James and Williams

[Ivorguy]

According to Manning, he meets with BT daily,and shortly they will make a decision on James and Williams.

This tells us why we need a manager so as the final decision rests with Manning.

The worrying comment is about wages.  If we let these two leave because they are too expensive it doesn’t fill me with confidence that those we bring in will be of an acceptable Championship standard.

If the club argue they will bring in players who will improve the team, then we still need those two in the squad.  Moreover our January permanent signings do not feel like improvements.

 

[milo1111]

This is a big worry. If they were staying it’s highly likely they’d already of signed new deals .

losing both means our recruitment needs to be spot on. Worrying as this league is brutal if you are lightweight in midfield.

[EmissionImpossible]

Hopefully we get shot of Williams, he’s been better this season but doesn’t offer enough passing wise.

[Simon bristol]

It seems bird is much more of a james type player, so it would seem possible that he will be moved on…. It would seem likely that james is one of the higher earners too, and is obviously in his 30s now, its a big spot in the squad to fill, and bird has to be up to it, which they presumably think he is.

ive never been a great fan of williams, not great technically, little goal threat, and is in there to provide the aggression. He obviously had a good month or 2 but is back on the bench now. Injuries have blighted him, and is probably a top earner too, i wouldnt be upset if he was moved on.

presumably king is as good as gone.

[And Its Smith]

I would assume James wants two years. The art of aging players is knowing when to walk away from them. I think James warrants one more year but I’d be nervous about the second year if he’s on £15k or more.  I was worried about the Wells renewal for the same reason and I think it will prove to be one year too many for him. 

[LondonBristolian]

In fairness, wages are relative to value to the team and the amount a club'd pay a player very much relates to how big a part they'll play. So the affordability question might not mean this player wants significantly more than we can pay so much as this player would command the salary we'd pay a key player but we think they only be squad players next season.

I'd imagine a player like James is one of our top earners and I think he absolutely should be. He's a quality player with premier league experience. Similarly Williams was signed to play a key role under Holden and I'd have thought he'd be on the upper end of our learners.

The big question then is "are these players going to want to be paid more than their role in the team?" I feel, for Williams, the answer might be yes. With James, it comes down to where Manning thinks he fits with Bird, Knight and TGH etc. At the moment, I'd certainly say he's showing enough to warrant being paid as a player but, as @And Its Smithsys, the level can suddenly drop with senior players and it is a factor. I'm not so sure it will with James as his style of play isn't reliant on physical prowess but it still has to be considered. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

The Wells renewal was in a context where we were scrambling to reduce costs, smoothing 6 months or so.into 30, definitely for Amortisation and probably to some degree for wages.

I'm not so sure that James is one of the bigger earners as he signed during a period whereby we were entering a degree of Austerity and he had the chance to work with NP and King again, a pull factor if you like.

Definitely would be looking to keep both of them.

Edited April 4 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

59 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

In fairness, wages are relative to value to the team and the amount a club'd pay a player very much relates to how big a part they'll play. So the affordability question might not mean this player wants significantly more than we can pay so much as this player would command the salary we'd pay a key player but we think they only be squad players next season.

I'd imagine a player like James is one of our top earners and I think he absolutely should be. He's a quality player with premier league experience. Similarly Williams was signed to play a key role under Holden and I'd have thought he'd be on the upper end of our learners.

The big question then is "are these players going to want to be paid more than their role in the team?" I feel, for Williams, the answer might be yes. With James, it comes down to where Manning thinks he fits with Bird, Knight and TGH etc. At the moment, I'd certainly say he's showing enough to warrant being paid as a player but, as @And Its Smithsys, the level can suddenly drop with senior players and it is a factor. I'm not so sure it will with James as his style of play isn't reliant on physical prowess but it still has to be considered. 

I wrote this to someone else this morning when I read JP’s article….because I couldn’t answer in a single tweet.

It is the impossible question though - from outside looking in.

Whether hes playing back-3 or back-4 the two constants (3 if you include GK) are one striker and 2 DMs.

To my mind you need 5 DMs.

