TC - Scotland

[Harry]

7 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Yep. 

Tommy had the chance of a life time to go to the Euros. He may never get that chance again. 

Put Tommy Conway in Coventrys team for example and he'll get 15-20 goals. 

Liam Manning has destroyed Tommy Conway. For anyone to suggest otherwise would be laughable. 

Manning came in and took Tommy aside and told him to stop being Tommy Conway, he wanted to mould him himself. This is indisputable facts. Both Tommy and LM have said this. 

Rather than playing to Tommy Conways strengths Liam Manning has done the total opposite. But thats because Liam Manning wants to be the guy that gets the plaudits. He wants to be attributed with turning Conway into a different type of player. 

Conway will leave here in the summer because of this with £s knocked off his value. 

To be fair to Tommy he has tried to buy into Mannings methods but it just does not suit the type of player he is. 

I for one don't blame the lad at all for wanting out of this shit show.

Manning has cost him a place at the Euros and I feel angry for the lad that he has been treated like this. 

 

Good lord! I’ve never read such hyperbolic tripe!! 
Yes, he may well score 15-20 goals for Cov. But that still wouldn’t have risen him from 6th or 7th choice to 3rd choice. 
He could already have 12 goals had he buried his one v one chances. 
And just because he may score 15-20 for Coventry has no relevance to how many he’d score for us. Under both managers we’ve had this season, we wouldn’t score as many goals as Coventry. So if you’re to blame Manning for a lack of goals then Pearson is as equally responsible, as would be Tinnion and the recruitment team for putting together a squad that can only play one way and lacks firepower. 
If Conway was good enough for the Scotland squad he’d have been called up. Truth is, whichever manager we have here, Tommy is not quite at that level yet and there are 5 or 6 players ahead of him for that squad. 

[W-S-M Seagull]

1 hour ago, Rob k said:

My god, i know Mannings not popular but this is scrapping the Barrel. If TC was a regular for the national team prior to Manning then fair enough, but he’s never had a call up ever. He’s 21, if he doesn’t get another chance to go to a Euros then that would suggest he wasn’t ever good enough, time will tell on that one. As Harry says, he’s missed a lot of chances this season and that’s on him not Manning.   As for being one of the best strikers in this division….he’s miles off currently 

No its facts. 

Had Conway of had a good season then he'd be going to the Euros. 

He probably won't get another chance because Scotland may not qualify again. That's the point I was making. 

It's absolutely ridiculous and absurd for anyone to suggest that a striker should score every chance they have. Even Haaland misses chances jeez. 

I don't think the xG backs up any claims that he missed sitters.

We can't suddenly expect strikers to score every chance we provide them with simply because we provide them with so little. That's a unreal expectation. Real life football isn't a video game. 

Once again, put Conway in a team like Coventry, he scored 15-20 easily. 

Edited March 21 by W-S-M Seagull

[Rob k]

17 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

No its facts. 

Had Conway of had a good season then he'd be going to the Euros. 

He probably won't get another chance because Scotland may not qualify again. That's the point I was making. 

It's absolutely ridiculous and absurd for anyone to suggest that a striker should score every chance they have. Even Haaland misses chances jeez. 

I don't think the xG backs up any claims that he missed sitters.

We can't suddenly expect strikers to score every chance we provide them with simply because we provide them with so little. That's a unreal expectation. Real life football isn't a video game. 

Once again, put Conway in a team like Coventry, he scored 15-20 easily. 

It’s not facts as he’s never once been called up to the senior squad. If he had been playing for the senior side prior to the last 25 games or so then you would have a point but he hasn’t. Therefore its not a fact and just a way of having a dig at LM. 

[W-S-M Seagull]

7 minutes ago, Rob k said:

It’s not facts as he’s never once been called up to the senior squad. If he had been playing for the senior side prior to the last 25 games or so then you would have a point but he hasn’t. Therefore its not a fact and just a way of having a dig at LM. 

If Conway would have scored 15-20 goals, he'd be going to the Euros. There is no ifs or buts about it. Have you seen their other strikers? 

