The elephant in the room

[Super]

8 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

Goalkeepers

NP: Bentley, O'Leary

LM: O'Leary, Bajic

RB

NP: Hunt, Sessegnon

LM: McCrorie, Tanner

CB

NP: Kalas, Mawson, Baker, Vyner

LM: Vyner, Dickie, Naismith, Atkinson

LB

NP: Dasilva, Pring

LM: Pring, Roberts

CM

NP: Massengo, Nagy, Scott, Williams, Brunt, Walsh

LM: James, Knight, Williams, TGH, King

Wingers:

NP: Paterson, O'Dowda, Eliasson, Weimann

LM: Bell, Sykes, Mehmeti

AM:

NP: Palmer

LM: (Knight being pushed into here)

ST:

NP: Wells, Diedhiou, Conway

LM: Wells, Conway, Cornick

 

I think the only positions I'd take Manning's players would be RB & CM otherwise I'd take the options Pearson inherited. I'd say now our squad looks better rounded but I think there was better quality in the squad Pearson inherited. 

Def add CB's as well. Interesting comparing those though not a bad squad Pearson inherited at all.

[Davefevs]

@Lrrr the big issue for the squad Nige took over was it was a “cosy club” on pre-covid contracts.  Ability levels wasn’t really relevant!

5 minutes ago, formerly known as ivan said:

I do not think there is an elephant in the room. Some people took the words of the Lansdowns and Tinnion literally, me being one of them. Because of this Manning gets stick when things don’t go our way.

Others say they have seen enough to show promise and progress to move the club forward.

The one thing most agree on is the words spoken by those running the club are complete BS!

Think this is a large part of it FKAI.  But you can divorce the two also.

Thats probably the elephant in the room - distrust of the hierarchy.

[W-S-M Seagull]

7 minutes ago, TonyTonyTony said:

Mehmeti has got better since Manning has played him. Much better. His end product still needs a lot of work, but Pearson didnt seem to rate him. Would you credit Manning for improving one of our investments?

 

Of course Nige rated him. He brought him in here. I think Nige was giving Anis the same treatment he had given previously given Atkinson which worked wonders for Rob. 

We didn't see too much of Anis prior to Manning coming in but yes I'd say he's slightly improved him. But we are really scraping the barrel here looking for positives. 

[City Rocker]

21 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Was chatting to a poster at the weekend, my City “career” started with a 1-0 win over Liverpool, followed by a 5-0 win over Coventry.  Boy, they sucked me in good and proper!  Bastards!

Ha! I remember those games well. If anyone had told me that was as good as it would ever get, I might have saved a lifetime of misery and got into croquet or curling or lacrosse or something. 

[GrahamC]

2 minutes ago, glynriley said:

Mawson, Baker, Dasilva and Weimann were all injured for the majority of the season Pearson took over. 
 

Fam and Nagy were looking for a way out and we were playing Bakinson, Taylor Moore, Tommy Rowe and Bakinson far more than we should have been. 
 

Semenyo was a raw kid and Alex Scott was nowhere near the first team. 
 

All about opinions, but your selective memory won’t convince me that we were in a better place then. 

Pretty sure too that Eliasson was gone well before Pearson arrived?

[Open End Numb Legs]

28 minutes ago, Curr Avon said:

I've tuned in late. How did the elephant get through the front door?

Same as anyone else. You open the door, the elephant walks in, you close the door.

[W-S-M Seagull]

3 minutes ago, glynriley said:

Mawson, Baker, Dasilva and Weimann were all injured for the majority of the season Pearson took over. 
 

Fam and Nagy were looking for a way out and we were playing Bakinson, Taylor Moore, Tommy Rowe and Bakinson far more than we should have been. 
 

Semenyo was a raw kid and Alex Scott was nowhere near the first team. 
 

All about opinions, but your selective memory won’t convince me that we were in a better place then. 

I'm struggling to think of one player from that squad at that time that I'd like to have in our team now. 

A fully fit Kalas and Baker yes but they wasn't fully fit. 

[glynriley]

1 minute ago, GrahamC said:

Pretty sure too that Eliasson was gone well before Pearson arrived?

Yep he was, as I said, selective memory. Walsh, Williams and Baker made 8 appearances between then that season. 

[chinapig]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

@Lrrr the big issue for the squad Nige took over was it was a “cosy club” on pre-covid contracts.  Ability levels wasn’t really relevant!

Think this is a large part of it FKAI.  But you can divorce the two also.

Thats probably the elephant in the room - distrust of the hierarchy.

The problem Liam has is that he's been lumbered with their expectations. I'm afraid he will just have to roll with the punches if he assured them he could deliver what they promised.

[Lrrr]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

@Lrrr the big issue for the squad Nige took over was it was a “cosy club” on pre-covid contracts.  Ability levels wasn’t really relevant!