Knowns:

- Knight - you get the bonus of player who you can keep minutes topped up in other positions
- Bird - new signing
- TGH - again, like Knight, can play elsewhere - needs to improve fitness too

Unknowns:

- James and Williams

- Other targets

I do worry about bloat, but I think you could retain both:

Williams - in his prime years, effectively all his transfer fee / amortisation is sunk…he’s like a no / low risk free transfer

James - still a good player, why wouldn’t you use him on a yearly-review, use him to bed in Bird, develop all of your others, e.g. TGH and Murphy.

Other targets - gonna have to be good to replace the two above.  You’d think we’ve picked up the lg1 nugget already in Bird, so who else shapes up…and and what cost?

I’d probably err on keeping both, and concentrating on the 9 and 10.

+++++

Playing Football Manager, you try to convince James to sign an incentivised 1+1 deal.

Williams you’re probably fighting the likes of Preston and Stoke type clubs. Preston you can beat on £s, Stoke I dunno.  So it’s possible it’s out of our hands.  Lowe and Schumacher’s scouse connections might play a part?

[W-S-M Seagull]

If we lose James, King and Williams then I really fear a relegation battle. 

What you lose is experience in the team, in the dressing room and on the training ground. 

These things are intangible so Liam won't get them. 

Yes you can recruit better players who on paper have better stats but without that experience in the team then there will be issues. 

You need those experienced players to drive the daily standards. 

 

 

[mozo]

23 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I wrote this to someone else this morning when I read JP’s article….because I couldn’t answer in a single tweet.

It is the impossible question though - from outside looking in.

Whether hes playing back-3 or back-4 the two constants (3 if you include GK) are one striker and 2 DMs.

To my mind you need 5 DMs.

Knowns:

- Knight - you get the bonus of player who you can keep minutes topped up in other positions
- Bird - new signing
- TGH - again, like Knight, can play elsewhere - needs to improve fitness too

Unknowns:

- James and Williams

- Other targets

I do worry about bloat, but I think you could retain both:

Williams - in his prime years, effectively all his transfer fee / amortisation is sunk…he’s like a no / low risk free transfer

James - still a good player, why wouldn’t you use him on a yearly-review, use him to bed in Bird, develop all of your others, e.g. TGH and Murphy.

Other targets - gonna have to be good to replace the two above.  You’d think we’ve picked up the lg1 nugget already in Bird, so who else shapes up…and and what cost?

I’d probably err on keeping both, and concentrating on the 9 and 10.

+++++

Playing Football Manager, you try to convince James to sign an incentivised 1+1 deal.

Williams you’re probably fighting the likes of Preston and Stoke type clubs. Preston you can beat on £s, Stoke I dunno.  So it’s possible it’s out of our hands.  Lowe and Schumacher’s scouse connections might play a part?

I really hope James is the one we retain. We have to bear in mind that his agent will be fishing for a minimum of two years to protect his client.

[BLRed]

Only James out of the two should stay but wages will mean he moves on also to further reduce the wage bill and be replaced by a new defensive midfielder to add to stokes and bird

[James54De]

Will Murphy be part of it next season? - that will have an influence on how many more we need in there.
 

I expected to have seen a little bit of him by now, in the U21’s if not the first team. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

17 minutes ago, BLRed said:

Only James out of the two should stay but wages will mean he moves on also to further reduce the wage bill and be replaced by a new defensive midfielder to add to stokes and bird

Stokes is more attack minded I thought? One quick search says he is a winger.

That aside it's a big leap from 5th Tier Aldershot to a very competitive Championship.

[Davefevs]

7 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Stokes is more attack minded I thought? One quick search says he is a winger.

That aside it's a big leap from 5th Tier Aldershot to a very competitive Championship.

He’s a no10

[Mr Popodopolous]

9 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

He’s a no10

Thanks. Still the idea of Stokes and Bird step up, James and Williams (Plus King of course), seems flawed to me if that is a path we go down.

Edited April 4 by Mr Popodopolous

[phantom]

3 hours ago, milo1111 said:

This is a big worry. If they were staying it’s highly likely they’d already of signed new deals .

They've not been offered anything to sign 

[spudski]

It's the experience and knowledge James and King bring that worries me the most about losing. 