No it's not a dig at LM. It's deserved criticism of how he has treated Tommy Conway. 

[Rob k]

1 minute ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

If Conway would have scored 15-20 goals, he'd be going to the Euros. There is no ifs or buts about it. Have you seen their other strikers? 

No it's not a dig at LM. It's deserved criticism of how he has treated Tommy Conway. 

We disagree so we will leave it there. It will be interesting to see where he ends up after City. A good scout will know what he’s looking for in a young striker. 

[Harry]

9 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

If Conway would have scored 15-20 goals, he'd be going to the Euros. There is no ifs or buts about it. Have you seen their other strikers? 

No it's not a dig at LM. It's deserved criticism of how he has treated Tommy Conway. 

Ok. So which one of Adams, Dykes and Shankland does he replace? 

[W-S-M Seagull]

Man City have a conversion rate of 10.1% Pep OUT! 

Haaland has had 69 shots but only scored 18, absolutely pathetic. Non league player. 

 

[1960maaan]

Scotland U21 on YouTube tonight.

[Davefevs]

FWIW, I think if TC had had a scoring run after his high profile goals against West Ham, he might’ve got a call-up, at least to see what he’s about.

He has of course trained with the full squad.

No guarantees, but imho, Manning-ball has lost him a chance of getting picked.

[Harry]

30 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Man City have a conversion rate of 10.1% Pep OUT! 

Haaland has had 69 shots but only scored 18, absolutely pathetic. Non league player. 

 

Who’s saying anything about chance conversion rate. 
I’m not talking about half chances and scraps. I’m talking about 5 one v ones. Yes I wouldn’t expect anyone to score 100% of one v ones but it was certainly within Tommy’s gift to secure at least 3 or 4 more goals from these clear cut chances. 
 

Again I’ll ask you : which one of Adams, Dykes and Shankland was he due to replace had Pearson still been in charge and he’d scored 5 extra goals? 

[SydneyCity]

Scotland assistant coach, John Carver yesterday: 

“I think it is important you never stop looking and searching. That’s how it should be. If people think they are comfortable getting a place in the squad then they become relaxed. So we want to just make sure that there’s a competitive edge at that top end of the field… We will never stop looking. The young boy [Tommy] Conway at Bristol is another one, but he is doing really well with the Under-21s and they have got a big game coming up. He is one we have been looking at as well. It is good for the future. He is in there and I am guessing he has got around about a dozen goals at least. He scored a great goal against West Ham in the FA Cup. He is another youngster coming through.”

TC is not far off it, and a few more goal scoring opportunities, resulting in a few more goals could (not definitely) have clinched a call up - and Manningball has definitely reduced his chances.

It’s basic probability. More chances = more goals.

[Harry]

10 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

FWIW, I think if TC had had a scoring run after his high profile goals against West Ham, he might’ve got a call-up, at least to see what he’s about.

He has of course trained with the full squad.

No guarantees, but imho, Manning-ball has lost him a chance of getting picked.

But that “high profile” goal was scored under Manning?? 
How many more goals do you think would have been required to get him 3 or 4 levels up the pecking order? 

[Harry]

3 minutes ago, SydneyCity said:

Scotland assistant coach, John Carver yesterday: 

“I think it is important you never stop looking and searching. That’s how it should be. If people think they are comfortable getting a place in the squad then they become relaxed. So we want to just make sure that there’s a competitive edge at that top end of the field… We will never stop looking. The young boy [Tommy] Conway at Bristol is another one, but he is doing really well with the Under-21s and they have got a big game coming up. He is one we have been looking at as well. It is good for the future. He is in there and I am guessing he has got around about a dozen goals at least. He scored a great goal against West Ham in the FA Cup. He is another youngster coming through.”

TC is not far off it, and a few more goal scoring opportunities, resulting in a few more goals could (not definitely) have clinched a call up - and Manningball has definitely reduced his chances.

It’s basic probability. More chances = more goals.

