Sunderland away match thread

[Numero Uno]

14 minutes ago, Fontaineofallknowledge said:

Not sure a couple of dead rubber games are going to have any bearing on that decision for me. 
 

im expecting a transformed style next season after Liam shapes his squad and has a pre season to implement his methods. This season largely irrelevant for me 

It is for you, I and anyone else who will ultimately renew anyway but some have made it clear they don't have "trust" in this manager yet (I don't to be honest because his output has been so varied between the sublime on a few occasions and the ridiculous on significantly more than a few) and are holding on. I do think it's important that we win at least one of the next two home games and make sure we beat Rotherham. Getting done by that mob in our last home game of the season will certainly upset a few!!

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Fontaineofallknowledge said:

So you'd still sack manning?

Short answer…yes.

Longer answer, because…two decent performances (and two good results, one of which was excellent) has been followed by a shitty performance and a lucky result imho.  So 3 games of a mix, don’t influence heavily enough the view I established over 27 previous games.

When James Piercy asked Hoggy on Thursday whether they’d used the two week break to change a couple of things, spoon feeding him “higher press” and “higher intensity” of the Leicester and Plymouth matches in the way he framed the question, I sat there with baited breath for the answer.  I expected a “yeah, we’ve picked up on a couple things, and tweaked it”.  Had I heard that I’d have started to think that maybe that stubborn streak of LM isn’t a rigid as I thought, and I could then start to look out for these “new signs”.

Instead, he said pretty categorically (paraphrased) “no, that was just down to the way our opponents play, gave us different spaces.”

So, I’m back to the cart (our opponent) driving the horse (LM’s game plan), not our head-coach being dynamic by instilling his identity rather than playing a weekly game of how do I tweak for this opponent, how do I tweak for that one.

Of course he may have been economical with the truth, a bit of pride trying to be retained, so today was a biggy for me.

So, I came away from that hugely despondent and no change in my stance.  And therefore today was hardly gonna change it was it?

So, if I were in charge I’d still sack him.  I’m not, so it’s just a case of “this is what I’d do”.  I don’t expect that many on here have reached a black and white position, like I have.  Most will want to see how he does over time.  I don’t.

+++

I did enjoy hearing from Hogg though, I thought he talked well, but the answer to JP’s question was like a dagger!!!

1 hour ago, TonyTonyTony said:

I dont know what any other manager would say differently, to be honest. They all put a positive spin on their own team’s performances. 

I cant think of any manager that would have said “we should have got done by 4 or 5 today”. 

The conditions were shit - no doubt about that - ive been to the SOL and its a bowl. The pitch is below land level and as a result its a wind trap. Its hardly surprising they are used to playing in windy conditions and us less so. A shit game all round.

No, this is Fountain’s (see poster above) words / post I was responding to…nothing to do with LM’s post match comments.

I can critique LM’s if you like!

Seriously though, I had no real issues with what LM said post-match, apart from he used the word “fight” and I thought we weren’t “righty” today.

Edited April 6 by Davefevs

[LondonBristolian]

To give credit where it is due to Manning, he has now just about done enough for me to go from the "this isn't going to work" camp to "the jury's still out". Ten days ago I thought the end was inevitable and would be swifter than many predicted.

I felt there would be a fair chance that we'd fail to beat Leicester, Plymouth or Sunderland and - had I been forced to place a bet on when Manning's tenure would end - I would have picked a seven day window from tomorrow until the day after Huddersfield as I thought that was the point was his position would become untenable.

There is no doubt at all he has proved me wrong in terms of my sense that we were in an irrevocable downhill slide. There is still a fair bit to do to move me into a position where I'm optimistic about next season. Oddly the games against Blackburn and Huddersfield are probably far more significant to my judgement than the Leicester game. We already knew we could produce the occasional outstanding performance against top teams. What Manning needs to convince me of is that we can win those games against struggling teams that sit back and hit us on the counter.

At the moment, I feel more positive than I did ten days ago but I also feel like I'm in danger of falling for the Lee Johnson bounce where a run of results at the right time masks a general sense of overall underperformance.  

7 points in 3 is great but our results in general have not been and we still don't know what the "true" Bristol City is. We've now got five games where Manning has a chance to demonstrate he can get us performing consistently well and pick up points against struggling sides. It sounds a harsh assessment but, looking at what the fixtures are, 7 points or less from those 5 would maintain my sense of underachievement, 8 - 10 points would feel like "par" and only 11 or more points from the last five would make me start to feel like I could approach next season with optimism. 

