Have the players given up on this season or LM

[BS3 Ark at Ee]

High Performance Centre…..who’s actually performing highly up there?

[Northern Red]

5 minutes ago, BS3 Ark at Ee said:

High Performance Centre…..who’s actually performing highly up there?

Well done, you're the first person ever to make that gag.

[marmite]

I put on another thread about him maybe losing the dressing room. So many players look frustrated at the lack of movement in the team. One things for sure, something is not right at at AG8. Saturdays game will be as much about the performance as it will be about the result. Another QPR/Shef.Wed performance will not be acceptable and it could turn toxic. 

[Major Isewater]

9 hours ago, Mendip City said:

Personally I think he’ll do well to start next season here. Something doesn’t feel right and never has to me. 

As I have written previously, IMHO, this being City, the coach will be supported with shiny new players in the summer, a whole preseason to get his methods across to the players and then the same old shite. He will probably not be here for next season’s January transfer window. 
The people at the helm thought they could improve the results with a bloke who has done nothing concrete in his career so far and is supposed to tell players like King  and James how to play the game ? 

It says a lot when LM declared that the win against West Ham was the best of his career so far. #tinpot.

Manning was on a hiding to nothing from the outset. 
If we genuinely wanted top six then we bring in a top six coach not an unproven rookie. We also bring in players of the caliber ,no disrespect to the youngsters signed who are clearly here to grow with the club and Uncle Steve’s nest egg. 
The players would have run through brick walls for the staff deemed not good enough by our esteemed owner. I don’t see that anymore.

I am thoroughly disenchanted with the club at the moment. 

 

 

[Major Isewater]

1 hour ago, BS3 Ark at Ee said:

High Performance Centre…..who’s actually performing highly up there?

 

[Davefevs]

4 hours ago, FNQ said:

Blimey Dave, you’re a patient bloke. How long is your evaluation process going to last? Liam’s been here for half a season now with pretty much a full squad, surely you’re close to being on the home stretch?

Not really.

I said I’d make my first evaluation at the end of the window.  At that point he was roughly keeping pace with my expectations.  These (below) are my expectations, not anyone else’s admittedly (least of all the hierarchy’s), although I think they seem fair:

At that point there were some little worries about how his changes were being played out in the pitch, and the underlying numbers were something I was watching too.

Since then we’ve gone 2 wins / 3 defeats, so not alarming in itself, but the mix of performance level has us fans ranging from - he’s got it sussed, we are heading the right direction (after Southampton) to the bloke’s a fraud we are in a relegation battle (after Sheff Wed).

I think he’s somewhere in between, so willing to watch which way he trends.

In many respects I am disappointed that he’s not brought any real cohesion to our attacking play, because that was the area I expected him to make a difference.  The playing style I was looking forward to seeing hasn’t materialised and from my point of view games have actually become more sterile by and large.  But others may disagree.

So sat here today, he is starting to trend down in my view.  But I couldn’t tell you whether that is gonna continue or not.

Ill let you know Saturday at 14:30

Edited February 27 by Davefevs

[OliOTIB]

It wasn’t necessarily a lack of effort on saturday, from what I saw. It was just not good enough technically. Thats what pissed me, and other fans who travelled off.

[Nogbad the Bad]

34 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

I am thoroughly disenchanted with the club at the moment. 

My disenchantment with the club goes back a long way now to the day they sacked Steve Cotterill.

I was reinvigorated by the unexpected and excellent appointment of another great character and leader in NP, then just as the heavy lifting has been done to correct their horrendous errors of the past, and we could look forward with some degree of optimism and excitement, they boot him out too.

If the aim was to completely deflate and piss off fans like me they could hardly have done a better job.

 

[Edgy Red]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Not really.

I said I’d make my first evaluation at the end of the window.  At that point he was roughly keeping pace with my expectations.  These (below) are my expectations, not anyone else’s admittedly (least of all the hierarchy’s), although I think they seem fair:

At that point there were some little worries about how his changes were being played out in the pitch, and the underlying numbers were something I was watching too.