How have his chances reduced when it’s quite clear from that quote that he’s on their radar but not yet ready 

They know him from the 21s and know what he can do. How have his chances reduced? If anything, that West Ham goal (under Manning) has raised his profile! 

Edited March 21 by Harry

[W-S-M Seagull]

9 minutes ago, SydneyCity said:

Scotland assistant coach, John Carver yesterday: 

“I think it is important you never stop looking and searching. That’s how it should be. If people think they are comfortable getting a place in the squad then they become relaxed. So we want to just make sure that there’s a competitive edge at that top end of the field… We will never stop looking. The young boy [Tommy] Conway at Bristol is another one, but he is doing really well with the Under-21s and they have got a big game coming up. He is one we have been looking at as well. It is good for the future. He is in there and I am guessing he has got around about a dozen goals at least. He scored a great goal against West Ham in the FA Cup. He is another youngster coming through.”

TC is not far off it, and a few more goal scoring opportunities, resulting in a few more goals could (not definitely) have clinched a call up - and Manningball has definitely reduced his chances.

It’s basic probability. More chances = more goals.

All he needs to do is score every single chance he gets, something that the best striker in the world can't do and he'll get a call up. Simple really. 

Tommy actually has a higher shot conversion rate than the best striker in the world. TC 18.4% Vs EH 16.67%

I believe TC is also slightly outperforming his xG. 

The problem here isn't Conway missing chances, the problem is Conway isn't getting enough chances and that is fully down to Manning. 

 

Edited March 21 by W-S-M Seagull

[SydneyCity]

Just now, Harry said:

How have his chances reduced when it’s quite clear from that quote that he’s on their radar but not yet ready 

His chances of scoring have been reduced because he’s playing in a system where he rarely gets the ball in a goal scoring area and, with a few more goals this season he may have been deemed ready and given a shot.

His chances of playing for Scotland have not increased under Manning.

I think we’re going to have to put this one down as agree to disagree

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, Harry said:

But that “high profile” goal was scored under Manning?? 
How many more goals do you think would have been required to get him 3 or 4 levels up the pecking order? 

You’re missing the point.

Manningball reduces the chances that Tommy gets.  Those goals versus West Ham, weren’t “Manningball” goals were they?  Goals scored by Tommy despite the Head-coach.

Manning said after his first game he was gonna work on how to get players “in-behind” to cross for Tommy.  Later on is his tenure he says Tommy will have to get used to different chances.  That’s because he couldn’t fathom out how to do it.

He might not have made it / probably wouldn’t have…but his chances reduced by being starved of the ball in the box, being coached to work on his defensive play, etc, etc.  

 

[Harry]

37 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

All he needs to do is score every single chance he gets, something that the best striker in the world can't do and he'll get a call up. Simple really. 

Tommy actually has a higher shot conversion rate than the best striker in the world. TC 18.4% Vs EH 16.67%

I believe TC is also slightly outperforming his xG. 

The problem here isn't Conway missing chances, the problem is Conway isn't getting enough chances and that is fully down to Manning. 

 

 

36 minutes ago, SydneyCity said:

His chances of scoring have been reduced because he’s playing in a system where he rarely gets the ball in a goal scoring area and, with a few more goals this season he may have been deemed ready and given a shot.

His chances of playing for Scotland have not increased under Manning.

I think we’re going to have to put this one down as agree to disagree

Still no answer to the very simple question :

Even, hypothetically, if Pearson had still been here and Tommy had scored another 5-10 goals, which player out of Adams, Dykes and Shankland would he replace? 

[spudski]

Just now, Harry said:

 

Still no answer to the very simple question :

Even, hypothetically, if Pearson had still been here and Tommy had scored another 5-10 goals, which player out of Adams, Dykes and Shankland would he replace? 

Anyone is better than Dykes...even that kid that stuck his finger in one in Holland he's ******* useless imo.

[Davefevs]

15 minutes ago, Harry said:

 

Still no answer to the very simple question :

Even, hypothetically, if Pearson had still been here and Tommy had scored another 5-10 goals, which player out of Adams, Dykes and Shankland would he replace? 