Edited April 6 by LondonBristolian

[Jimmyjimmy]

Good point.

[Sleepy1968]

2 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

He also changed us to a back 5. That's not an attacking change. 

This. At half time he as happy to take the point. 

When you're that awful in the first half (First 5-10 mins aside), surely you're happy  not to get battered in the second half.

However badly you think LM set up the team, there were some poor performers today. That's on them.

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, Sleepy1968 said:

When you're that awful in the first half (First 5-10 mins aside), surely you're happy  not to get battered in the second half.

However badly you think LM set up the team, there were some poor performers today. That's on them.

Agree to n extent, but when you saw how relatively easy they were to create against when we did put 5 passes together, there is a feeling of “missed opportunity”.

[phantom]

3 hours ago, David Brent said:

I’d be disappointed that our head coach couldn’t get his team interested. Sunderland looked up for it so I’m not buying that.

We still have 5 to play. Or should we not bother?

Completely out of his control, I'm sure you have seen many previous footballers of all experience and ability do just the same many times before 

[cidered abroad]

1 hour ago, Fontaineofallknowledge said:

So you'd still sack manning?

I would.

[frenchred]

1 hour ago, Fontaineofallknowledge said:

So you'd still sack manning?

Definitely! So far out of his depth it's frightening

[phantom]

2 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

If I went in to work and created a bad situation but then stabilised that bad situation, I'm not sure my client would be giving me any credit! 

Why should we accept having a head coach that is learning? 

I'm pleased to hear you've never had a bad day at the office. I wonder if your colleagues would feel the same 

One thing to your credit, win, lose or draw, great performance or bad performance you are still posting the same dull nonsense day after day on here 

I do wonder why you bother watching games or even posting on here if you don't enjoy it so much 

16 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Agree to n extent, but when you saw how relatively easy they were to create against when we did put 5 passes together, there is a feeling of “missed opportunity”.

Very true, but sadly the team we've had on the pitch this season have consistently been like this all season 

Sadly a change in Manager hasn't seen a massive improvement 

1 hour ago, redkev said:

If there spending a night out up in Newcastle they might end up dropping Bristol city as there adopted 2nd team and getting friendly with the Geordies quality every time I have stayed in Newcastle and I have been there a fair few times 

Fortunately their friendships go much deeper than having a great night out.

They're currently happily enjoying their evening, some great photos coming back from everyone out together 

[Rudolf Hucker]

2 minutes ago, phantom said:

win, lose or draw, great performance or bad performance you are still posting the same dull nonsense day after day on here

Spot on. 

[AshtonGreat]

10 minutes ago, frenchred said:

Definitely! So far out of his depth it's frightening

Recent results suggest otherwise

[Superjack]

3 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

I absolutely despise how Manning sets us up to not lose. To protect his own record and position. What we witnessed today was not what fans want to see. 

 

 

 

 

LJ MKIi.

1 minute ago, AshtonGreat said:

Recent results suggest otherwise

Depends how recent.

[JoeAman08]

2 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

If I went in to work and created a bad situation but then stabilised that bad situation, I'm not sure my client would be giving me any credit! 

Why should we accept having a head coach that is learning? 

Because we are bristol city. You suggest we just keep signing the rotation of managers instead? Rowett, Monk, Warnock or Mowbray? 
 

Whether Manning works or not. Whether LJ works or not. We need to think outside the box in our signings of players and managers. 

2 hours ago, RedJim said:

Some good points there. But (and I know it's been done to death) we were sold a pup by the chairman and Tinnion with this front foot bollocks. 

And do you think our owners will be investing enough to buy these quality forward players that we so clearly need?

I have very little faith in seeing a marked improvement next season. 

 

They need to invest. Whether they will or not remains to be seen. We know they lied but we should not hold that against Manning. If they want the football he wants to play they need to invest in some quality up front. 

[firstdivision]

57 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Short answer…yes.

Longer answer, because…two decent performances (and two good results, one of which was excellent) has been followed by a shitty performance and a lucky result imho.  So 3 games of a mix, don’t influence heavily enough the view I established over 27 previous games.

When James Piercy asked Hoggy on Thursday whether they’d used the two week break to change a couple of things, spoon feeding him “higher press” and “higher intensity” of the Leicester and Plymouth matches in the way he framed the question, I sat there with baited breath for the answer.  I expected a “yeah, we’ve picked up on a couple things, and tweaked it”.  Had I heard that I’d have started to think that maybe that stubborn streak of LM isn’t a rigid as I thought, and I could then start to look out for these “new signs”.

