Leicester City. Points deduction?

[Mr Popodopolous]

I'd say he and other journalists should explain the Rules better tbh. Albeit I'll temper that by saying they also have Professional Relationships to protect, Sources.

[Mr Popodopolous]

 

Says it included the Fofana and Maddison sales..I honestly thought that with Maddison in laat seasons Accounts it would be somewhat less..Still substantial but more like £55-60m.

So much for them having the moral high ground over Everton??

They have still lost less than Everton over the piece but they've clearly almost certainly breached PSR.

Edited April 2 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

It's insanely bad management. Sure some of it will have included the Rodgers payoff but Leicester and one point of mitigation is laughable. Risible. A damn cheek.

Mitigation owing to budgeting based on past Sporting Achievement?? Get ******. 

Edited April 2 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

12 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

It's insanely bad management. Sure some of it will have included the Rodgers payoff but Leicester and one point of mitigation is laughable. Risible. A damn cheek.

Mitigation owing to budgeting based on past Sporting Achievement?? Get ******. 

Hi mr p….you gotta link to the pdf please?

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Hi mr p….you gotta link to the pdf please?

Here Dave.

https://resources.lcfc.com/leicesterfc/document/2024/04/02/3ce38931-9e1f-4734-8202-e5ef7b9507b0/LCFC-FY23-accounts.pdf

[Benneythered]

This is why the Championship teams generally cant compete, if you cant support the wages of those players within the rules they should be sold like a liquidation by the league.

[Davefevs]

9 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Here Dave.

https://resources.lcfc.com/leicesterfc/document/2024/04/02/3ce38931-9e1f-4734-8202-e5ef7b9507b0/LCFC-FY23-accounts.pdf

Ta, wow!

The extension to 13 months probably pros and cons, probably getting some sales included helped a bit.

[Mr Popodopolous]

16 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Ta, wow!

The extension to 13 months probably pros and cons, probably getting some sales included helped a bit.

It is staggeringly bad isn't it Dave. They should've (IMO) been far from relegation on paper anyway but that's a separate issue.

13 months, probably Maddison over the line the big one, on the flipside a 13rh month of costs without much non Transfer Income to offset.

It's genuinely worse than I assumed though, or I assumed that if it was that level then Maddison woukd be in the 2023-24 Accounts but seemingly not.

[Mr Popodopolous]

I won't bother to try and estimate the FFP position beyond what I've done already but starting point. I am assuming £20m and £25m per year in Allowables in 2019-20 and 2020-21, £25m in 2021-22, £27m in 2022-23 rounded for 13 months and £25m a year thereafter.

2019-20 -£67.284m

2020-21 -£33.097m

Averaged-£50.1905m

Nearly an averaged Covid Loss of -£25.007m.

2021-22 -£92.496m

2022-23 -£89.719m

Starting point..a Pre Tax Loss for the period of -£282,596,000 in raw unanalysed pre tax Losses.

However.

-£232,405,500.

There was a Covid Loss published on their 2022 Accounts too of £1.3-1.4m which appears to have vanished.

£25mish overspend.

The period ending 2023-24..I dread to think. Remember too that Upper Loss limit is £83m not £105m.

[Mr Popodopolous]

[W-S-M Seagull]

8 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

You know my thoughts on this Mr P. 

If a club breaches during a promotion season then they should not be allowed to be promoted. It makes a complete mockery of this league. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

9 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

You know my thoughts on this Mr P. 

If a club breaches during a promotion season then they should not be allowed to be promoted. It makes a complete mockery of this league. 

Completely agreed WSM, Aston Villa in 2019 were ones that I think really got away but this seems like a potential outright breach and Breach 1, Breach 2.

The EFL can push for up to a 21 point deduction for the most egregious cases, not sure what an EFL Commission would recommend here.

Edited April 2 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Fixed Asset loophole shut in 2021.

[Mr Popodopolous]

This one also may not wholly get it... 

Not sure how the hiring it to Leicester would work..

Edited April 2 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Had the loophole never opened counterfactuals for...

Aston Villa

Birmingham

Blackburn

Derby

Reading

Sheffield Wednesday

Stoke

...Would all be rather interesting. All sold and leased back at least one Fixed Asset to assist with FFP compliance.

[The Gasbuster]

1 hour ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

You know my thoughts on this Mr P. 

If a club breaches during a promotion season then they should not be allowed to be promoted. It makes a complete mockery of this league. 

Would that have stopped SFC Bournemouth going up ?

