Have the players given up on this season or LM

[sh1t_ref_again]

Not wanting to repeat the other let's sack everyone threads, watching the last couple of games I have started to wonder if we have trouble within the camp between the players, or perhaps maybe a bit of player power going on.

Not sure if anyone noticed Skyes at the end of the QPR game, stood for several minutes, hands on hips looking really pissed off, in the corner of the South / lansdown stand whilst the other players clapped the fans, then when Knight approached he just walked straight past without any acknowledgement.

Cam (1 of my favourite players) at Sheffield, I have never seen him put in so little effort to get back at his man and was a big hand in the 2 goals. May be down to being not fit to play, but looked like not wanting to put in the effort?

When Manning's name was touted, my concern was his lack of doing anything in the game as a player or manager, when it starts to go wrong do the players retain the faith of what he is saying, in particular if senior players are not behind it. The early days, players seem to be enjoying the training but not sure if that still the case.

Perhaps uncertainty over some players contracts and worried about getting injured

Or maybe just reading to much into things off the back of a couple of bad results, guess having a derby will show who is up for it.

[Rocking Red Cyril]

1 hour ago, sh1t_ref_again said:

Not wanting to repeat the other let's sack everyone threads, watching the last couple of games I have started to wonder if we have trouble within the camp between the players, or perhaps maybe a bit of player power going on.

Not sure if anyone noticed Skyes at the end of the QPR game, stood for several minutes, hands on hips looking really pissed off, in the corner of the South / lansdown stand whilst the other players clapped the fans, then when Knight approached he just walked straight past without any acknowledgement.

Cam (1 of my favourite players) at Sheffield, I have never seen him put in so little effort to get back at his man and was a big hand in the 2 goals. May be down to being not fit to play, but looked like not wanting to put in the effort?

When Manning's name was touted, my concern was his lack of doing anything in the game as a player or manager, when it starts to go wrong do the players retain the faith of what he is saying, in particular if senior players are not behind it. The early days, players seem to be enjoying the training but not sure if that still the case.

Perhaps uncertainty over some players contracts and worried about getting injured

Or maybe just reading to much into things off the back of a couple of bad results, guess having a derby will show who is up for it.

Not sure he has lost the dressing room yet. But from LM after game interview. Lots of well they just not learning and not doing what is expected. Laying the blame for the performance/result on the players back. Which strikes me as not good player/manager dynamic. How can the players get it do right against Southampton and so ineffective since ?

If as seems to me the players look still do unsure as to their expected roles on the field. Whose fault the players or the coach . 

And when do the numpty's in suits sack the players or coach ? Or go for another reinvestment in manager/coach and players in.

Have we not been here before?

[REDOXO]

I have. 
 

This didn’t need to happen, we weren’t out of the picture under Pearson but there we are. 
 

There are a number of players OOC in the summer as I understand it and unless someone knows better I haven’t heard any rumors about extensions? 
 

What is known is Mr Manning wants to bring in “his” players. So none of it is conducive to the kind of run of results we would need for the season not to be over, bar a relegation scrap if this garbage continues over the next five games. 
 

 

[MarcusX]

I didn’t see a lack of effort from players Saturday to be honest, but Sykes and Pring looked nowhere near ready to play either fitness wise or not fully recovered.

Maybe Sykes is frustrated with his injury? He was getting involved with something with the home fans Saturday and I thought that was odd, then obviously went off at HT.

my view is a confusion about how to play. You can see it in the press, Conways going and no one backs him up - then next time Conway was controlling the press telling people when to go, or when not to.

Problem with a press is you all need to be on the same wavelength and instinctive really, if you’re waiting for a call then it look disjointed or leave gaps.

And when it’s deliberately held off as Conway was doing at times Saturday, it can look lazy or lacking effort. Many times you heard the crowd shouting at them to press as they were frustrated, while Conway was clearly telling Mehmeti not to go.

[Ashton Fete]

Saturdays game will be very telling after LM being so critical of the players after Sheff Weds which I personally didn’t like as he puts it all on them without even a hint of his own self reflection on his selections/tactics

I do wonder once we are mathematically safe whether we’ll see more of his thinking for next season and the OOC players being on the bench at best

I tried to buy into him with the obvious great performances but the doubt now is very loud and clear after more negative performances than positive 

But beat Cardiff and Swansea back to back and optimism returns!

[Mendip City]

4 minutes ago, Ashton Fete said:

Saturdays game will be very telling after LM being so critical of the players after Sheff Weds which I personally didn’t like as he puts it all on them without even a hint of his own self reflection on his selections/tactics

I do wonder once we are mathematically safe whether we’ll see more of his thinking for next season and the OOC players being on the bench at best

I tried to buy into him with the obvious great performances but the doubt now is very loud and clear after more negative performances than positive 

But beat Cardiff and Swansea back to back and optimism returns!

