Why have new managers struggled so much this season?

[WeAreThePigs]

I saw an interesting stat where every club in the bottom half of the champ have a different manager compared to the start of the season - with the majority sacked, yet not many clubs have had seen a huge bounce, and the ones who have were starting from such a low point that things couldn’t get much worse, I.e Sheff Wed and QPR.

Eustace is very highly rated yet has failed to win any of his first 8 games, Edwards, Beale, Moore and Rooney sacked after not having much time. BCFC and Plymouth fans calling for their managers heads after really poor runs. Birmingham and Stoke seen very little bounce. Swansea seem to be stabilising after a really poor start under their new manager. 
Why are new managers finding it so difficult this season? 

[And Its Smith]

Lots of articles written in the last year or so about the new manager bounce myth. Happens far less often than people think 

[WeAreThePigs]

Just now, And Its Smith said:

Lots of articles written in the last year or so about the new manager bounce myth. Happens far less often than people think 

Neil Harris seems to be the only one, and Millwall fans adamant they don’t want him staying.

[Roger Red Hat]

5 minutes ago, WeAreThePigs said:

Why are new managers finding it so difficult this season? 

Its the players and their misbehaviours.

[And Its Smith]

3 minutes ago, WeAreThePigs said:

Neil Harris seems to be the only one, and Millwall fans adamant they don’t want him staying.

I don’t blame them. Have had to watch pretty turgid football for many years 

[Silvio Dante]

It’s an interesting topic. I don’t necessarily think it’s new managers per se but the new “breed” of managers (i.e. coaches with limited playing experience) who are having a lot of trouble across the board, even having had some success elsewhere.

If you read the Oxford forum it’s a mirror of ours re Des Buckingham post Liam. I’d also throw in the new Notts County boss who came from Wealdstone and had no real playing background.

The compare/contrast here is Mousinho at Pompey. He’d be seen as included in that new breed, but had a solid if unspectacular playing career and was also the head of the PFA so you’d argue really understood the players mindset.

Rooney proves that being a great player doesn’t make you a great manager. But I think that there has been a trend to employing a certain type of coach. And there will be some that are good, but the law of diminishing returns is what you’re seeing.

[spudski]

Imo, they've all looked at the likes of Pep, read way too many coaching manuals, and are trying to play a style of football that is high risk, with often players that aren't suitable to a system and with a lot less technical ability, mental strength and less experience. 

Many over complicate matters. 

Looks impressive amongst their peers...but not so much on the pitch when trying to gain points. 

[Kid in the Riot]

5 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

It’s an interesting topic. I don’t necessarily think it’s new managers per se but the new “breed” of managers (i.e. coaches with limited playing experience) who are having a lot of trouble across the board, even having had some success elsewhere.

If you read the Oxford forum it’s a mirror of ours re Des Buckingham post Liam. I’d also throw in the new Notts County boss who came from Wealdstone and had no real playing background.

The compare/contrast here is Mousinho at Pompey. He’d be seen as included in that new breed, but had a solid if unspectacular playing career and was also the head of the PFA so you’d argue really understood the players mindset.

Rooney proves that being a great player doesn’t make you a great manager. But I think that there has been a trend to employing a certain type of coach. And there will be some that are good, but the law of diminishing returns is what you’re seeing.

You seem to have forgotten Kieran McKenna exists again.

When you say new breed of coaches with limited playing experience, I assume you are specifically talking about the past couple of years in order to validate your views on Manning?

As clearly there have been loads of successful coaches over the years with limited playing careers from Ron Noades, to Mourinho, to Sarri, to Brendan Rodgers etc 

[TDarwall]

Eustace is odd in that a)decent career, b) decent managerial Job @ Brum, c) not trying to play like Pep, yet struggling to get a tune out of what looks a 1/2 decent Blackburn squad.

[Silvio Dante]

1 minute ago, Kid in the Riot said:

You seem to have forgotten Kieran McKenna exists again.

When you say new breed of coaches with limited playing experience, I assume you are specifically talking about the past couple of years in order to validate your views on Manning?

As clearly there have been loads of successful coaches over the years with limited playing careers from Ron Noades, to Mourinho, to Sarri, to Brendan Rodgers etc 

Not everything has to be about Manning. 

And no, I didn’t forget Kieran McKenna. KM did however spend significant time in and around the Man Utd first team. Mourinho spent a lot of time with Bobby Robson as translator then latterly assistant at a high level.

Coaches with no playing experience can be great. Coaches with loads of playing experience can be rubbish. But there is an undeniable trend towards employing coaches with more “book” background, and it’s notable that coaches such as Edwards, Buckingham, Foster etc have struggled.

But yeah, fee free to bring it around to Manning if you want to derail the thread!

