What If We beat Ipswich Convincingly? Forum Confusion?

[MarcusX]

1 hour ago, ExiledAjax said:

I think you need to see a win achieved through change. A win through bloody minded stubbornness would suggest a win through fortune.

But if we see something different tried tomorrow, and that something delivers a positive outcome (and I'd actually class a draw away to Ipswich as positive) then that would be encouraging.

I am reminded of the time in late 2022 when Pearson was persisting with a back 3. A significant number of fans were at that time fed up with him and wanted him out. IIRC we even had talk of a protest and even, most shocking of all, an OTIB poll where a majority wanted him sacked. However he eventually relented, changed to a back 4, and we went on a good run in January and February 2023.

I do believe that this can be turned around, but it will require the flexibility of approach that has been missing.

Edit. I see @Silvio Dante has posted something similar above.

I think we will see something different to the last three games, but it won't be through choice. Ipswich will dominate possession and we'll have to press and play on the counter. Arguably we're better at that, but it won't be by design.

FWIW as an overall Pearson fan, I was questioning him that Xmas/New Year and wasn't sure he could turn it around - but he did.

I'm not calling for Manning's head yet, I'd love to see him turn it around. I'd actually love to watch a City side play "manning ball" possession and dominate teams and be successful if he can do it.

I haven't seen any evidence he can actually turn it around though, or provide a plan b or c through design as opposed to just coming up against better teams who stop us playing.

[REDOXO]

17 minutes ago, Southend Blue said:

The game at Plymouth on Saturday was quite pedestrian during the entire first half.     It were almost like both clubs were still at League One level rather than meeting at a higher division.     We were largely poor and ineffective and looked nothing like a team going for promotion to the premier league.    In the end we were value for the win based on evidence of the second 45 but point being we sometimes, or often, only perform during one half rather than  the other.     If City are going to win tomorrow that's where you can take advantage or capitalise, it's an area of the game where we can be got at or vulnerable to opposition teams.     It doesn't happen always, but often enough.

It's too bad from a Robins perspective you're not playing us 5 or 6 weeks back as then we were playing nowhere like we can and dropping points often.   Some were even questioning McKenna's leadership credentials or choice of manager but lo and behold we've turned it around last few weeks and back on course for something outstanding.    Fans and results can be fickle but there you have it.

Thing is with us although we're doing great again the potential is there to really put opposition teams to the sword by way of scoring goals but the manager ALWAYS picks one forward attacker where I could for instance include 2 or 3 others and the rewards could really work for us.    I mean we could play Moore, Jackson, Sarmiento / Al Hamadi going directly forward and see where it takes us but McKenna just wouldn't entertain it.

The potential is there to do greater damage than we can or have but with Chaplin not utilised in midfield (he's a forward by rights) and others like Hirst and Broadhead afflicted by injury so they can't be involved right now we have to go with what we have.     To cut a long story short there's no guarantees in this game, results and predictions are always subject to change so there's no reason why Bristol City can't take something from the trip tomorrow.     Just remember two words - Maidstone United.       All things are possible on the day.  

 

Maidstone are way better than we are. 
 

Im hoping we can scrape something but I don’t think we will. Mr Manning has turned us from a decent team four points off the play offs, with injuries, into utter utter utter rubbish! 
 

[Redrascal2]

It is never going to happen.

[The Original OTIB]

It's just a communication thing. Players and coach need to be speaking the same language, singing form the same hymn sheet and whatnot. Quite simple:

 

[IAmNick]

9 minutes ago, The Original OTIB said:

Are we crap or not? This is all getting terribly confusing now ...

Yeah we're really crap, but there are better ways to measure it than comparing the number of points off the playoffs we are 20 games apart!

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 minute ago, IAmNick said:

Yeah we're really crap, but there are better ways to measure it than comparing the number of points off the playoffs we are 20 games apart!

However had we retained the level, that's not crap it is respectable and continuing steady progress.

[Major Isewater]

1 hour ago, ExiledAjax said:

I think you need to see a win achieved through change. A win through bloody minded stubbornness would suggest a win through fortune.