His criticism of the players is a massive gamble. Only two weeks after those same players were outstanding against Southampton…. Should the players not like what he’s said, it’ll end badly. 

[1960maaan]

I think they are an honest hard working group . 
They may have frustrations, it would be understandable and after a defeat why not be pissed off ?
Pring didn't look fit, plus he got a knock early on even Naismith said that Cam doesn't stay down unless he's hurt . Maybe he was struggling before and the knock made it worse. 
I honestly don't think the players enjoy the rotation or the Subs by numbers, and I do wonder if they get so much information they start to overthink and so play slower . Time will tell I guess , but Manning looked stressed post match Saturday . Saturday has the feel of a big day , bigger than normal I'd say, which isn't great 3 months into a new job. 

[W-S-M Seagull]

Liam Manning has destroyed the culture at this club. 

He's coming out and saying crap like "players need to have high standards" that was all here before he came in. If those things are not now present then that falls squarely at his feet. 

Edited February 26 by W-S-M Seagull

[Superjack]

Just now, W-S-M Seagull said:

Liam Manning has destroyed the culture at this club. 

Not correct. 

The Lansdowns have destroyed the culture at this club. 

After two and a half years of it being built. 

****ing heartbreaking.

I will never forgive them.

[REDOXO]

6 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Liam Manning has destroyed the culture at this club. 

He's coming out and saying crap like "players need to have high standards" that was all here before he came in. If those things are not now present then that falls squarely at his feet. 

 

3 minutes ago, Superjack said:

Not correct. 

The Lansdowns have destroyed the culture at this club. 

After two and a half years of it being built. 

****ing heartbreaking.

I will never forgive them.

To be frank you are both right. 
 

Yes it is heartbreaking! 
 

They all had an able assistant! 

 

Edited February 26 by REDOXO

[Davefevs]

40 minutes ago, MarcusX said:

I didn’t see a lack of effort from players Saturday to be honest, but Sykes and Pring looked nowhere near ready to play either fitness wise or not fully recovered.

Maybe Sykes is frustrated with his injury? He was getting involved with something with the home fans Saturday and I thought that was odd, then obviously went off at HT.

my view is a confusion about how to play. You can see it in the press, Conways going and no one backs him up - then next time Conway was controlling the press telling people when to go, or when not to.

Problem with a press is you all need to be on the same wavelength and instinctive really, if you’re waiting for a call then it look disjointed or leave gaps.

And when it’s deliberately held off as Conway was doing at times Saturday, it can look lazy or lacking effort. Many times you heard the crowd shouting at them to press as they were frustrated, while Conway was clearly telling Mehmeti not to go.

Neither did I.  This is a genuine bunch of players imho.

I too saw a confused game plan.  It wasn’t just the press, it was the channel ball, and then the distances it left between our units, that then knock on to the inability to then structure a press.

The 424 press/block discarded because he’s played a hybrid WB system and two number 10s…which unfortunately meant an unfit looking Pring unable to get up to his opposing WB to leave Mehmeti trying to split two players…and getting passed around.  That is not to excuse Mehmeti who had a poor game, but it meant a double whammy down our left side.

Our players aren’t shit.

If they couldn’t execute the game-plan, of if the game-plan was wrong, something needs to change.

Manning believes the tactics were right (perhaps they were), but if it results in him calling out the players after the match, he’s basically failed to show leadership, becayse it changes the dynamic from its “on-us” to its “on them”.

10 minutes ago, Mendip City said:

His criticism of the players is a massive gamble. Only two weeks after those same players were outstanding against Southampton…. Should the players not like what he’s said, it’ll end badly. 

It is indeed a gamble.  As above it was a bit “not my fault”.  No manager is perfect, and a lot will depend on how the relationship has been built.

[Ashton Fete]

23 minutes ago, Mendip City said:

His criticism of the players is a massive gamble. Only two weeks after those same players were outstanding against Southampton…. Should the players not like what he’s said, it’ll end badly. 

Exactly that. Not even a hint of him getting selection or tactics wrong and trying to shield the players.

He also said post match “I can’t control what fans think” and that again is just a naive comment as we will react to his pre and post match comments so actually you can to a degree. 
 

Lets hope he’s learnt a lot from the last 2 weeks in terms of selection, tactics and communications as for me he’s got them all badly wrong 

[Mendip City]

20 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

It is indeed a gamble.  As above it was a bit “not my fault”.  No manager is perfect, and a lot will depend on how the relationship has been built.

Agree, “I” when we win, “they” when we lose is a bad habit for manager to get into. 

Your point above about a confused game plan is well made.

I’m also a little tired LM saying he’s “overloaded” the players with info…. If you’re aware you’ve done that…. Stop bloody doing it!!!! 

18 minutes ago, Ashton Fete said:

Exactly that. Not even a hint of him getting selection or tactics wrong and trying to shield the players.

