So what has happened after we beat Saints?

[reddogkev]

Having this chat at the game yesterday and can't figure out what's changed after that quality home win.

Since then we've turned in the three worst city games we've seen for years.

But after Southampton, the mood on here was bouyant and the future looked rosy, play offs were being spoke about with relish.

How can it all change around so quickly?  The sudden drop off seems almost impossible tbh!!!!

[Sir Geoff]

Southampton was a one off where the players raised themselves because they were on TV. Same as the cup games. The malaise has been going on since before Southampton.

[Aaron-Bcfc]

Lower sides in the division are completely comfortable sitting in and defending against our slow, “progressive” football. Compile that with defensive errors every game at the other end and it’s a recipe for disaster.

[Natchfever]

3 minutes ago, Aaron-Bcfc said:

Lower sides in the division are completely comfortable sitting in and defending against our slow, “progressive” football. Compile that with defensive errors every game at the other end and it’s a recipe for disaster.

This.

Better sides take it to us and we have to revert to Pearsonball on the counter.

Teams know how to play us now and Manning doesnt know how to counter that.

 

[Wedontplayinblue]

17 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

Southampton was a one off where the players raised themselves because they were on TV. Same as the cup games. The malaise has been going on since before Southampton.

I don’t think being on tv makes a blind bit of difffence for players anymore 

[IAmNick]

In the three games following Southampton, we made 584, 422, and 537 short passes. We had 0 chances in all 3 games from counter attacks (according to whoscored).

Against Southampton we made 277 short passes. We had 4 chances from counter attacks in that game alone.

What changed? Well we played football that suited us against Southampton, football the players knew and had been bought to play. Closer to Nige's football.

We went back to Manning's football after that.

[Super]

22 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

Southampton was a one off where the players raised themselves because they were on TV. Same as the cup games. The malaise has been going on since before Southampton.

Roll on Tuesday then!

[Numero Uno]

28 minutes ago, reddogkev said:

Having this chat at the game yesterday and can't figure out what's changed after that quality home win.

Since then we've turned in the three worst city games we've seen for years.

But after Southampton, the mood on here was bouyant and the future looked rosy, play offs were being spoke about with relish.

How can it all change around so quickly?  The sudden drop off seems almost impossible tbh!!!!

Decent tactical managers with less talented teams at their disposal than Martin have worked out that our manager is a one trick pony and set up their sides accordingly and took the three points right out of the babies hand.

Edited March 3 by Numero Uno

[One Team]

I think Southampton and Boro were the blip in our performances and results. Everything else before and after is the Manning norm.

[italian dave]

2 minutes ago, One Team said:

I think Southampton and Boro were the blip in our performances and results. Everything else before and after is the Manning norm.

And Forest. And West Ham. And Coventry. And Watford. And Hull. And Boro at home. All blips?

[Offside]

27 minutes ago, Aaron-Bcfc said:

Lower sides in the division are completely comfortable sitting in and defending against our slow, “progressive” football. Compile that with defensive errors every game at the other end and it’s a recipe for disaster.

Absolutely. Yesterday Cardiff (same as the QPR game) didn’t really have to work hard to beat us. They just pressed us into losing the ball, which we did frequently because we don’t have the quality or movement to retain possession, and waited for set piece opportunities. The outcome was so predictable. 

[Numero Uno]

3 minutes ago, italian dave said:

And Forest. And West Ham. And Coventry. And Watford. And Hull. And Boro at home. All blips?

If we list out the games where we were crap it’s a longer list……..if we ignore cup games that win you sod all points he’s done very poorly with a squad that shouldn’t be looking over it’s shoulders at this point of the season.

Edited March 3 by Numero Uno

[Numero Uno]

As people say you can use stats any way you like. The most POSITIVE stat on our current form is 6 points in 5 games, nine points since Boxing Day is the worst. Not very inspiring is it?

[Alessandro]

Simply put, Southampton was the anomaly.

It was a Pearson-esque style performance, ironically perhaps the kind we might have seen more often under NP if he hadn't been fired and had a fitter squad and a Jan window.

It's was a mirage IMO.

Even the "cup run" - 1 win in 4 games against weakened premier league opposition. 

Think we all wanted Manning to help us kick on, but he's giving us very little to shout about.

[Back of the Dolman]

11 minutes ago, italian dave said:

And Forest. And West Ham. And Coventry. And Watford. And Hull. And Boro at home. All blips?

Don’t get blinded by West Ham, David Moyes wouldn’t have had half of that team at Ashton Gate in his side if he hadn’t had to.

We won 1-0 because of a  poor pass back from one of their centre backs.

West Ham won their first game of 2024 on Monday night against Brentford and then followed it up with a victory at Everton.

That side including Bowen, Kudus, Paqueta and Alvarez would have torn us a new one 

Edited March 3 by Back of the Dolman

[Mr Popodopolous]

Others good stats include:

*Of the last 4 Home League games, 3 1-0 defeats.