Since then we’ve gone 2 wins / 3 defeats, so not alarming in itself, but the mix of performance level has us fans ranging from - he’s got it sussed, we are heading the right direction (after Southampton) to the bloke’s a fraud we are in a relegation battle (after Sheff Wed).

I think he’s somewhere in between, so willing to watch which way he trends.

In many respects I am disappointed that he’s not brought any real cohesion to our attacking play, because that was the area I expected him to make a difference.  The playing style I was looking forward to seeing hasn’t materialised and from my point of view games have actually become more sterile by and large.  But others may disagree.

So sat here today, he is starting to trend down in my view.  But I couldn’t tell you whether that is gonna continue or not.

Ill let you know Saturday at 14:30

Thats a very balanced post Dave and it echoes most of my thoughts at present.

Sadly, the point you raise about the cohesion in our attacking play, i believe, is down to the lack of quality we have in that area. I'm not sure Pep Guardiola could greatly improve what we currently have.

Twine was recruited on loan to help and has obviously been injured, but we really don't have any "clever" players in the final third, or a physical threat as a plan B. I think Mehmeti has some ability, tho he doesn't look ready for the challenge of Champ football at present.

The rest are all "hard working" and "honest" professionals but lack the X Factor that we need.

[Davefevs]

18 minutes ago, Edgy Red said:

Thats a very balanced post Dave and it echoes most of my thoughts at present.

Sadly, the point you raise about the cohesion in our attacking play, i believe, is down to the lack of quality we have in that area. I'm not sure Pep Guardiola could greatly improve what we currently have.

Twine was recruited on loan to help and has obviously been injured, but we really don't have any "clever" players in the final third, or a physical threat as a plan B. I think Mehmeti has some ability, tho he doesn't look ready for the challenge of Champ football at present.

The rest are all "hard working" and "honest" professionals but lack the X Factor that we need.

Warning: woolly response coming up!

I sorta agree with this, it was kinda functional under Nige, it was doing enough, it wasn’t perfect.  I now see certain parts of it regressing…and this was the area I thought LM would at least make marginal gains in by now.

The bits that remain stable are the bits we play on the counter.

The bits that have got worse are in build-up, which is my biggest worry.  I’m not even seeing those rotations from the opening 6-8 games anymore.  This was the area I expected improvement, yet it’s the area that’s got worse.

I get the mitigation re Twine’s injury.  The unknown is how big that is.

 

[steviestevieneville]

14 hours ago, Superjack said:

Not correct. 

The Lansdowns have destroyed the culture at this club. 

After two and a half years of it being built. 

****ing heartbreaking.

I will never forgive them.

Worst thing for me is repeating mistakes. How many times have they done it. Wanted a nice cosy club with a manager they can manipulate in LJ . We get  soft club that reflects the owners . Takes Pearson ages to turn that culture around . Someone they had to appoint to us out of the shit show they’d created. Now it’s starting all over again. Alarm bells are ringing big time for me. 

[Robin101]

I think we're stuck in a vicious circle now. If Manning had been appointed 10, 5 or even 3 years ago I think people would be prepared to be a lot more patient. But as fans we've been waiting so, so long for a period of even moderate success at this level now (16 years since we reached the playoffs for flip's sake). And I for one can't be bothered to give Manning 2 and half years to maybe sort it out.

I booed them off the pitch on Saturday – honestly, not aimed at anyone or anything in particular. Maybe you can call it petulant. But I was just booing the club and the state of affairs we find ourselves in, again. It's rubbish, and boring and I don't think I'm the only one completely fed up of it. 

[1team]

I think the most concerning thing is that pre Manning we had one of the meanest defensive units in the division. The last 2 games it has looked all over the place, which if we are going to get drawn towards the teams scrapping for survival is worrying.