[WeAreThePigs]

12 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

It’s an interesting topic. I don’t necessarily think it’s new managers per se but the new “breed” of managers (i.e. coaches with limited playing experience) who are having a lot of trouble across the board, even having had some success elsewhere.

If you read the Oxford forum it’s a mirror of ours re Des Buckingham post Liam. I’d also throw in the new Notts County boss who came from Wealdstone and had no real playing background.

The compare/contrast here is Mousinho at Pompey. He’d be seen as included in that new breed, but had a solid if unspectacular playing career and was also the head of the PFA so you’d argue really understood the players mindset.

Rooney proves that being a great player doesn’t make you a great manager. But I think that there has been a trend to employing a certain type of coach. And there will be some that are good, but the law of diminishing returns is what you’re seeing.

Don’t think this is the case, you can’t pick and choose….Williams did well at Notts County and had less of a playing career than their new manager - Houllier Moutinho etc, McKenna in the champ.

[cidercity1987]

A lot of the managers leaving were actually getting the most out of their squad. Pearson, Mowbray, Jon Dahl, Eustace Brum, all spring to mind.

There is no bounce as there is no improvement to have. 

Plus the new breed of coaches as mentioned maybe it takes too much time to communicate their ideas whereas the old man manager would come in and immediately get success from a more bonded team

[TDarwall]

I often think there is a touch of alchemy to managerial appointments. Sometimes you just get a combo of right manager @ right club @ the right time.  Had Cotts joined us 12 months earlier, how would he have done?

Danny Wilson got Bansley to the top flight in his 1st managerial gig but couldn't get us promoted to the 2nd level on arguably a bigger budget. 

Who would have guessed G'ON would make such a brilliant start but will he be able to replicate it at a bigger club with greater expectations?

 

[TV Tom]

You could argue that the new managers at Sheff Weds, QPR, Millwall & Plymouth have all improved their teams

[Silvio Dante]

3 minutes ago, WeAreThePigs said:

Don’t think this is the case, you can’t pick and choose….Williams did well at Notts County and had less of a playing career than their new manager - Houllier Moutinho etc, McKenna in the champ.

See above. In some cases it’s levels - Williams did well in NL with County but struggled with Swansea to date (but FWIW he does seem a fit with them). The ideal is to have the coaching ability with the psychology understanding - Mourinho had that but it was gleaned by a lot of background with Robson. McKenna as I said in and around the first team at Mancs.

Again, there will be good coaches with no playing background. The problem is diminishing returns - and to be clear, that happens whichever “sector” you choose. It’s why it annoys me when people say “we should get a German coach” because (say) Klopp, Farke, Wagner do well. Thats all that’s going on here - a load of coaches of an “ilk” are being appointed and naturally the coach who is 25th on the scale isn’t as good as number 1,2 or 3

[GrahamC]

3 minutes ago, TV Tom said:

You could argue that the new managers at Sheff Weds, QPR, Millwall & Plymouth have all improved their teams

Plymouth?

You might want to look at their recent form..

First two definitely.

[cidered abroad]

28 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

It’s an interesting topic. I don’t necessarily think it’s new managers per se but the new “breed” of managers (i.e. coaches with limited playing experience) who are having a lot of trouble across the board, even having had some success elsewhere.

If you read the Oxford forum it’s a mirror of ours re Des Buckingham post Liam. I’d also throw in the new Notts County boss who came from Wealdstone and had no real playing background.

The compare/contrast here is Mousinho at Pompey. He’d be seen as included in that new breed, but had a solid if unspectacular playing career and was also the head of the PFA so you’d argue really understood the players mindset.

Rooney proves that being a great player doesn’t make you a great manager. But I think that there has been a trend to employing a certain type of coach. And there will be some that are good, but the law of diminishing returns is what you’re seeing.

And we had a proven quality manager of his staff and players, yet the three clowns got rid of him to take on a total novice.

[Davefevs]

44 minutes ago, spudski said:

Imo, they've all looked at the likes of Pep, read way too many coaching manuals, and are trying to play a style of football that is high risk, with often players that aren't suitable to a system and with a lot less technical ability, mental strength and less experience. 

Many over complicate matters. 

Looks impressive amongst their peers...but not so much on the pitch when trying to gain points. 

I don’t think the style of football is high risk, but I get what you mean.  It’s “safe” football, low risk chance of being successful with our players.

Edited March 10 by Davefevs

[exAtyeoMax]

37 minutes ago, Roger Red Hat said:

Its the players and their misbehaviours.

too emotional 

[TV Tom]

1 minute ago, GrahamC said:

Plymouth?

You might want to look at their recent form..

First two definitely.

Agreed that their last 3 or 4 games haven't been great but they're in no worse position than when Schumacher was there, they've also managed to win away from HP a couple of times which Schumacher failed to do  

[exAtyeoMax]

35 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

You seem to have forgotten Kieran McKenna exists again.