I'd say it was as that's the way the statement was phrased, it wasn't 'the best state the club has been in' or anything it was purely a statement claiming Manning has inherited the best squad of players, which I don't think it is, the squad as a collective was better when Nigel arrived, now that obviously has the factor as you mention that the squad would have cost more and a discussion of the best value for money squad could be a different answer, but I responded to the statement that was given.

[t_b]

13 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

Goalkeepers

NP: Bentley, O'Leary

LM: O'Leary, Bajic

RB

NP: Hunt, Sessegnon

LM: McCrorie, Tanner

CB

NP: Kalas, Mawson, Baker, Vyner

LM: Vyner, Dickie, Naismith, Atkinson

LB

NP: Dasilva, Pring

LM: Pring, Roberts

CM

NP: Massengo, Nagy, Scott, Williams, Brunt, Walsh

LM: James, Knight, Williams, TGH, King

Wingers:

NP: Paterson, O'Dowda, Eliasson, Weimann

LM: Bell, Sykes, Mehmeti

AM:

NP: Palmer

LM: (Knight being pushed into here)

ST:

NP: Wells, Diedhiou, Conway

LM: Wells, Conway, Cornick

 

I think the only positions I'd take Manning's players would be RB & CM otherwise I'd take the options Pearson inherited. I'd say now our squad looks better rounded but I think there was better quality in the squad Pearson inherited. 

I think you’re taking some big leaps with NP’s squad. 

Pring, Conway & Scott hadn’t even played before NP took over. Vyner would’ve been departing if we brought in any additional players summer 2022.

You can have good academy players but to be forced into gambling on them as part of your core squad… can’t really call them strength until they’ve proven themselves. 
 

[GrahamC]

1 minute ago, glynriley said:

Yep he was, as I said, selective memory. Walsh, Williams and Baker made 8 appearances between then that season. 

To be fair 8 appearances in a season would be a record high for Liam Walsh..

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, Lrrr said:

I'd say it was as that's the way the statement was phrased, it wasn't 'the best state the club has been in' or anything it was purely a statement claiming Manning has inherited the best squad of players, which I don't think it is, the squad as a collective was better when Nigel arrived, now that obviously has the factor as you mention that the squad would have cost more and a discussion of the best value for money squad could be a different answer, but I responded to the statement that was given.

 

[Lrrr]

6 minutes ago, glynriley said:

Mawson, Baker, Dasilva and Weimann were all injured for the majority of the season Pearson took over

So you can take all of the players out who were injured when Manning arrived as well then in that case, the statement was based on squad when the manager took over, Mawson, Baker, Dasilva & Weimann were all squad members when Pearson took over, he inherited them as players, the original post claimed Manning has inherited better players. 

[David Brent]

10 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

I think the only positions I'd take Manning's players would be RB & CM otherwise I'd take the options Pearson inherited. I'd say now our squad looks better rounded but I think there was better quality in the squad Pearson inherited. 

Nigel gave opportunities to Scott and Conway. They weren’t inherited readymade. 

Some players you missed. Holden’s last staring 11 included Mariappa, Moore and Lansbury.

[chinapig]

13 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Depends whether you want to force a passing style or not.

That is my concern, though I'm not sure Liam has clearly set out his philosophy to us fans. I doubt we'll see until next season.

[Lrrr]

2 minutes ago, t_b said:

I think you’re taking some big leaps with NP’s squad. 

Pring, Conway & Scott hadn’t even played before NP took over. Vyner would’ve been departing if we brought in any additional players summer 2022.

You can have good academy players but to be forced into gambling on them as part of your core squad… can’t really call them strength until they’ve proven themselves. 
 

Scott was more then ready for Championship and showed almost straight away, he wasn't the key player he became sure, but he was definitely a squad player. Conway came in and had an almost immediate impact, again not as a starter or key player but remember him also having a couple of disallowed goals and positive performances. 

[Lrrr]

3 minutes ago, David Brent said:

Nigel gave opportunities to Scott and Conway. They weren’t inherited readymade. 

Some players you missed. Holden’s last staring 11 included Mariappa, Moore and Lansbury.

So if anything Nigel inherited even more options, whether or not he chose to use them, Manning's had to have benches full of academy players too at the start. Conway/Scott discussed above, they were in the building and training regularly with the first team whether they'd made their debuts or not, that was down to Holden choosing not to play them. 

[spudski]

11 minutes ago, Robbored said:

I think that it’s premature to pass any kind of judgment on Manning who has inherited Nige’s squad which according to JL is good enough to be promotion candidates 

However - he’s only been in post a relevantly short time but it’s fair to say he hasn’t improved results as yet nor has he impressed us fans. None of us can actually see what his methods and strategies are despite there being several football savvy posters on here.

He bleats on about the relentless nature of the Championship and not having enough time to ‘work on the grass’ but every other Championship manager is in the same situation - he needs to bloody well get over it and realise that he’s in with the big boys now.

The summer will be when we’ll get a better idea of what he’s about.