[Sheltons Army]

27 minutes ago, 1team said:

I think the most concerning thing is that pre Manning we had one of the meanest defensive units in the division. The last 2 games it has looked all over the place, which if we are going to get drawn towards the teams scrapping for survival is worrying.

I did think it slightly strange that in talking about Sat post match he highlighted their first goal and how easy they’d played thro us with two passes

He said they had largely been working on the defensive base , and not only did I Not , personally think it needed masses of work or change , but that a large part of the work is not particularly showing as it largely didn’t need to be 

We weren’t a car crash defensively then and we aren’t now 

Edited February 27 by Sheltons Army

[FNQ]

15 minutes ago, 1team said:

I think the most concerning thing is that pre Manning we had one of the meanest defensive units in the division. The last 2 games it has looked all over the place, which if we are going to get drawn towards the teams scrapping for survival is worrying.

TBH if it wasn’t for Max we would have been 3 or 4 down at HT in the first game against West Ham and then we wouldn’t have had the euphoria of the cup run. Same against Leeds at home. We’ve been dodgy for a while.

[DaveInSA]

Well I’m very excited for Cardiff to come on Saturday. Sit back in two blocks of 4. Us create zero. And them to score on the break.

If other coaches haven’t watched us and come up with this simple game plan then I’m shocked I tell you, shocked.

[beaverface]

34 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

I did think it slightly strange that in talking about Sat post match he highlighted their first goal and how easy they’d played thro us with two passes

He said they had largely been working on the defensive base , and not only did I Not , personally think it needed masses of work or change , but that a large part of the work is not particularly showing as it largely didn’t need to be 

We weren’t a car crash defensively then and we aren’t now 

Think back a season or two, and Vyner was getting vilified. NP and Fleming worked really hard and stayed patience with Zac, to such an extent he got rewarded with a very good new contract. We're now starting to see some of those mistakes creep back into Vyner's game.

Whatever, he was doing prior to Mannings arrival, he needs to do again, but somehow I suspect Manning is asking him to do things that's exposing his abilities\concentration once again, which is a shame, because when Zac is on form he oozes class.

[Mr Popodopolous]

39 minutes ago, DaveInSA said:

Well I’m very excited for Cardiff to come on Saturday. Sit back in two blocks of 4. Us create zero. And them to score on the break.

If other coaches haven’t watched us and come up with this simple game plan then I’m shocked I tell you, shocked.

Tbh to play Devil's Advocate slightly.

Had McCrorie scored instead of hitting side netting, QPR and their gameplan would have been somewhat dented let's say.

We also wouldn't have made the triple change on the hour mark whereby our shape and cohesion went to shit. We made it to chase the game but sadly became a complete mess.

To be fair to Manning, when we score first our record so far has been very useful. The Norwich Home game the notable exception.

Edited February 27 by Mr Popodopolous

[Sir Geoff]

21 minutes ago, beaverface said:

Think back a season or two, and Vyner was getting vilified. NP and Fleming worked really hard and stayed patience with Zac, to such an extent he got rewarded with a very good new contract. We're now starting to see some of those mistakes creep back into Vyner's game.

Whatever, he was doing prior to Mannings arrival, he needs to do again, but somehow I suspect Manning is asking him to do things that's exposing his abilities\concentration once again, which is a shame, because when Zac is on form he oozes class.

Zak's form coincided with us going to a back 4 and the Zak Vyner song being 'born' away at Swansea in the cup replay. It's telling that his form has regressed recently with the chopping and changing of formations, particularly a back 3/5 which doesn't suit Zak's concentration levels or awareness of danger.