Saying we have the likes of Vyner as a senior at this level to give ' experience ' is a massive mistake imo

[Davefevs]

Bird is your favourite player, don’t go doubting him now!

Seriously though, he’s played 101 times at this level.  His first full season (19-20) he was playing week-in, week-out in a team that was knocking on the door of the playoffs.  He can play at this level, that’s for sure.  Will he fit is the only doubt anyone should really have.

Stokes isn’t joining to step up from day one.  That’s why we are signing a main no10 (Twine or whoever).

[bearded_red]

Really hope James is still with us next season.

[Mr Popodopolous]

It's not so much Bird that worries me! I think he is a good mix of experience and yet u25, and with some good Championship experience.

What WSM said about the intangible factor..Bird, Knight, TGH, James, Williams and the versatility between defence and midfield for Naismith would do it for me as it stands. Subject to shape and fitness of course..

[Davefevs]

17 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

It's not so much Bird that worries me! I think he is a good mix of experience and yet u25, and with some good Championship experience.

What WSM said about the intangible factor..Bird, Knight, TGH, James, Williams and the versatility between defence and midfield for Naismith would do it for me as it stands. Subject to shape and fitness of course..

That might be exactly what we go into next season with

[Natchfever]

1 hour ago, BLRed said:

Only James out of the two should stay but wages will mean he moves on also to further reduce the wage bill and be replaced by a new defensive midfielder to add to stokes and bird

I wonder if its wages or the term sought?

If the club wants him they will make it worth his while.

Whether he wants to stay is of course pertinent too.

[redkev]

59 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

He’s a no10

Seems to be a number 12 in recent weeks

[redkev]

39 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

It's not so much Bird that worries me! I think he is a good mix of experience and yet u25, and with some good Championship experience.

What WSM said about the intangible factor..Bird, Knight, TGH, James, Williams and the versatility between defence and midfield for Naismith would do it for me as it stands. Subject to shape and fitness of course..

Who’s Naismith didn’t we get rid of him about 3 months ago 

[Mr Popodopolous]

4 minutes ago, redkev said:

Who’s Naismith didn’t we get rid of him about 3 months ago 

Fit Naismith, good player. Ability to switch between midfield and a back 3 also positive.

[mozo]

52 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Bird is your favourite player, don’t go doubting him now!

Seriously though, he’s played 101 times at this level.  His first full season (19-20) he was playing week-in, week-out in a team that was knocking on the door of the playoffs.  He can play at this level, that’s for sure.  Will he fit is the only doubt anyone should really have.

Stokes isn’t joining to step up from day one.  That’s why we are signing a main no10 (Twine or whoever).

So a guaranteed mystery injury to keep Bird out of the first half of the season...

[redkev]

8 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Fit Naismith, good player. Ability to switch between midfield and a back 3 also positive.

Totally agree was said tongue in cheek , I have always said we’re a better side when he’s in it 

[bcfcnick]

I would rather we hadn't signed Taylor Gardner-Hickman and kept the budget for contract extensions for both James and Williams.   Nakhi Wells took quite a pay cut and any new offer for Matty James would almost certainly be lower than his current wage.   Likewise for Williams but he is at the prime of his career so might get better free agent offers.  I don't think it's any coincidence that the losing streak ended when James came back from injury.   We'll need an experienced head next year.  Hopefully, King will be retained and used in a first-team coaching role as the the likes of Conway and Scott have given him massive praise for his influence.

[GrahamC]

First thing to say is none of us know what these two are actually on.

Williams was Holden’s big (pre pandemic) signing & James was definitely Pearson’s statement of intent one.

Next we didn’t lose £22m last year by paying everyone £7k a week..

That having been said, if James does really want to stay (I know he’s said so, but lots of stories his family live elsewhere) & we can offer a sum he’s happy with, I’d keep him on a two year deal.

I’d only retain Williams however if we don’t keep James.

In his case maybe he gets a better offer from elsewhere anyway & if that’s what happens then so be it.

Edited April 4 by GrahamC

[ZiderMeUp]

Heard a whisper James wants a two year deal we are only willing to offer one.  Think that’s the sticking point.