But if we see something different tried tomorrow, and that something delivers a positive outcome (and I'd actually class a draw away to Ipswich as positive) then that would be encouraging.

I am reminded of the time in late 2022 when Pearson was persisting with a back 3. A significant number of fans were at that time fed up with him and wanted him out. IIRC we even had talk of a protest and even, most shocking of all, an OTIB poll where a majority wanted him sacked. However he eventually relented, changed to a back 4, and we went on a good run in January and February 2023.

I do believe that this can be turned around, but it will require the flexibility of approach that has been missing.

Edit. I see @Silvio Dante has posted something similar above.

Basically Manning needs to listen to us if he wants to succeed. 

[Robbored]

Ipswich will come at us and that might leave space on the counter so you never know - I won’t be holding my breath tho.

I’d take a point right now.

[Rossi the Robin]

I’m not saying we will win, but we will see a better performance because they won’t need breaking down as much.

As we all know, have counter attacking type players

[REDOXO]

5 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Ipswich will come at us and that might leave space on the counter so you never know - I won’t be holding my breath tho.

I’d take a point right now.

If they score I’m fairly confident we will fold. But hey like your optimism!

[fishy]

What if the moon explodes?  Its so unlikely to happen its irrelevant. 

[The Original OTIB]

4 minutes ago, fishy said:

What if the moon explodes?  Its so unlikely to happen its irrelevant. 

Hmm ... 

[The Original OTIB]

2 minutes ago, The Original OTIB said:

Hmm ... 

 

7 minutes ago, fishy said:

What if the moon explodes?  Its so unlikely to happen its irrelevant. 

Would really bugger up our axial tilt mind. Bit like Manning's tactics.

[Roger Red Hat]

7 minutes ago, fishy said:

What if the moon explodes?

A nice crumbly Cheshire cheese mmmmm..

[The Original OTIB]

1 minute ago, Roger Red Hat said:

A nice crumbly Cheshire cheese mmmmm..

[Roger Red Hat]

1 minute ago, The Original OTIB said:

Crackin'.

[The Original OTIB]

58 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Put it this way, tomorrow night is on Sky tv.

One think SL doesn’t like is being made to look a fool.  And if it’s by Mark Ashton too….

So why does he expend so much time and effort into creating the perfect conditions to achieve that very thing?

[Bazooka Joe]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Put it this way, tomorrow night is on Sky tv.

One think SL doesn’t like is being made to look a fool.  And if it’s by Mark Ashton too….

Unfortunately, that ship sailed quite some time ago.

The man has been living in a fool's paradise, aided by similar fools, but annoyingly for him, the fans ain't no fools.

A fool like him is only tolerable if he is successfool.

 

[Supersonic Robin]

Firstly, I wouldn't be that shocked to see us pick up point(s) either tomorrow or in another of our theoretically challenging games.

Under Manning, we've actually done very well against teams above us in the table. It's our record against bottom half sides which is problematic (3 points from 30!).

In terms of forum response, it'll likely be the same dramatic overreactions as always.
If we win, we'll see posts about how we can push on for top 6.
If we lose, we'll see posts about how we won't pick up another point all season and get relegated.

[ExiledAjax]

2 hours ago, MarcusX said:

I think we will see something different to the last three games, but it won't be through choice. Ipswich will dominate possession and we'll have to press and play on the counter. Arguably we're better at that, but it won't be by design.

...

I haven't seen any evidence he can actually turn it around though, or provide a plan b or c through design as opposed to just coming up against better teams who stop us playing.

And this is what I'm driving at. I think for him to win himself some credit he's going to need a game (or three) where we demonstrate something activity different, and it yields a positive result. 

I agree that if what we see is an "accidental" win/draw then people won't be satisfied with that.

I can't really believe that a coach of 17 years experience, who's been in the City Football Group, who's managed in the EFL, can be truly so one dimensional as to have absolutely zero confidence in playing a plan B. We've seen him use different styles, back 3, back 4. Not all been pretty but he's clearly not entirely incapable of doing something a bit different.

