not the striker type Tinnion described.  He was very explicit to say a striker with:

• a physical presence
• has to be able to do the running part of the game (rules out the 2 above)
• 23/24 type age range
• good experience in terms of appearances

To me he was describing the search for a Semenyo / Ogbene type.

Jerry Yates here we gooooo

[Red Skin]

8 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Did you watch the game?  That’s not me trying to be rude, because the rest of your post is based on something that didn’t happen and creates an easy excuse for you that Manning tried something many have been asking for.  That just isn't what happened out there tonight.

I was there, but with Wells and Tommy starting perhaps my pre-match ritual influenced my perception iof what I witnessed on this occasion! 

 

[Silvio Dante]

1 minute ago, Red Skin said:

I was there, but with Wells and Tommy starting perhaps my pre-match ritual influenced my perception iof what I witnessed on this occasion! 

 

To be fair, I think the issue was way more than Wells and Tommy. We set up in a 3-4-2-1 formation. The 2, each playing a bit to one side, were Tommy and Knight. Tommy has played as a 10 historically (when he started he was the Weimann understudy) but he wasn’t in that position last night. Issue there with that 2(+1) is there isn’t really any creativity. So you go to the 4 - and issue there was that the wide 2 of those (Pring/McCrorie) are more defenders and also that Leeds press forced them deeper. Add in that the two central (James/Williams) aren’t the most creative and you get to a point of where any chance creation is going to come from, particularly in a more considered approach.

It wasn’t Wells and Tommy together, and how we set up made it nigh on impossible to succeed, but even if we had them as a 2, I’m not sure there was enough in the team to get them the ball without a change in approach.

[Gert Mare]

In simple terms possession football works if you are creative, quick and decisive in the final 3rd (We’re not). If you don’t have those 3 qualities then you’re clueless in front of a brick wall because you have allowed the opposition plenty of time to be in position at the back and you just end up passing along the 18 yard box and retreating or you simply fail to find your man in an overcrowded area (which we do a lot)

[Three Lions]

12 hours ago, IAmNick said:

I don't think possession football is the problem, I think it's possession football with this group of players.

We saw the natural issue of Manning-ball with a Pearson squad, against a team who are extremely effective at denying time and space to their opponent. Our players wanted an extra second on the ball tonight they didn't have - and it's because they aren't players who have the qualities needed to play possession football. It's not their fault, that's not why they were brought here.

 

12 hours ago, Cowshed said:

A point I have made at GK  CB  and CM the team needs players with key qualities on the ball.  The quality is they cant be be average on the ball, they have to be good enough to link up play, play simple quick early reset and switch and at times take possession in tight spaces and keep it. The team needs these leaders and cultural architects to meet the expectations and intent of the model CIty are playing to.

And these players are? 

 

Going to be a bumpy road when we have players a long way off it. Put them under pressure and the cracks showed and there wasn't players there good enough to keep showing for it (the ball) to take responsibility and leadership top take the pressure off players struggling. We want some captains of possession to lead the way and dont have them!!

[Red Skin]

43 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

To be fair, I think the issue was way more than Wells and Tommy. We set up in a 3-4-2-1 formation. The 2, each playing a bit to one side, were Tommy and Knight. Tommy has played as a 10 historically (when he started he was the Weimann understudy) but he wasn’t in that position last night. Issue there with that 2(+1) is there isn’t really any creativity. So you go to the 4 - and issue there was that the wide 2 of those (Pring/McCrorie) are more defenders and also that Leeds press forced them deeper. Add in that the two central (James/Williams) aren’t the most creative and you get to a point of where any chance creation is going to come from, particularly in a more considered approach.

It wasn’t Wells and Tommy together, and how we set up made it nigh on impossible to succeed, but even if we had them as a 2, I’m not sure there was enough in the team to get them the ball without a change in approach.

Ah.  As you will have gathered I'm generally supportive of LM (and any incumbent manager tbh) and if i am being generous I guess this was an attempt to get more finishers on the pitch.  Now I've been corrected on how we actually did set up, I understand the frustration of posters on here with LM's dogma.  Leeds were too quick over the pitch and in thought.  They look a promotion team.  And we were just poor in almost everything we did. 

I haven't seen us look so open and exposed as we did in that set up.  We looked much more solid after the changes and we did seem to have more time on the ball and keep it.  (More familiar 3-4-3 which they are more familiar with?  Did Leeds press just tire and they drop off?).   Maybe LM should have reacted sooner, so that's a fair criticism. 

It's apparent that the only solution for lack of creativity isn't in formations, but in the players on the pitch.  We knew we'd suffer when Scott left unless he was replaced, regardless of who the manager was.   Just hope Twine's injury isn't as bad as most fear, and Mebude can spark something. 

Edited February 3 by Red Skin

[Cowshed]

13 hours ago, Maltshoveller said:

It is not just us though

90% of teams cant do it 

The only teams i have seen win anything on a regular basis playing like this are Peps teams Man City and Barca

Most teams playing this type of football lose the ball in their own 3rd more often than they make chances to score

Stop ducking about and get the ball into the other half of the pitch Then start playing football

I would question where you are getting your stats from. 

The top four in the division play forms of possession football. Burnley last season? Another yes. 

[Major Isewater]

58 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

I would question where you are getting your stats from. 

The top four in the division play forms of possession football. Burnley last season? Another yes. 

Look at the quality of their players. We don’t have the same technical ability and should play to our strengths. 
When are we going to attract the best Championship quality footballers to our club? 
 

[Super]

Difficult to play a possession game when you have CB's who cannot pass a ball.

[Cowshed]

22 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

Look at the quality of their players. We don’t have the same technical ability and should play to our strengths. 
When are we going to attract the best Championship quality footballers to our club? 
 

I was answering a point the poster made regarding 90% can't do it, and win anything. The point is uneven.

Liam Manning is developing and integrating his football into the team. This will take time and will require compromises due to resources  (Mr Lansdown). Development is linear. This is stage one. The basics are being established the squad has players who will cope, and players who can't technically, and any squad will have those who won't do.  

An evaluation after months. Key positions need strengthening. Key positions need strengthening to play the possession football Mr Manning wants. Last nights failure was an expectation, its going to happen, this team is being developed, and has players in key positions that significantly tactically limit its scope. That is not a reason to bin the intent, morph through styles (LJ), get loads of players of differing qualities costing shitloads of money (LJ) its a reason to marginally improve pragmatically elements in the quest to get closer to the coaches vision. 

[Cowshed]

32 minutes ago, Super said:

Difficult to play a possession game when you have CB's who cannot pass a ball.

And its difficult without midfielders who drop in on the half turn, or facing their own goal to play bounce passes, roll it onto the FB's, or turn and play forward. 

And its difficult without a keeper who doesn't take part in build up play, cant take out 3/4 opposing players and ping a ball into his wide receivers.

They are not cannot pass a balls. The players have ability and aptitudes and Liam Manning is attempting to synch those aptitudes. These players can play possession football to a level, its not a catastrophe, the team is at its inception, principles are being intergraded, principles are not normalised and integrated.  

Performances are? At a level to be expected. Uneven and inconsistent. 

Edited February 3 by Cowshed

[petehinton]

35 minutes ago, Super said:

Difficult to play a possession game when you have CB's who cannot pass a ball.

Dickie is comfortably the best passer of a ball at CB we’ve had since Webster. 

[Super]

54 minutes ago, petehinton said:

Dickie is comfortably the best passer of a ball at CB we’ve had since Webster. 

Not recently he's been shocking