[MarcusX]

1 hour ago, Sheltons Army said:

I did think it slightly strange that in talking about Sat post match he highlighted their first goal and how easy they’d played thro us with two passes

He said they had largely been working on the defensive base , and not only did I Not , personally think it needed masses of work or change , but that a large part of the work is not particularly showing as it largely didn’t need to be 

We weren’t a car crash defensively then and we aren’t now 

It probably should have been alarming that in the week prior to his first game in charge (having inherited a fairly decent defensive base) his priority was defensive work before playing 23rd place QPR 

[Open End Numb Legs]

Whatever evidence is used to judge the manager, what is said post match or in fact pre match should be given the lowest weight. If you were manager, would you publicly give away your true thoughts for your opponents to take advantage of? 

Edited February 27 by Open End Numb Legs

[Numero Uno]

3 hours ago, steviestevieneville said:

Worst thing for me is repeating mistakes. How many times have they done it. Wanted a nice cosy club with a manager they can manipulate in LJ . We get  soft club that reflects the owners . Takes Pearson ages to turn that culture around . Someone they had to appoint to us out of the shit show they’d created. Now it’s starting all over again. Alarm bells are ringing big time for me. 

Same. It seems to me like we've put our pedal to the floor at the traffic lights...........with the car in reverse gear. If we reach a point in the next six to nine months where Manning has to be politely told "thanks for your efforts" we will be in a mess we won't be able to get out of imo. The atmosphere around the support base will be dreadful if we reach that point (it won't exactly be smelling of roses if the head tappers turn us over on Saturday), the hierarchy will be panicking like **** and I dread to think what sort of cunning plan they will come up with in that scenario.

All we can do is cross everything and hope that Liam can get the car moving forwards again. Jon and Sid are literally calling heads on the club's future and praying to **** it doesn't come down tails.........................when there was absolutely no reason to do so.

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Tbh to play Devil's Advocate slightly.

Had McCrorie scored instead of hitting side netting, QPR and their gameplan would have been somewhat dented let's say.

We also wouldn't have made the triple change on the hour mark whereby our shape and cohesion went to shit. We made it to chase the game but sadly became a complete mess.

To be fair to Manning, when we score first our record so far has been very useful. The Norwich Home game the notable exception.

Blimey Mr P….a volley from 20 yards with his “standing foot”…that is clutching for a rather large handful of straws

[Mr Popodopolous]

33 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Blimey Mr P….a volley from 20 yards with his “standing foot”…that is clutching for a rather large handful of straws

Dave, more that and yes a tad optimistic but basically it goes in..we perhaps win the game. Perhaps a low probability chance.

[Davefevs]

7 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Dave, more that and yes a tad optimistic but basically it goes in..we perhaps win the game. Perhaps a low probability chance.

Yeah, just teasing.

A 0.04xg chance (which is what it was) goes in every 25th chance!

[sh1t_ref_again]

Always wanted NP as manager and will go down as my favorite, along with Cotts and obviously did not want him sacked, but and to quote my WSM flying friend, the elephant in the room, is there must be more to it than the obvious cover story as maybe the truth could not be given (although I think it was poorly handled), complete speculation, like everyone else.

Now whilst I loved Nige and would have been very happy to see him invest the Scott money and have a go, I am not sure that the football was all that great at times (not saying we did not have any good performances), recent criticism of no plan B, was the same thing we said between our group of season ticket holders about NP, in fact parts of the last 2 games reminded me a lot of games under NP with every striker on the pitch and other times of hitting long balls down the channels, so cannot pretend all was always rosy before.

When he was sacked I thought we would rush and appoint John Eustace who had Birmingham playing well. When we appointed LM instead I had my concerns about his experience as I always felt LJ and GJ had problems dealing with the better more experienced players, due to the lack of having been there and done it, particularly when results go south. In fairness to LM I did think at times we started to change things and going in the right direction, but the last 2 games have moved away from the direction we were going in, perhaps to many changes in players and shape, but think Cardiff is massive for him now, but even if we lose I would not panic and change, although that may change if things do not improve in 5 or 6 games.

[W-S-M Seagull]

12 hours ago, MarcusX said:

It probably should have been alarming that in the week prior to his first game in charge (having inherited a fairly decent defensive base) his priority was defensive work before playing 23rd place QPR 

Yep this has always bothered me. 