Tomorrow will be intriguing. It's always interesting.

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 minutes ago, Supersonic Robin said:

Firstly, I wouldn't be that shocked to see us pick up point(s) either tomorrow or in another of our theoretically challenging games.

Under Manning, we've actually done very well against teams above us in the table. It's our record against bottom half sides which is problematic (3 points from 30!).

In terms of forum response, it'll likely be the same dramatic overreactions as always.
If we win, we'll see posts about how we can push on for top 6.
If we lose, we'll see posts about how we won't pick up another point all season and get relegated.

Reaction in the ground at full time makes me think it will take quite a bit more than a coupon busting win at Ipswich to soothe doubters again.

"Dramatic overreactions??" Some can be but that is rather airy..

[Supersonic Robin]

5 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Reaction in the ground at full time makes me think it will take quite a bit more than a coupon busting win at Ipswich to soothe doubters again.

"Dramatic overreactions??" Some can be but that is rather airy..

It wouldn't convert the doubters, I agree, but bear in mind we have many fans who aren't currently doubters. A few do genuinely seem to see Manning as a progressive coach moving us in the right direction (and though they might not admit it, I think their favourite thing about him is simply the fact he's not Pearson). After the Southampton game, some were talking about top 6 - it really doesn't take much.

And yes, dramatic overreactions. IMO, almost every mention of us potentially being promoted or relegated in the last few years has been an overreaction.

[MelksRed]

Key word in the initial question is if!

Feel like we are a spent force - too predictable,  teams set up to stifle us.... no alternative way of playing...

I'm rapidly losing interest....

[Johnr1986]

What if we beat Ipswich convincingly?

we won’t !

[Grey Fox]

If we beat Ipswich , we only need one more win for 50 points, if we lose we will need two more wins ( which we will get) , either way this season is over, roll on 24/25 and pray we will , just for once , be better than mediocre.

[ExiledAjax]

On 04/03/2024 at 13:40, Silvio Dante said:

If we win tomorrow, it’s an anecdote not data.

It should change nothing.

If it’s the start of a sustained turnaround with good game management, square pegs in square holes, Anis Mehmeti left somewhere on the M4 and the game played to our strengths then that’s a different matter.

So we didn't win Silvio. Did we see enough of a difference in approach? I am not sure we did. 

Maybe we were a bit more direct, a little bit less "tappy tappy" round the back? But ten I look at our passes and still 2/3rds were in our half, and only 17 long balls...so I'm not sure that stacks up.

@Davefevs any thoughts on style and whether it changed?

Or was the good stuff we saw just an example of our fixed methods working against a team that plays like Ipswich?

[Silvio Dante]

1 minute ago, ExiledAjax said:

So we didn't win Silvio. Did we see enough of a difference in approach? I am not sure we did. 

Maybe we were a bit more direct, a little bit less "tappy tappy" round the back? But ten I look at our passes and still 2/3rds were in our half, and only 17 long balls...so I'm not sure that stacks up.

@Davefevs any thoughts on style and whether it changed?

Or was the good stuff we saw just an example of our fixed methods working against a team that plays like Ipswich?

I’m not sure we did either - it wasn’t really a marked change in style, it was more containment (and don’t get me wrong, it worked well). I’ve put on another post the “biggest bit” was again the lack of game management and adaptability has been my biggest concern since day one (one day I’ll pull all my post match comments under Liam - there’s a theme!) - we set up pretty well and contained them, the issue was that when Ipswich changed tack - mainly the added pace - we didn’t react.
 

And to be clear, that’s on Liam - a blind man with a bag over his head would have known a not fully fit Pring would either need changing or additional support against Burns (harsh on Mehmeti to take him off maybe but Roberts being brought on post Conway goal if not earlier would have made sense)

Better performance - expected, we had less of the ball. Fatal flaw of game management remained.

