Patience vs itchy trigger fingers

[Superjack]

On 02/04/2024 at 09:53, Numero Uno said:

The problem is that the people who accuse posters of being "Nige Fanboys" are "anti-Nige" themselves and so this debate will never be allowed to settle into a simple "what is Liam doing to hit target" discussion. If Liam shows the same tactical nous and ability to affect a game moving forwards that has been on display for the last two matches MANY DOUBTERS will get off his case. Some won't in the same way that some minimise the situation Nige inherited simply because they don't like/rate him or in a number of cases because he brought in Danny Simpson..........that's the crux of it with more detractors than you might realise.

Anyway, moving on, let's see if Liam can replicate on Saturday against another mob who are ripe for the taking after yesterday. Small steps but ones he needs to be taking.

Bravo, sir.

[BrizzleRed]

5 hours ago, KingHillRed said:

And what is wrong with that statement exactly?  I know what I would do if it was my money too - I'd do as I see fit

I’ll tell you what’s wrong with that statement.

This is OUR club and collectively, the fanbase have invested way more into this club than he has during their lifetimes.

The big problem is, he’s made sure that he’s the only one with the power to make the important decisions, which usually involve pissing away £millions and he doesn’t take any responsibility for his huge mistakes along the way.

Being run by a control freak certainly isn’t doing us any favours and we’re still no closer to on-field success after two decades of his ownership.

[BrizzleRed]

On 02/04/2024 at 07:58, Numero Uno said:

The first two thirds of Pearson's time in charge was either rebuilding a bomb scare of a squad or working to a strict FFFP budget. That is fact isn't it? "Some" is certainly a significant minimisation of the situation to make a point and with a lesser manager we would almost certainly have been in League 1 and not challenging to get back out until next season imo. If you can't acknowledge that then I think you have colours nailed firmly to the mast. I do agree that the football was uninspiring but for me nothing he produced was as bad as those Cardiff and Swansea games recently, that dials straight back to "end of Dean Holden levels". However that should be behind us now (it had better be tbh).

The reason some people are less patient is that Liam did not have to "fix" anything and the purse strings are being slowly relaxed for him to "add and improve". He's been dealt a decent hand coming into a new club in effect compared to most managers who are often inheriting a car crash. Ultimately Liam will get his chance next season whatever even his biggest detractor thinks and we'll all judge him on that now with many people considering that he has been brought in by the club to give us "a greater chance of success". That means "matching the last manager" and being on 18 points after 14 games next season will not cut it. He has to exceed the performance of the previous manager and show real signs of improvement next season otherwise he's not hitting target and some fans will have their own opinion on that whether you agree with it or not.

Funny isn’t it.  For all the accusations of some supporters being ‘Nige fanboys’, it’s ironic that those making those accusations are a very vociferous group who are in a distinctly ‘anti Nige’ cult, who refuse to admit to it.  

They have refused to give him any credit or understanding of the size of the task he had to deal with and the restrictions he was working under.  They have been crying out for his sacking at every possible opportunity, then pathetically claiming it’s the whole fanbase who wanted him out, not just their cult group.

In spite of their selective myopia, we are now supposed to cut LM a load of slack and ignore some really shite performances with a solid squad, unlike their treatment of Nigel Pearson with a makeshift squad of crocks and Academy rookies.

******* priceless!!!

[Numero Uno]

12 hours ago, BrizzleRed said:

Funny isn’t it.  For all the accusations of some supporters being ‘Nige fanboys’, it’s ironic that those making those accusations are a very vociferous group who are in a distinctly ‘anti Nige’ cult, who refuse to admit to it.  

They have refused to give him any credit or understanding of the size of the task he had to deal with and the restrictions he was working under.  They have been crying out for his sacking at every possible opportunity, then pathetically claiming it’s the whole fanbase who wanted him out, not just their cult group.

In spite of their selective myopia, we are now supposed to cut LM a load of slack and ignore some really shite performances with a solid squad, unlike their treatment of Nigel Pearson with a makeshift squad of crocks and Academy rookies.