He also said post match “I can’t control what fans think” and that again is just a naive comment as we will react to his pre and post match comments so actually you can to a degree. 
 

Lets hope he’s learnt a lot from the last 2 weeks in terms of selection, tactics and communications as for me he’s got them all badly wrong 

Agree. Naive is definitely the word! 

[Edgy Red]

51 minutes ago, Mendip City said:

His criticism of the players is a massive gamble. Only two weeks after those same players were outstanding against Southampton…. Should the players not like what he’s said, it’ll end badly. 

To be fair, Nige regularly criticised individuals and i don't recall many times (if any at all) that he took responsibility for a defeat. If anyone has any post match interviews of Nige where he accepted that his selections/decisions had cost us the result, please post it.

[SydneyCity]

3 hours ago, sh1t_ref_again said:

players seem to be enjoying the training

I listened to a podcast of ex-pros yesterday and the conversation turned to Michael Beale. Some had inside knowledge of his time at certain clubs and I thought there were likely similarities with Manning:

• Players genuinely enjoyed his sessions
• Players learnt from his sessions
• Putting on sessions is the easiest part of football
• The key to a good session (besides good football knowledge) is ensuring that you're coaching for the players, not for yourself
• If you coach for yourself, not your players, you're going to fail
• Being a coach is very different from being a manager
• Management requires infinitely more complicated interactions and a bit of needle
• It's easy for a coach to be friendly and "one of the lads" on the training pitch, as they can avoid making the tough decisions (they just need to put on good sessions)
• If it's clear that you're not going to manage (make the tough decisions and keep the players in line) then the players will see that and break ranks
• Beale was a terrible man manager and this is the key to success
• Beale is a "shadow manager", someone who works best behind a bright manager
• With a couple of failures and payouts, he'll go back to being a good behind-the-scenes coach

I don't know if it's like for like with Manning but I can imagine some of the above applies.

Edited February 26 by SydneyCity

[JAWS]

50 minutes ago, Superjack said:

Not correct. 

The Lansdowns have destroyed the culture at this club. 

After two and a half years of it being built. 

****ing heartbreaking.

I will never forgive them.

The lansclowns have perfected the art of undoing any good or momentum created, often going against the will of the fans, like a spoilt kid taking his ball home when things don't go their way or their ego's are dented. They definitely like to show us who's boss. 

[Superjack]

20 minutes ago, JAWS said:

The lansclowns have perfected the art of undoing any good or momentum created, often going against the will of the fans, like a spoilt kid taking his ball home when things don't go their way or their ego's are dented. They definitely like to show us who's boss. 

They ain't the boss of me.

[Sheltons Army]

Tell you what players anywhere want to enjoy training first and foremost 

I have no idea how they find Liam Mannings work on the training ground but , and times have changed slightly , but the majority , at any club will find the sort of work , LM , Pep , or any other technical orientated / process type coach hard work mentally and a lot will find it a bit boring and tedious 

Man City players have alluded to the difficulties adapting

It requires players to be real keen students and buy in 

The reality , as in every profession, that’s not everyone 

It’s  hard work as a HC to go this route and get a high majority to fully buy in or study

Many professional footballers really want to have fun on the training ground , and practice their individual skills or play some form of game and a few laughs with mates.

Thats not a criticism , just understandable reality and not really unnatural 

What balance you find on that training ground is crucial

I havnt a clue , but wonder whether the change in regime and approach is having an affect  

 

 

[Davefevs]

36 minutes ago, Edgy Red said:

To be fair, Nige regularly criticised individuals and i don't recall many times (if any at all) that he took responsibility for a defeat. If anyone has any post match interviews of Nige where he accepted that his selections/decisions had cost us the result, please post it.

He did indeed.  As I posted above it depends who you’re doing it to, for what reason, whether you’ve built credit with the players etc.

And then whether it gets the reaction or in some cases (Bakinson) it deteriorates.

We will see what kind of reaction we get on Saturday.  Of course it might be that the players aren’t even that interested in what was put out to the fans, and are more interested in what was said in-house, where everything is hunky-dory.

 

[W-S-M Seagull]

When a manager is saying “I can’t control what fans think, or what assessments are made" then there is big issues. 

 

 

[Mendip City]

1 minute ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

When a manager is saying “I can’t control what fans think, or what assessments are made" then there is big issues. 

 

 

Personally I think he’ll do well to start next season here. Something doesn’t feel right and never has to me. 

[W-S-M Seagull]

7 minutes ago, Mendip City said:

Personally I think he’ll do well to start next season here. Something doesn’t feel right and never has to me. 

I don't agree with the decision to replace the previous manager. 

However once done, in the circumstances that it happened, it was vital to appoint someone who could re-unite the fans. Someone we could all get behind. 