His first thought when he came in here was "let's make us defensively sound" when we were already defensively sound. It never made much sense and still doesn't. 

Our problem wasn't and isn't conceding goals. The problem is scoring them!

It was either a lack of home work from him and not knowing what he had in the building or he wanted us to be defensively sounder because he feared for his own record. If its that, I don't like that. 

Before he came in here, we had players throwing their bodies on the line. At times that has happened for him but whats worrying is that with all this extra defensive training, we do appear to have lost that protect the goal instinct.

As that mentality was here before he came in, I don't like him blaming the players mentality because in my opinion that's down to him.  

[LondonBristolian]

17 hours ago, MarcusX said:

It probably should have been alarming that in the week prior to his first game in charge (having inherited a fairly decent defensive base) his priority was defensive work before playing 23rd place QPR 

This is where I worry that there is a little bit of a “coaching manual” mentality. I might be wrong but I can’t help fearing Manning worked on the defensive side first because he’s been taught that you should look at the defensive side first, rather than because he had evaluated what the team actually needed to work on.

[cidered abroad]

11 hours ago, sh1t_ref_again said:

Always wanted NP as manager and will go down as my favorite, along with Cotts and obviously did not want him sacked, but and to quote my WSM flying friend, the elephant in the room, is there must be more to it than the obvious cover story as maybe the truth could not be given (although I think it was poorly handled), complete speculation, like everyone else.

Now whilst I loved Nige and would have been very happy to see him invest the Scott money and have a go, I am not sure that the football was all that great at times (not saying we did not have any good performances), recent criticism of no plan B, was the same thing we said between our group of season ticket holders about NP, in fact parts of the last 2 games reminded me a lot of games under NP with every striker on the pitch and other times of hitting long balls down the channels, so cannot pretend all was always rosy before.

When he was sacked I thought we would rush and appoint John Eustace who had Birmingham playing well. When we appointed LM instead I had my concerns about his experience as I always felt LJ and GJ had problems dealing with the better more experienced players, due to the lack of having been there and done it, particularly when results go south. In fairness to LM I did think at times we started to change things and going in the right direction, but the last 2 games have moved away from the direction we were going in, perhaps to many changes in players and shape, but think Cardiff is massive for him now, but even if we lose I would not panic and change, although that may change if things do not improve in 5 or 6 games.

Exactly what I'm thinking. LM is reminding me of the first three or four years with AD.

He was a very young ex player who hadn't achieved anything as a player. No caps, no cups and no league promotions. It took him four years of scraping enough points to avoid relegation before the team that he built with the then version of Academy boys won promotion to Div One, nine years after AD arrived.

As for the other City managers that have won promotion for us. Either ex players with caps or who had been successful  at the level we were at.

Pro footballers hardly ever respect managers who have never played international games, won trophies at a higher level or proven high quality coaches such as Fred Ford.

I suspect that at least several of our squad were thinking "who the fxxx is he and what's he won?" Especially when as mentioned, he was more concerned with the defence before his first match at QPR than scoring goals.

[Clutton Caveman]

On 26/02/2024 at 20:45, Rocking Red Cyril said:

Not sure he has lost the dressing room yet. But from LM after game interview. Lots of well they just not learning and not doing what is expected. Laying the blame for the performance/result on the players back. Which strikes me as not good player/manager dynamic. How can the players get it do right against Southampton and so ineffective since ?

If as seems to me the players look still do unsure as to their expected roles on the field. Whose fault the players or the coach . 

And when do the numpty's in suits sack the players or coach ? Or go for another reinvestment in manager/coach and players in.

Have we not been here before?

For me when the plan is not working and no useful solution is coming from the coach the players clearly lose their faith. 

Its a bit like LM has come to the end of the latest training manual and found that it doesn't contain the answers to a team that cannot create and a determined defence. Doesn't help that we have nothing on our books resembling a striker.