******* priceless!!!

The highlighted bit is why I am so anti-hierarchy and would still want Tinnion's arse kicked out of it if we won the Championship with 108 points and reached the FA Cup Final next season. It was the hierarchy who allowed the bollocks being spouted by the "Anti-Nige" mob to gain traction because they put their careers above the truth and barely gave him any credit when relieving him of his duties, in fact it was the opposite with the Snake and Crayon Boy actively looking to shout every negative from the rooftops in order to defend their position (one they had to defend once they quickly realised they had royally ****** up with the majority of fans).

A sensible statement along the lines of that released by Plymouth Argyle the other day would have been better but instead they went on the attack. They have peddled this narrative that Nige had all the time anyone could want to build a squad........and a small number of idiots have gone along with it because Liam hasn't given them enough so far to say "see, told you I was right".

Edited April 4 by Numero Uno

[pillred]

On 01/04/2024 at 19:17, oldstandrobin said:

In one

You can't beat a bita bully :laugh:.

[BrizzleRed]

2 hours ago, Numero Uno said:

The highlighted bit is why I am so anti-hierarchy and would still want Tinnion's arse kicked out of it if we won the Championship with 108 points and reached the FA Cup Final next season. It was the hierarchy who allowed the bollocks being spouted by the "Anti-Nige" mob to gain traction because they put their careers above the truth and barely gave him any credit when relieving him of his duties, in fact it was the opposite with the Snake and Crayon Boy actively looking to shout every negative from the rooftops in order to defend their position (one they had to defend once they quickly realised they had royally ****** up with the majority of fans).

A sensible statement along the lines of that released by Plymouth Argyle the other day would have been better but instead they went on the attack. They have peddled this narrative that Nige had all the time anyone could want to build a squad........and a small number of idiots have gone along with it because Liam hasn't given them enough so far to say "see, told you I was right".

Spot on NU

Regarding the anti Nige mob, I always try my best to view them just as people who have a different viewpoint to me and have completely bought into the bullshit put out by the club hierarchy.  The problem for me is, they so closely mirror the official club line, I can't help questioning if some of them are actually club employees.  It's sad when you get to the point of being suspicious of what may actually be genuine fellow fans, but that's just how bad things have become.  As you say, the fanbase has been divided and polarised and that is clearly down to the shit put out by the club.

The biggest issue for me is my complete breakdown of trust in the club and specifically Stephen Lansdown.  Whilst the club could regain that trust with the right appointments, for me, that can only ever be achieved with Lansdown gone.  We've all witnessed the constant churns of various plans, managers, head coaches and players at this club over the years, with the same outcome ....... mediocrity.  As we all know, the only constant is Lansdown himself.  I've long accepted he couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery, let alone a football club, and his ego and stubbornness will always hold us back.  The cynical, vindictive and downright disrespectful way Nige was treated really was the final straw with me though and finally confirmed this club is in far from safe hands.  At that point, Lansdown went from being just a massively underachieving and misguided, egotistical owner, to being a creeping, controlling disease that is gradually killing this club.   

As has been said many times, we've witnessed City in infinitely worse positions on the field over the years, but in my 60 years of following the club, I've never felt remotely close to the total lack of trust and despair in the hierarchy and I'm ashamed to say, my feelings towards Lansdown are now bordering on hatred for being responsible for that.

[eardun]

On 03/04/2024 at 09:52, Davefevs said:

But….i do wonder when he’s gonna stop talking about “the game-plan” as the default reason for gaining results / performances.

I would rather “game-plan” becomes “identity”, because as it stands, “game-plan” implies its specific for that game, and something a bit different than the norm.

I do think he is talking about the specific game-plan for the match in question though. 

[Davefevs]

5 minutes ago, eardun said:

I do think he is talking about the specific game-plan for the match in question though. 

I know that.  That’s exactly my point.  When can we see results / performances from coaching an identity, rather than it (all) being about a game by game tactical plan?

[eardun]

9 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I know that.  That’s exactly my point.  When can we see results / performances from coaching an identity, rather than it (all) being about a game by game tactical plan?