When you say new breed of coaches with limited playing experience, I assume you are specifically talking about the past couple of years in order to validate your views on Manning?

As clearly there have been loads of successful coaches over the years with limited playing careers from Ron Noades, to Mourinho, to Sarri, to Brendan Rodgers etc 

does it make a difference if you're differentiating between working in League One or The Championship? I suppose I think of Kieran McKenna's situation being like Cotts, building the team in League One and seeing the results in The Championship. Time and trajectory, not always successful obviously but being able to build a squad/change a squad in League One must be easier than changing an existing one mid season in The Championship?

Edited March 10 by exAtyeoMax

[WeAreThePigs]

1 minute ago, TV Tom said:

Agreed that their last 3 or 4 games haven't been great but they're in no worse position than when Schumacher was there, they've also managed to win away from HP a couple of times which Schumacher failed to do  

They’re lower down in the table and closer to the relegation zone - not scoring goals and fans calling for the managers head. So I think you’re way off with this idea that they are in a better spot than under Schumacher.

3 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

does it make a difference if you're differentiating between working in League One or The Championship? I suppose I think of Kieran McKenna's situation being like Cotts, building the team in League One and seeing the results in The Championship. Time and trajectory, not always successful obviously but being able to build a squad/change a squad in League One must be easier than changing an existing one mid season?

I think along with momentum the Ipswich squad depth has made a huge diffeence - and the willingness to spend on wages.

[Kid in the Riot]

37 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

If you read the Oxford forum it’s a mirror of ours re Des Buckingham post Liam. 

 

21 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

Not everything has to be about Manning. 

But yeah, fee free to bring it around to Manning if you want to derail the thread!

I mean, if it wasn't obvious enough your point was being made about Manning, you did also specifically name him and Oxford in your post

[Silvio Dante]

1 minute ago, Kid in the Riot said:

 

I mean, if it wasn't obvious enough your point was being made about Manning, you did also specifically name him and Oxford in your post

With reference to Des Buckingham and how he’s struggled.

Grasping mate. If you want to have a Liam discussion feel free to populate one of the other 1500 threads on it. 

[TV Tom]

2 minutes ago, WeAreThePigs said:

They’re lower down in the table and closer to the relegation zone - not scoring goals and fans calling for the managers head. So I think you’re way off with this idea that they are in a better spot than under Schumacher.

I think along with momentum the Ipswich squad depth has made a huge diffeence - and the willingness to spend on wages.

Fair enough, the goals do seem to have dried up recently, Plymouth fans are a funny lot though, they wanted Ryan Lowe out a couple of seasons ago and he ended up getting them promoted from the basement that same season

[IAmNick]

Is it unusual this season? I feel like every season roughly half the division changes their manager and they're usually not all or even mostly all happy.

The number of managers who even have back to back success is quite rare too imo. Most we'd even consider reasonably successful have one success then two or three dud appointments. That's just how the game works, there are so, so many variables each time the consistent ones are almost non existent, especially at our level.

I think the truth is there's a huge amount of luck, both "on the day" and in them being in an environment they can work well in - people around them, players, facilities, expectations. That's not meant as a derogatory statement, luck is vitality important in success.

As someone above said, were Gary and Cotterill really a cut above other managers we've had? Or did the stars just align. In some ways it could equally be Wilson and McInness we're looking back fondly on as other teams do.

So the answer is - I don't think there really is an answer!

[Sir Geoff]

40 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

You seem to have forgotten Kieran McKenna exists again.

When you say new breed of coaches with limited playing experience, I assume you are specifically talking about the past couple of years in order to validate your views on Manning?

As clearly there have been loads of successful coaches over the years with limited playing careers from Ron Noades, to Mourinho, to Sarri, to Brendan Rodgers etc 

I would argue Mourinho, and Sarri were employed as managers, not coaches.

Is Mckenna Ipswich manager or Head coach ?

 

Edited March 10 by Sir Geoff
Extra text

[Kid in the Riot]

8 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

With reference to Des Buckingham and how he’s struggled.

Grasping mate. If you want to have a Liam discussion feel free to populate one of the other 1500 threads on it. 

Of which you'll have started about half of them

[Fuber]

41 minutes ago, TDarwall said:

Eustace is odd in that a)decent career, b) decent managerial Job @ Brum, c) not trying to play like Pep, yet struggling to get a tune out of what looks a 1/2 decent Blackburn squad.

Blackburn were always going to struggle this season after losing Brereton (for free) end of last season.

One too many players not sold when they should have been to maximise profit and reinvest. 

We did it right, yet are only three points ahead of them - so the key issue is either manager (Manning), or how we reinvested (Tinnion), or both.

[Roe]

The "manager / head coach" is arguably the most overhyped role in all of football. Far more important is the structure behind them and the players in front. You need all 3 of those parts to align to have success. We've got none at the moment