If it had then they would have crashed and burned; and returned to L2, where they belong.

[Mr Popodopolous]

7 minutes ago, The Gasbuster said:

Would that have stopped SFC Bournemouth going up ?

If it had then they would have crashed and burned; and returned to L2, where they belong.

Under these rules? Maybe. Or it may have restricted their expenditure in this season which stops them going up de facto, see also Aston Villa in respect of the Restrictions at bare minimum that could have been imposed in Summer 2018.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Ha now I've heard it all, apparently the Rules are unfair to top half or established clubs who may have a bad year.

£44m in Headroom ie post adjustments PLUS a £40-45m in Parachute Payments and EFL cash vs Solidarity Payments and EFL cash gap??

Edited April 2 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

How about, sorry for imminently swearing.

Don't ******* sign:

Hermansen, Coady, Winks, Cannon

Loan Doyle, Fatawu, Agkun

Sensi for half a season.

When having possibly breached once.

Look to try harder to offload Idk Ward, Ndidi, Praet, Iheanacho.

Utilise if required Daniel Iversen a capable Championship keeper.

Edited April 2 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Pereira a Portugal International RB, I believe Faes is Belgian albeit erratic, Vestegaard Danish. 

The squad had characteristics of a PL squad in this League.

Take a bid for Dewsbury-Hall when many points clear.

Aggravating factors?

Edited April 2 by Mr Popodopolous

[downendcity]

16 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Ha now I've heard it all, apparently the Rules are unfair to top half or established clubs who may have a bad year.

£44m in Headroom ie post adjustments PLUS a £40-45m in Parachute Payments gap??

Surely that is why any properly run business has contingency plans - for when things go wrong.

Then again, I've said many times before the wealthy owners of football clubs would almost certainly never run the businesses from which they made their wealth the way they run their football clubs. Mind you, the businesses from which some wealthy club owners made their money might not bear too much scrutiny!

Do they not understand that football's financial rules are in place for exactly the situation that fan describes. It was Portsmouth's relegation from the premier league, having overstretched themselves financially, that almost saw the club go out of business completely when their owner was no longer prepared to foot the bills.

We saw it in the championship when Derby overstretched themselves attempting to gain promotion - and let's be honest, they really did breach ffp in so doing-  and having failed  to do so  their "lifelong fan who'd never leave them in the 5h!t" owner decided he was no longer going to support them, letting them go into administration and within a whisker of liquidation.

Fans of every club, and especially so those with very wealthy owners, thinks it could never happen to them - until it does!  

If Leicester don't get promotion, languish in the championship and then, as a result of much reduced income, let's say they go into administration, suffering yet more points deduction, you can bet those same fans will blame football's authorities for not protecting clubs from profligate owners!

Edited April 2 by downendcity

[Mr Popodopolous]

24 minutes ago, downendcity said:

Surely that is why any properly run business has contingency plans - for when things go wrong.

Then again, I've said many times before the wealthy owners of football clubs would almost certainly never run the businesses from which they made their wealth the way they run their football clubs. Mind you, the businesses from which some wealthy club owners made their money might not bear too much scrutiny!

Do they not understand that football's financial rules are in place for exactly the situation that fan describes. It was Portsmouth's relegation from the premier league, having overstretched themselves financially, that almost saw the club go out of business completely when their owner was no longer prepared to foot the bills.

We saw it in the championship when Derby overstretched themselves attempting to gain promotion - and let's be honest, they really did breach ffp in so doing-  and having failed  to do so  their "lifelong fan who'd never leave them in the 5h!t" owner decided he was no longer going to support them, letting them go into administration and within a whisker of liquidation.

Fans of every club, and especially so those with very wealthy owners, thinks it could never happen to them - until it does!  

If Leicester don't get promotion, languish in the championship and then, as a result of much reduced income, let's say they go into administration, suffering yet more points deduction, you can bet those same fans will blame football's authorities for not protecting clubs from profligate owners!

Exactly, very well put.

They should have would down the spending, mine looked to sell some more. I assume they had relegation clauses perhaps a total Group wage bill of £80-90m now although that feels towards the top end of the deduction.

TV money down £60m post Relegation, Transfer Profit down £30-35m thusfar.

Their losses from 2021-22 are mind-boggling, Everton even worse. Yet many a complaint about P&S- the clue being in the name, Profit and Sustainability. £105m is a very generous 3 year limit really but some fans and owners seem to see it as a target and a target to evade.

Actually their 2nd year losses are save for the 13th month in line with some of my expectations. I thought major but not quite so major.