Ah I misread - thought you were criticising his use of the term/his language, rather than how we perform. 

[Numero Uno]

40 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I know that.  That’s exactly my point.  When can we see results / performances from coaching an identity, rather than it (all) being about a game by game tactical plan?

It wouldn’t be so bad if we had two identities that work to match the limitations of the squad. Using a successful weekend one for teams like Leicester and one for the likes of Plymouth. If he can make that work longer term many would accept that.

[mozo]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

I know that.  That’s exactly my point.  When can we see results / performances from coaching an identity, rather than it (all) being about a game by game tactical plan?

I think a perfectly reasonable answer to that is you'd expect to see it for the majority of next season. Manning gets a full pre-season, a more bespoke squad and experience at the helm to draw on. I personally didn't expect anything sooner than that, but I appreciate other have different timescales in their own minds. To that extent, it's subjective.

Manning knows what his philosophy is and he's spelled out a few times. The good news is that what he describes would keep most fans happy. He needs to implement it successfully though. 

Regards the anti-Nige, anti-Manning stuff, this is OTIB and it won't change. With both managers there have been swathes of negative posters looking to criticise at every opportunity. Then, if you're critical in a rational way, you get thrown in with the extremists. Whenever I criticised Nige on here, who I generally supported, I'd get a really emotional response. It's a forum, therefore it is stupid.

[Davefevs]

44 minutes ago, mozo said:

I think a perfectly reasonable answer to that is you'd expect to see it for the majority of next season. Manning gets a full pre-season, a more bespoke squad and experience at the helm to draw on. I personally didn't expect anything sooner than that, but I appreciate other have different timescales in their own minds. To that extent, it's subjective.

Manning knows what his philosophy is and he's spelled out a few times. The good news is that what he describes would keep most fans happy. He needs to implement it successfully though. 

Regards the anti-Nige, anti-Manning stuff, this is OTIB and it won't change. With both managers there have been swathes of negative posters looking to criticise at every opportunity. Then, if you're critical in a rational way, you get thrown in with the extremists. Whenever I criticised Nige on here, who I generally supported, I'd get a really emotional response. It's a forum, therefore it is stupid.

Ignoring the bollox spouted about league position expectations, playing style expectations are a different matter though.  The problem for me is the chalk and cheese approach / intent of the last two versus the longer period prior to Easter.  Where does that come from?

1. this is how he really wants to play - so why did it take so long to bring it to the fore?
2. he’s realised his approach needs a tweak, a bit of pragmatism - good stuff!

I also didn’t expect immediate upside, I won’t bother copying my first Manning expectations, you know what they say.  But even if his previous “sterile” (my word) style was his preferred way, it was making us worse, not better…hence all of my frustrated posts and tweets.  After 5 months you might normally see some dip, some inconsistency, as you embed your behaviours and principles, but you’d expect to see some signs of coming out the other side, even if like yourself, you think he needs preseason to tune-it.

He has spelled it out.  But what we witnessed on the pitch was certainly at loggerheads with Manning-ball TM “front foot, high press, forward thinking, attacking football, control games through possession, etc”, wasn’t it?  It was almost the polar opposite.  Even enjoyable (degrees of bloody enjoyable to quite enjoyable) performances and results weren’t achieved by Manning-ball (FA Cup, Southampton, etc) per se. Leicester (h) didn’t match Manning-ball either.  So, I’m not fussed about being excited about what he says, I’m fussed about what he does (what the team does).

So, are we witnessing an evolution of Manning-ball to Manning-ball 2.0?  I dunno.  I hope so.

We will learn more over the coming games.

We may even learn more from today’s press conference…I am about to get my wish!

+++++

Final para, yes OTIB is OTIB.  Frustrating innit!

Edited April 4 by Davefevs

[mozo]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Ignoring the bollox spouted about league position expectations, playing style expectations are a different matter though.  The problem for me is the chalk and cheese approach / intent of the last two versus the longer period prior to Easter.  Where does that come from?

1. this is how he really wants to play - so why did it take so long to bring it to the fore?
2. he’s realised his approach needs a tweak, a bit of pragmatism - good stuff!