*Of the last 11 League games, failed to score in 5.

*Manning Day 1, 11 points above the drop, 4 off 6th.

*Now 6 off the drop, 12 off 6th..not quite a reversal but not far off.

Edited March 3 by Mr Popodopolous

[Gol]

9 minutes ago, italian dave said:

And Forest. And West Ham. And Coventry. And Watford. And Hull. And Boro at home. All blips?

All games where the opposition took the game to us, had more of the ball than is which allowed us space in behind to counterattack.

[italian dave]

10 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

If we list out the games where we were crap it’s a longer list……..if we ignore cup games that win you sod all points he’s done very poorly with a squad that shouldn’t be looking over it’s shoulders at this point of the season.

That maybe so. But it's not the point I'm making. Which is that there are more than just two games where we've had a good result and/or performance.

We're inconsistent. As we have been for several years now. We have crap games. We have good games. We have in between games.

It's just this black and white everything Maning does is bad, every failure is his, any success is due to something else - TV, NP's legacy or whatever that I find nonsensical. 

Edit - and add David Moyes to the list of 'other reasons' from @Back of the Dolman 

Edited March 3 by italian dave

[Numero Uno]

9 minutes ago, Offside said:

Absolutely. Yesterday Cardiff (same as the QPR game) didn’t really have to work hard to beat us. They just pressed us into losing the ball, which we did frequently because we don’t have the quality or movement to retain possession, and waited for set piece opportunities. The outcome was so predictable. 

It was a depressingly low quality game below Championship standard and even worse, bar TGH forearm smashing Perry Ng by accident there certainly wasn’t a tackle worthy of a Severnside Derby. In fact those two looked to be the only players on the pitch who realised what the stakes were. Other players were laughing and joking…..I realise they know each other, have their Whatapp groups and are probably mates in many instances but for Christ sake put that to the side for 90 minutes………show the fans that it matters ffs!!

[eardun]

1 minute ago, italian dave said:

That maybe so. But it's not the point I'm making. Which is that there are more than just two games where we've had a good result and/or performance.

We're inconsistent. As we have been for several years now. We have crap games. We have good games. We have in between games.

It's just this black and white everything Maning does is bad, every failure is his, any success is due to something else - TV, NP's legacy or whatever that I find nonsensical. 

Agree. Which is why - as I’ve said on a different thread - we are a mid table team. Unless we get better players - or the younger players improve their consistency - we will continue to be a mid table team. 

[lenred]

4 minutes ago, italian dave said:

Edit - and add David Moyes to the list of 'other reasons' from @Back of the Dolman 

So you’re disagreeing that West Ham didnt have their best players playing?

Edited March 3 by lenred

[Bris Red]

All this was predicted by many on here when Manning came in including myself.

We just don't have the players here at the football club to play the way Manning wants to play, i personally didn't believe it would be quite this bad though and had hoped he would have had a plan B.

He clearly doesn't and cannot adapt to the players we have, its a painful watch and he will need transfer window after transfer window to get the players he wants and maybe then we will start to see progression.  

It's another huge re-set and re-build job despite what the boy and Tinnion said to fans.

 

Edited March 3 by Bris Red

[Back of the Dolman]

2 minutes ago, italian dave said:

That maybe so. But it's not the point I'm making. Which is that there are more than just two games where we've had a good result and/or performance.

We're inconsistent. As we have been for several years now. We have crap games. We have good games. We have in between games.

It's just this black and white everything Maning does is bad, every failure is his, any success is due to something else - TV, NP's legacy or whatever that I find nonsensical. 

Edit - and add David Moyes to the list of 'other reasons' from @Back of the Dolman 

So you think we’d of beaten a full strength West Ham that night ?

I also don’t think it’s so much about the inconsistency, it’s about the manner of the defeats and the style of football that’s going with it.

I want to feel like the manager/head coach actually cares and has some fire in his belly and LM gives none of that even by his own admission.

I think many of us liked the spirit and work ethic of this squad even if it didn’t bring success as it looked like they cared as we do, but sadly that now seems to be on the wane.

we excused some of the lack of ability because they showed heart but now I see no player who’s showing any greater technical ability but the spirit seems shot 

[Spike]

38 minutes ago, reddogkev said:

Having this chat at the game yesterday and can't figure out what's changed after that quality home win.

Since then we've turned in the three worst city games we've seen for years.

But after Southampton, the mood on here was bouyant and the future looked rosy, play offs were being spoke about with relish.

How can it all change around so quickly?  The sudden drop off seems almost impossible tbh!!!!

I think it's simple and I don't understand why people can't see what the issue is.