Instead we appointed someone who's not had an impressive career and who doesn't understand emotions. In my opinion it was never going to be the right fit based on those two core things. 

For me it's never been the right fit. I've struggled to warm to the guy and I think that's because he's not someone who understands a fanbase and the need to connect with fans. If I went for a beer with Liam then I think I'd fall asleep. 

At a time where he is under pressure, instead of trying to rally us, in my opinion he's essentially saying "I don't care what the fans think or what assessments they make" that's how that came across and when a manager goes down that route, it only ends one way. That's probably his lack of experience showing. 

Edited February 26 by W-S-M Seagull

[JAWS]

3 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

I don't agree with the decision to replace the previous manager. 

However once done, in the circumstances that it happened, it was vital to appoint someone who could re-unite the fans. Someone we could all get behind. 

Instead we appointed someone who's not had an impressive career and who doesn't understand emotions. In my opinion it was never going to be the right fit based on those two core things. 

For me it's never been the right fit. I've struggled to warm to the guy and I think that's because he's not someone who understands a fanbase and the need to connect with fans. If I went for a beer with Liam then I think I'd fall asleep. 

If it ain't broke.....

[MelksRed]

2 hours ago, Mendip City said:

His criticism of the players is a massive gamble. Only two weeks after those same players were outstanding against Southampton…. Should the players not like what he’s said, it’ll end badly. 

It's going to end badly anyhow. At least this might expedite it. Hopefully not via League One before SL Wakes up from his slumber and acts.

[Davefevs]

45 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

I don't agree with the decision to replace the previous manager. 

However once done, in the circumstances that it happened, it was vital to appoint someone who could re-unite the fans. Someone we could all get behind. 

Instead we appointed someone who's not had an impressive career and who doesn't understand emotions. In my opinion it was never going to be the right fit based on those two core things. 

For me it's never been the right fit. I've struggled to warm to the guy and I think that's because he's not someone who understands a fanbase and the need to connect with fans. If I went for a beer with Liam then I think I'd fall asleep. 

At a time where he is under pressure, instead of trying to rally us, in my opinion he's essentially saying "I don't care what the fans think or what assessments they make" that's how that came across and when a manager goes down that route, it only ends one way. That's probably his lack of experience showing. 

FWIW it’s not the appointment of Manning, it’s all the contradictions that went with it.  That created an opportunity for division, unnecessarily so.

See, I quite like him.  But I think he does need to learn quick.  I’m not gonna change my way of evaluating him against my expectations.  Win, lose or draw, Saturday, it’s just an evolving picture…but he’d help me if he could get less diverging performances!

[FNQ]

3 hours ago, Davefevs said:

FWIW it’s not the appointment of Manning, it’s all the contradictions that went with it.  That created an opportunity for division, unnecessarily so.

See, I quite like him.  But I think he does need to learn quick.  I’m not gonna change my way of evaluating him against my expectations.  Win, lose or draw, Saturday, it’s just an evolving picture…but he’d help me if he could get less diverging performances!

Blimey Dave, you’re a patient bloke. How long is your evaluation process going to last? Liam’s been here for half a season now with pretty much a full squad, surely you’re close to being on the home stretch?

[2015]

Maybe the arrows at the 'High Performance Centre' were in the wrong positions last week.

[FNQ]

3 minutes ago, 2015 said:

Maybe the arrows at the 'High Performance Centre' were in the wrong positions last week.

Some guy in the EP comments section suggested it should be FAILand..

[TDarwall]

2 hours ago, FNQ said:

Blimey Dave, you’re a patient bloke. How long is your evaluation process going to last? Liam’s been here for half a season now with pretty much a full squad, surely you’re close to being on the home stretch?

But for many people it's an ongoing process & not black or white. If we finish the season terribly the majority will want him gone. If we then win the 1st 5 games of next season, many will want him tied to a longer contract. But if we then lost 5 on the spin he'll be "streaky Liam".

When results aren't great it's hard to imagine things turning round.  In Jordan's 1st full season he got us to the semi final of the cup, but we were rubbish in the league (it improved at the end when we bought Super Bob). I defy anyone thay watched us a lot that season to honestly say that it felt like we were on the cusp of something great... cos it really didn't & if you take the line "the cup doesn't count" Jordan could have been sacked as he'd taken us backwards (we got in the PO's with a late charge the season before).

I doubt if anyone is really convinced by Manning at this juncture but for me we are still at the wait & see stage.

Edited February 27 by TDarwall

[Big Cheese]

9 hours ago, Mendip City said:

His criticism of the players is a massive gamble. Only two weeks after those same players were outstanding against Southampton…. Should the players not like what he’s said, it’ll end badly. 

His interviews and comments after games send me to sleep, so is this our problem? That his team talk before a game doesn't motivate or inspire the players, and quite the opposite,  bores and sends them half to sleep,would explain some of our recent performances.