I also didn’t expect immediate upside, I won’t bother copying my first Manning expectations, you know what they say.  But even if his previous “sterile” (my word) style was his preferred way, it was making us worse, not better…hence all of my frustrated posts and tweets.  After 5 months you might normally see some dip, some inconsistency, as you embed your behaviours and principles, but you’d expect to see some signs of coming out the other side, even if like yourself, you think he needs preseason to tune-it.

He has spelled it out.  But what we witnessed on the pitch was certainly at loggerheads with Manning-ball TM “front foot, high press, forward thinking, attacking football, control games through possession, etc”, wasn’t it?  It was almost the polar opposite.  Even enjoyable (degrees of bloody enjoyable to quite enjoyable) performances and results weren’t achieved by Manning-ball (FA Cup, Southampton, etc) per se. Leicester (h) didn’t match Manning-ball either.  So, I’m not fussed about being excited about what he says, I’m fussed about what he does (what the team does).

So, are we witnessing an evolution of Manning-ball to Manning-ball 2.0?  I dunno.  I hope so.

We will learn more over the coming games.

We may even learn more from today’s press conference…I am about to get my wish!

+++++

Final para, yes OTIB is OTIB.  Frustrating innit!

The way I see it (just my own subjective imaginings), is that we haven't seen Manningball yet. We've seen bits and pieces of it; some of the games we controlled possession very nicely whilst also moving the ball forwards, transitioning from the defensive shape to the offensive shape, forward passing, a selective press, etc etc in spells but not for a full 90, week in week out. I think the Leicester game was closer to it, maybe not so much Plymouth. But I don't think the players have mastered it yet, which is essentially Manning's responsibility. Time will tell if he gets it right.

We've obvs all got the right to make committed judgements when we see fit. Mine is much more like a dozen games into next season. For some people it was about two weeks after Manning was appointed! Your assessment is obviously based on solid analysis and reflection and I respect that.

...

Yeah, every time I get annoyed by it I have to remind myself "it's just OTIB, it's not real!"  I do enjoy the debate though.

 

[AppyDAZE]

Patience vs itchy trigger fingers

I always found to be better live than on their studio stuff.

Whatever, a great early 80s post punk outfit

:laugh: 

 

[Superjack]

11 hours ago, BrizzleRed said:

Spot on NU

Regarding the anti Nige mob, I always try my best to view them just as people who have a different viewpoint to me and have completely bought into the bullshit put out by the club hierarchy.  The problem for me is, they so closely mirror the official club line, I can't help questioning if some of them are actually club employees.  It's sad when you get to the point of being suspicious of what may actually be genuine fellow fans, but that's just how bad things have become.  As you say, the fanbase has been divided and polarised and that is clearly down to the shit put out by the club.

The biggest issue for me is my complete breakdown of trust in the club and specifically Stephen Lansdown.  Whilst the club could regain that trust with the right appointments, for me, that can only ever be achieved with Lansdown gone.  We've all witnessed the constant churns of various plans, managers, head coaches and players at this club over the years, with the same outcome ....... mediocrity.  As we all know, the only constant is Lansdown himself.  I've long accepted he couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery, let alone a football club, and his ego and stubbornness will always hold us back.  The cynical, vindictive and downright disrespectful way Nige was treated really was the final straw with me though and finally confirmed this club is in far from safe hands.  At that point, Lansdown went from being just a massively underachieving and misguided, egotistical owner, to being a creeping, controlling disease that is gradually killing this club.   

As has been said many times, we've witnessed City in infinitely worse positions on the field over the years, but in my 60 years of following the club, I've never felt remotely close to the total lack of trust and despair in the hierarchy and I'm ashamed to say, my feelings towards Lansdown are now bordering on hatred for being responsible for that.

[Mike Hunt-Hertz]

On 03/04/2024 at 14:01, KingHillRed said:

And what is wrong with that statement exactly?  I know what I would do if it was my money too - I'd do as I see fit

If I'd spunked as much money as he has, I wouldn't want Private Pike (sorry, JL!) looking after my assets.