Whilst I respect your reply RR...I think it's pretty obvious how he wishes to play. 

He spoken about his methods and it's obvious to the eye. 

It's actually easier to pick out than when under NP. 

I can now watch games, and it's so structured that I can call pretty much where each player is going to move after each passage of play. 

As others do and have pointed out. 

It is that drilled and structured. 

 

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, Lrrr said:

So if anything Nigel inherited even more options, whether or not he chose to use them, Manning's had to have benches full of academy players too at the start. Conway/Scott discussed above, they were in the building and training regularly with the first team whether they'd made their debuts or not, that was down to Holden choosing not to play them. 

Half the players that he inherited were injured, OOC or both….with no room to manoeuvre in the summer.

[Davefevs]

This…

…escalated quicker than this thread!

[Tim Monaghan]

[Robbored]

1 minute ago, spudski said:

Whilst I respect your reply RR...I think it's pretty obvious how he wishes to play. 

He spoken about his methods and it's obvious to the eye. 

It's actually easier to pick out than when under NP. 

I can now watch games, and it's so structured that I can call pretty much where each player is going to move after each passage of play. 

As others do and have pointed out. 

It is that drilled and structured. 

 

I can see that the play is more structured and that it enables players to try and exploit any available width but QPR certainly worked out how to stop it and Manning didn’t seen to have a plan B and his substitutions especially Cornick wide right baffled pretty much everyone

Having  such structure can inhibit players using their intuition/instinct as situation’s develop during play. I’m not convinced that a structure it’s always beneficial.

[Loosey Boy]

13 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

This…

…escalated quicker than this thread!

Yep. Now totally and utterly marooned in mid-table - where the vast majority of us expected City to be this season.

[pillred]

1 hour ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

It's a well thought out post mate which is backed up by evidence and asks questions. 

Thanks for your contribution tho. 

It is my opinion that this squad is the best squad that any manager has inherited over the past few decades. If you disagree then fair enough please do give an example as to why you think it's not? And which squad was better that another manager inherited? 

I think we should be doing better than we are. Saturdays game being a case in point. 

We did not play well on Saturday nobody could argue against that, but we were very good against West Ham and Nottingham Forest had great results against Middlesboro and outplayed Southampton, so what does that say? well, we all know that on our day we are a match for most teams in this league but have too many off days just like under Pearson really. Talk of another change of manager is madness look I've been disappointed as well but come on we're not Watford. where the manager of the month means exactly that.  

[W-S-M Seagull]

11 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

This…

…escalated quicker than this thread!

After 33 games (18 under Manning) we are now at the point where we ended last season. 

Its gonna take quite some effort to try and better last seasons difference. 

After 33 games last season we were 9 points off. So we've ever so slightly regressed and certainly not taken the steps forward that we were supposed to. 

For fairness purposes I'll mention After 33 games last season we were on 42 points and 6th on 51. Now we're on 44 points with 6th on 54th. So points wise we've slightly improved but then so has the rest of the Championship. 

We are treading water at best. 

[And Its Smith]

The elephant in the room is that Manning gets criticised by some for a defeat much more than Pearson used too. And gets praised less for a win.  

[W-S-M Seagull]

3 minutes ago, pillred said:

We did not play well on Saturday nobody could argue against that, but we were very good against West Ham and Nottingham Forest had great results against Middlesboro and outplayed Southampton, so what does that say? well, we all know that on our day we are a match for most teams in this league but have too many off days just like under Pearson really. Talk of another change of manager is madness look I've been disappointed as well but come on we're not Watford. where the manager of the month means exactly that.  

It's the million dollar question why we can do well against those teams but struggle against the likes of QPR. We were also terrible against Leeds. 

I don't know if it's a motivational thing or a tactics thing or what. But that's for Manning to work out as so far he has failed to do so. 

Sunderland saw it wasn't working with Beale so got rid. At this point in time I've seen very little to suggest that Manning can take us forward. Only blind faith. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

28 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Half the players that he inherited were injured, OOC or both….with no room to manoeuvre in the summer.

Exactly.

Had NP inherited a fair few of them with morale high, injuries only moderate and a better off pitch financial situation a totally different situation.

However regardless of the individuals and their merits or flaws, he inherited an appalling state of play. Gould with the finances too.

[spudski]

10 minutes ago, Robbored said:

I can see that the play is more structured and that it enables players to try and exploit any available width but QPR certainly worked out how to stop it and Manning didn’t seen to have a plan B and his substitutions especially Cornick wide right baffled pretty much everyone

Having  such structure can inhibit players using their intuition/instinct as situation’s develop during play. I’m not convinced that a structure it’s always beneficial.

You need structure, but within that structure you need players to be able to express themselves, but when doing so, making the right decision, and realising if the reward is worth the risk, or will it leave the team open to being exploited. 

Scott was perfect at doing this...all within structure. 

We are structured, easy to read. We don't have anyone capable of opening up defences on a consistent enough basis.