Mel Morris, did they ever get to the bottom of that fully. He suddenly stopped..he could have stayed on and accepted the FFP breach but I guess he didn't want to be liable for the debt unless there was more to it.

He seemed to write off Derby debt due to him and paid off Gibson/Middlesbrough.

Portsmouth had a string of owners didn't they, some far from financially capable.

FFP aside, as a Leicester fan that poster should know about all of the issues given that they went into Administration in 2002. Emerged fairly unscathed as they gained promotion and the rules were very different then.

Edited April 2 by Mr Popodopolous

[fgrsimon]

5 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

It's insanely bad management. Sure some of it will have included the Rodgers payoff but Leicester and one point of mitigation is laughable. Risible. A damn cheek.

Mitigation owing to budgeting based on past Sporting Achievement?? Get ******. 

Surely that's them basically admitting they screwed up in plain text on official HMRC documentation. Not very clever, would have been better saying nothing because HMRC themselves don't care how much they've spent as long as they pay the correct tax and vat.

[Mr Popodopolous]

10 minutes ago, fgrsimon said:

Surely that's them basically admitting they screwed up in plain text on official HMRC documentation. Not very clever, would have been better saying nothing because HMRC themselves don't care how much they've spent as long as they pay the correct tax and vat.

I would say so yes albeit they are clearly laying out a proposed defence to maybe try and mitigate, reduce by saying it was due to an unexpected collapse last year.

It should carry no weight or cut no ice. It feels like a non-sequitur- an irrelevant consideration.

Edited April 2 by Mr Popodopolous

[ExiledAjax]

12 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Mitigation owing to budgeting based on past Sporting Achievement?? Get ******. 

Ie. "We assumed we'd get into Europe in some form or other".

It's the underlying issue of income being so tied to sporting achievement in the previous season. If the football industry distributed at least some of its riches equitably or based on things other than league position, you'd not have clubs making this kind of risky assumption.

[exAtyeoMax]

The football league is ******. Can we just reset it alphabetically?

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, ExiledAjax said:

Ie. "We assumed we'd get into Europe in some form or other".

It's the underlying issue of income being so tied to sporting achievement in the previous season. If the football industry distributed at least some of its riches equitably or based on things other than league position, you'd not have clubs making this kind of risky assumption.

That is valid point and ironically the PL wish to introduce merit payments in the Championship as part of the Proposed New Deal or did.

Still I don't see why or how that should serve to mitigate if FFP has been failed.

[ExiledAjax]

22 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

That is valid point and ironically the PL wish to introduce merit payments in the Championship as part of the Proposed New Deal or did.

Still I don't see why or how that should serve to mitigate if FFP has been failed.

Oh no "we budgeted assuming we'd finish in the top 8, but failed to do so" shouldn't mitigate failure of FFP.

Every team should be budgeting for every eventuality really, even the mega-rich teams at the top should have an a) get into the champs league, and b) don't budget.

[Davefevs]

9 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Ha now I've heard it all, apparently the Rules are unfair to top half or established clubs who may have a bad year.

£44m in Headroom ie post adjustments PLUS a £40-45m in Parachute Payments and EFL cash vs Solidarity Payments and EFL cash gap??

Great forum name though

[LondonBristolian]

41 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Oh no "we budgeted assuming we'd finish in the top 8, but failed to do so" shouldn't mitigate failure of FFP.

Every team should be budgeting for every eventuality really, even the mega-rich teams at the top should have an a) get into the champs league, and b) don't budget.

I think for me there's two major frustrations I've got with Leicester, Everton, Forest etc.

1) Clubs defending themselves not on "we didn't break the rules" but "the rules we knew about - and, in most cases, had a vote on - weren't fair in the first place". Premier League clubs vote on the rules for PL finances together and every club had an opportunity to agree or disagree with them. And - whether they agreed or not - every club knew what the rules were. "We didn't know we'd have a bad season" or "we sold that player a bit later as we thought we'd get more of a profit" is basically "we knew what the rules are but decided to chance it"

Even if one agrees with the point above regarding West Ham, the point to raise and challenge that is when the rules are being agreed, not after the point you've been caught breaking them.

2) Contingency planning for the possibility of a bad year is what literally every business needs to do. No company in the UK could go to an insolvency proceeding and say "well, we just sort of assumed we wouldn't have a bad year so didn't plan for it". I totally get how Leicester were caught out by the financial impact of being relegated after a number of top eight finishes but that's not an excuse.