Southampton were full of confidence and came out playing a very open and aggressive set up, they didn't sit back in numbers, they didn't overload their wide positions when defending and simply put it suited us down to the ground as we got success in the areas we've been coached to play, down the sides and switching the play. Southampton didn't close down either of these areas which opened up the game and allowed us to play the style of football Manning likes us to play.

With QPR and Wednesday they both set up to nullify our space on the wings by doubling up and denying the inside passing lanes forcing us to keep going backwards and switch the side we attacked on. As we switched sides they would transition with the ball keeping their shape and denying us space to play our attacking football.

After watching those two games I thought to myself, that's our issue, we can't attack if we don't mix it up through the middle rather than the bring it back to the back line and switch sides until something opens up so I presumed that Manning would identify the issue and change our approach if Cardiff set up the same way. I was completely wrong, Cardiff set up the same way and we spent the entirety of the match trying the same thing over and over again until we got desperate in the last 10 minutes and started throwing ourselves forward which then changed how Cardiff had to defend and gave us more success in getting forward and applying pressure.

Yesterday summed up Mannings lack of ability to read the game for me, to play two full matches and struggle due to the way the opposition set up and then go into a third game and not have any kind of counter-plan for the same situation just screams inept. We had chances yesterday and when I watched the game and when I look back on them they're largely from loose ball situations turning into a fast direct line to goal which was what Pearson put into place, our best moments came from playing the football that Manning is trying to replace and for me that's the most frustrating part.

I'm oddly optimistic about the Ipswich game as I think they may actually look to bring the game to us which, in turn, would benefit us because then they wouldn't be set up to defend the wide positions and look to disposses us coming inside. It would also give us more space to work the ball in the manner that Manning sets us up to play. I do think we're going to find more luck against the better teams because they focus more on attacking than their defending whereas teams like QPR, Wednesday and Cardiff were all about defending in numbers, cutting off options and trying to pinch a goal on the counter.

The one thing I worry about more than anything right now is the players, there are signs that they are not enjoying the new system and I can see them losing faith in it quickly at this rate and Manning has already made it clear that he has no desire to change anything he does. 

[italian dave]

1 minute ago, lenred said:

So you’re disagreeing that West Ham had all of their best players playing?

Of course I'm not. But you can come up with "what if"s  about every single game if you want to.

What if we'd been given that penalty shout yesterday, or not had the goal disallowed at the end. What if Wednesday had had the red card they should have early on, and if we'd been given the clear handball pen near the end. What if Twine hadn't got injured. What if Sykes had stayed fit. I could go on.

Pretty much every single game that gets played will have reasons someone can point to why something might have been different. And if you want to you can pick every single one that's a reason to slate Manning, and ignore every single one doesn't fit that agenda. 

[eardun]

I’m also concerned that the players will be losing confidence - the booing won’t help that - such that we will no longer have the confidence to play like we did against Southampton against a team that attacks us. Tues will be interesting. 

Edited March 3 by eardun

[Numero Uno]

5 minutes ago, eardun said:

Agree. Which is why - as I’ve said on a different thread - we are a mid table team. Unless we get better players - or the younger players improve their consistency - we will continue to be a mid table team. 

Our record since the final whistle blew on Boxing Day is one of a bottom three team, not a mid-table one. That’s not really cherry picking, it’s  far too many games for comfort, a quarter of a season in fact, to be saying that. A similar record over the last nine games sees us avoid relegation by the skin of our teeth. That puts it all into perspective for me.

[italian dave]

5 minutes ago, Back of the Dolman said:

So you think we’d of beaten a full strength West Ham that night ?

I also don’t think it’s so much about the inconsistency, it’s about the manner of the defeats and the style of football that’s going with it.

I want to feel like the manager/head coach actually cares and has some fire in his belly and LM gives none of that even by his own admission.

I think many of us liked the spirit and work ethic of this squad even if it didn’t bring success as it looked like they cared as we do, but sadly that now seems to be on the wane.

we excused some of the lack of ability because they showed heart but now I see no player who’s showing any greater technical ability but the spirit seems shot 

Quite possibly not. Who knows? But I also think we'd have been much more likely to have won at least one of the last three if we'd had Twine and Sykes and Bell fit. 

[Back of the Dolman]

2 minutes ago, eardun said:

I’m also concerned that the players will be losing confidence - the booing won’t help that - such that we will no longer have the confidence to play like we did against Southampton again a team that attacks us. Tues will be interesting. 

I think it’s clear to see that there’s no confidence out on the pitch even before the booing.

[petehinton]

26 minutes ago, italian dave said:

And Forest. And West Ham. And Coventry. And Watford. And Hull. And Boro at home. All blips?

Forest where we again created nothing, West Ham good against a side who didn’t want to be out there, Coventry good, Watford & Hull, really? Extremely average again. 
 

Those who says everything is rosy because we were excellent against Saints (which we were), must have their heads explode when they find out Nathan Jones’ Southampton beat Man City last season.