Dykes or Shankland could’ve missed out for TC….Shankland has only recently (Nov) got back into the squad.

[SydneyCity]

15 minutes ago, Harry said:

goals, which player out of Adams, Dykes and Shankland would he replace? 

Shankland has only just got into the squad so it could have been between him and TC, had TC been a bit more prolific this season. Given the 5-10 more goals example you gave, I’d say 12-17 goals in the Championship, certainly at the upper end of that, is up there with 27 in the SPL.

Dykes is having a pretty poor season overall, so he’s in on loyalty at the moment, so TC could have been in with a shout for his spot too.

Adam’s would not lose his spot.

[Harry]

18 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Dykes or Shankland could’ve missed out for TC….Shankland has only recently (Nov) got back into the squad.

So he’s ahead of Tommy then - who hasn’t made a squad at all yet. 

[Harry]

19 minutes ago, SydneyCity said:

Shankland has only just got into the squad so it could have been between him and TC, had TC been a bit more prolific this season. Given the 5-10 more goals example you gave, I’d say 12-17 goals in the Championship, certainly at the upper end of that, is up there with 27 in the SPL.

Dykes is having a pretty poor season overall, so he’s in on loyalty at the moment, so TC could have been in with a shout for his spot too.

Adam’s would not lose his spot.

Shankland is in top form in the SPL this season and is the current ‘pick’. Tommy would have had to be simply outstanding to oust him from the squad and if he did I’d guess there’d be uproar amongst the majority of the Scottish fans (who basically know Shankland but prob don’t really ‘know’ Conway).  
 

And Dykes, even if we think he’s crap, has started all but 2 of Scotlands games in the last 18 months and therefore been an integral part of the team that’s got them to where they are. 
I’d be amazed if Tommy gets in ahead of any of those, even if he’d scored 20 goals this season (which he never would have done under Nige either anyway!) 

[W-S-M Seagull]

16 minutes ago, Harry said:

Shankland is in top form in the SPL this season and is the current ‘pick’. Tommy would have had to be simply outstanding to oust him from the squad and if he did I’d guess there’d be uproar amongst the majority of the Scottish fans (who basically know Shankland but prob don’t really ‘know’ Conway).  
 

And Dykes, even if we think he’s crap, has started all but 2 of Scotlands games in the last 18 months and therefore been an integral part of the team that’s got them to where they are. 
I’d be amazed if Tommy gets in ahead of any of those, even if he’d scored 20 goals this season (which he never would have done under Nige either anyway!) 

This is getting pathetic now mate. 

Dress this up however you want but we can all see what you're trying to do is to deflect any blame from Manning. 

Stick to playing football manager mate. 

[Harry]

Just now, W-S-M Seagull said:

This is getting pathetic now mate. 

Dress this up however you want but we can all see what you're trying to do is to deflect any blame from Manning. 

Stick to playing football manager mate. 

Ha ha. I’ve made my feelings on Manning quite clear and I don’t want him here any more - with immediate effect. 
But he’s not to blame for everything that is wrong with this club and he’s not to blame for the fact there are more established strikers ahead of Conway in the Scotland squad. 
I’m sure if you could find a tenuous link that you’d blame Manning for the crisis in Gaza. 

[Davefevs]

41 minutes ago, Harry said:

So he’s ahead of Tommy then - who hasn’t made a squad at all yet. 

To repeat ….but had he shown what he could do over the past few months he may have had a chance of being selected.  You’re painting it as b&w.  It’s not.  They have two friendlies.  TC might've got a call-up to see whether a late run might make him an option for the summer. 

[W-S-M Seagull]

28 minutes ago, Harry said:

Ha ha. I’ve made my feelings on Manning quite clear and I don’t want him here any more - with immediate effect. 
But he’s not to blame for everything that is wrong with this club and he’s not to blame for the fact there are more established strikers ahead of Conway in the Scotland squad. 
I’m sure if you could find a tenuous link that you’d blame Manning for the crisis in Gaza. 