[GrahamC]

7 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

I’m not sure we did either - it wasn’t really a marked change in style, it was more containment (and don’t get me wrong, it worked well). I’ve put on another post the “biggest bit” was again the lack of game management and adaptability has been my biggest concern since day one (one day I’ll pull all my post match comments under Liam - there’s a theme!) - we set up pretty well and contained them, the issue was that when Ipswich changed tack - mainly the added pace - we didn’t react.
 

And to be clear, that’s on Liam - a blind man with a bag over his head would have known a not fully fit Pring would either need changing or additional support against Burns (harsh on Mehmeti to take him off maybe but Roberts being brought on post Conway goal if not earlier would have made sense)

Better performance - expected, we had less of the ball. Fatal flaw of game management remained.

As usual I agree 100%.

I fully accept that our options from the bench are fairly pitiful when compared with the vast majority of opponents (thanks Tinnion) but at 2-2 & all the momentum with Ipswich doing nothing wasn’t an option.

Said last night I’d have brought on King (TGH was increasingly anonymous as the game went on, not for the first time) & Roberts for Mehmeti (harsh but he was tiring & we were getting overrun).

No point in bringing on Mebude (thanks again Tinnion) might as well have stuck Bajic on outfield but he should have done something, he didn’t.
 

Edited March 6 by GrahamC

[ExiledAjax]

1 hour ago, Silvio Dante said:

I’m not sure we did either - it wasn’t really a marked change in style, it was more containment (and don’t get me wrong, it worked well). I’ve put on another post the “biggest bit” was again the lack of game management and adaptability has been my biggest concern since day one (one day I’ll pull all my post match comments under Liam - there’s a theme!) - we set up pretty well and contained them, the issue was that when Ipswich changed tack - mainly the added pace - we didn’t react.
 

And to be clear, that’s on Liam - a blind man with a bag over his head would have known a not fully fit Pring would either need changing or additional support against Burns (harsh on Mehmeti to take him off maybe but Roberts being brought on post Conway goal if not earlier would have made sense)

Better performance - expected, we had less of the ball. Fatal flaw of game management remained.

Thanks. I'm minded to agree and I'd actually add, by way of moving the conversation along a little, that in addition to the persistent failure to react, we're also not seeing proactive changes.

We're not seeing Manning/Hogg taking the initiative and make changes that force the opposition to react to us. 

Why must we always be the ones to react? Why can we not anticipate that, for example, Burns might come on last night, and proactively strengthen the left side in anticipation. Or make a change elsewhere that asks Ipswich a different question. Perhaps doing either could even changes McKenna's thoughts and he doesn't bring Burns on.

I don't think chances should be limited to reactions. That was always my biggest criticism of Johnson, and at times Pearson. I'd love to see Bristol City being the team that takes initiative, acts proactively, and forces the opposition to react to us. 

It's not a silver bullet for success, but it would be something that we've not tried consistently for quite a while.

Edited March 6 by ExiledAjax

[Silvio Dante]

26 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Thanks. I'm minded to agree and I'd actually add, by way of moving the conversation along a little, that in addition to the persistent failure to react, we're also not seeing proactive changes.

We're not seeing Manning/Hogg taking the initiative and make changes that force the opposition to react to us. 

Why must we always be the ones to react? Why can we not anticipate that, for example, Burns might come on last night, and proactively strengthen the left side in anticipation. Or make a change elsewhere that asks Ipswich a different question. Perhaps doing either could even changes McKenna's thoughts and he doesn't bring Burns on.

I don't think chances should be limited to reactions. That was always my biggest criticism of Johnson, and at times Pearson. I'd love to see Bristol City being the team that takes initiative, acts proactively, and forces the opposition to react to us. 

It's not a silver bullet for success, but it would be something that we've not tried consistently for quite a while.

Does feed a lot into risk:reward. I’ve said a few times that I think Liam is a naturally cautious coach (cat and mouse anyone), and that means safety is the first option. So a lot of balls we play are 80:20 in our favour and it’s all formulaic. I think he’s reticent to be proactive because of that, and also because he genuinely thinks what he’s doing will eventually work.