Nah you're just saying that to save face whilst still willing to die on the hill for your man. 

He is however to blame for Conway not scoring and not being provided with chances which is what this whole conversation is about. 

Tommy Conway won't be going to the Euros and that's down to your man Liam Manning. 

[Harry]

32 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Nah you're just saying that to save face whilst still willing to die on the hill for your man. 

He is however to blame for Conway not scoring and not being provided with chances which is what this whole conversation is about. 

Tommy Conway won't be going to the Euros and that's down to your man Liam Manning. 

He’s not “my man” and I no longer want him here. No hills. No dying. 
 

Perhaps Conway might make more of an effort to anticipate and get into better scoring positions. 
Exhibit A 
 

 

[Silvio Dante]

42 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Nah you're just saying that to save face whilst still willing to die on the hill for your man. 

He is however to blame for Conway not scoring and not being provided with chances which is what this whole conversation is about. 

Tommy Conway won't be going to the Euros and that's down to your man Liam Manning. 

This is exactly what I was on about on the other thread.

Ive pointed you before to a thread where prior to LMs appointment @Harry gave a decent rundown of Mannings strengths and weaknesses, and he expressed concerns over his fit here. Harry rated him as a coach though and has taken exactly the journey I described - he thought he could do the job despite those doubts, accentuated (IMO too much) positives and then eventually got to a point where he said LM had to go. But you’re lumping him in with posters like Zuni, Lez etc who forged disagreement and discourse. He’s stated he doesn’t want Manning on several occasions (so in your words “owned it”) but you’re not happy to accept that.

Do I think Conways chances of going to the Euros have lessened because of Manning? Absolutely. Do I think he’s made him look worse? Totally.

However.

Do I think that Steve Clarke has a squad built in large part on unity and loyalty? 100%. Did Tommy miss a large chunk of the early season? Yes

The balanced view is that Conway was very unlikely to make the Euros in any case because he’d have had to displace players who got Scotland there. However, had he had a 20 goal season he may have done so. Bearing in mind we’ve only had one of those (Weimann) in the last 7 years, the chances of him doing so (particularly as we lost Scott who could create for him) were very slim.

So, yeah, Manning hasn’t helped. But I think only an injury free season, getting to 20 goals (which would have been achieved in part by keeping Scott) would have got him there in any case.

[W-S-M Seagull]

14 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

This is exactly what I was on about on the other thread.

Ive pointed you before to a thread where prior to LMs appointment @Harry gave a decent rundown of Mannings strengths and weaknesses, and he expressed concerns over his fit here. Harry rated him as a coach though and has taken exactly the journey I described - he thought he could do the job despite those doubts, accentuated (IMO too much) positives and then eventually got to a point where he said LM had to go. But you’re lumping him in with posters like Zuni, Lez etc who forged disagreement and discourse. He’s stated he doesn’t want Manning on several occasions (so in your words “owned it”) but you’re not happy to accept that.

Do I think Conways chances of going to the Euros have lessened because of Manning? Absolutely. Do I think he’s made him look worse? Totally.

However.

Do I think that Steve Clarke has a squad built in large part on unity and loyalty? 100%. Did Tommy miss a large chunk of the early season? Yes

The balanced view is that Conway was very unlikely to make the Euros in any case because he’d have had to displace players who got Scotland there. However, had he had a 20 goal season he may have done so. Bearing in mind we’ve only had one of those (Weimann) in the last 7 years, the chances of him doing so (particularly as we lost Scott who could create for him) were very slim.

So, yeah, Manning hasn’t helped. But I think only an injury free season, getting to 20 goals (which would have been achieved in part by keeping Scott) would have got him there in any case.

Harry of course kept making digs that we were now "well coached" which is exactly what I am on about. 

[Harry]

Just now, W-S-M Seagull said:

Harry of course kept making digs that we were now "well coached" which is exactly what I am on about. 

When you say “kept making digs” you do of course mean “I said it once - after Watford away”. And I explained why.