Instead, he said pretty categorically (paraphrased) “no, that was just down to the way our opponents play, gave us different spaces.”

So, I’m back to the cart (our opponent) driving the horse (LM’s game plan), not our head-coach being dynamic by instilling his identity rather than playing a weekly game of how do I tweak for this opponent, how do I tweak for that one.

Of course he may have been economical with the truth, a bit of pride trying to be retained, so today was a biggy for me.

So, I came away from that hugely despondent and no change in my stance.  And therefore today was hardly gonna change it was it?

So, if I were in charge I’d still sack him.  I’m not, so it’s just a case of “this is what I’d do”.  I don’t expect that many on here have reached a black and white position, like I have.  Most will want to see how he does over time.  I don’t.

+++

I did enjoy hearing from Hogg though, I thought he talked well, but the answer to JP’s question was like a dagger!!!

No, this is Fountain’s (see poster above) words / post I was responding to…nothing to do with LM’s post match comments.

I can critique LM’s if you like!

Seriously though, I had no real issues with what LM said post-match, apart from he used the word “fight” and I thought we weren’t “righty” today.

What does success or failure look like under Liam Manning for you, Dave? (I suppose I mean next season for now - let’s start with that.)

[Bristol Oil Services]

52 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

 

7 points in 3 is great but our results in general have not been and we still don't know what the "true" Bristol City is. We've now got five games where Manning has a chance to demonstrate he can get us performing consistently well and pick up points against struggling sides. It sounds a harsh assessment but, looking at what the fixtures are, 7 points or less from those 5 would maintain my sense of underachievement, 8 - 10 points would feel like "par" and only 11 or more points from the last five would make me start to feel like I could approach next season with optimism. 

Yeah we do, it's stuck somewhere between about 14th in the Championship/second tier, and just a little bit higher than where the Blue Few currently fester in L1. Letting in a little too many, not scoring quite enough. In front of about 12,000 people.

So we're doing alright, as things stand. Manning in (until ....)

[redkev]

22 minutes ago, phantom said:

I'm pleased to hear you've never had a bad day at the office. I wonder if your colleagues would feel the same 

One thing to your credit, win, lose or draw, great performance or bad performance you are still posting the same dull nonsense day after day on here 

I do wonder why you bother watching games or even posting on here if you don't enjoy it so much 

Very true, but sadly the team we've had on the pitch this season have consistently been like this all season 

Sadly a change in Manager hasn't seen a massive improvement 

Fortunately their friendships go much deeper than having a great night out.

They're currently happily enjoying their evening, some great photos coming back from everyone out together 

Was tongue in cheek phantom I have met a fair few of them on a fair few occasions at the Lions , Ashton gate , silver spoons at Wembley and a fair few away games , there a very lively bunch I will give them that and very protective 

not been to Tilburg yet though 

[phantom]

Just now, Bristol Oil Services said:

Yeah we do, it's stuck somewhere between about 14th in the Championship/second tier, and just a little bit higher than where the Blue Few currently fester in L1. Letting in a little too many, not scoring quite enough. In front of about 12,000 people.

So we're doing alright, as things stand. Manning in (until ....)

Pretty much where we have been for years and probably will stay for a definite near future 

It's amazing how quickly others forget this 

[phantom]

3 minutes ago, redkev said:

Was tongue in cheek phantom I have met a fair few of them on a fair few occasions at the Lions , Ashton gate , silver spoons at Wembley and a fair few away games , there a very lively bunch I will give them that and very protective 

not been to Tilburg yet though 

Exactly the same as me 

I must admit I'm envious of the photos I see from Tilburg 

For anyone local, sounds like the Beehive is rocking 

[redkev]

2 minutes ago, phantom said:

Exactly the same as me 

I must admit I'm envious of the photos I see from Tilburg 

[frenchred]

22 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

Recent results suggest otherwise

Even you can't spin it that the blokes doing well

[Davefevs]

23 minutes ago, firstdivision said:

What does success or failure look like under Liam Manning for you, Dave? (I suppose I mean next season for now - let’s start with that.)

Honestly, I won’t know until we see what happens over the rest of this season and the summers ins and outs.

But let’s just assume we get Tins no9 and no10 as per what he’s said as the significant signings and a bit of tit for tat with anyone else who leaves, gets replaced.

All things being equal, I’d expect:

• success to be playoffs
• met expectations to be a bloody good tilt at the playoffs, right in it up to the end(ish)
• failure a plodding season or worse

of course it can’t be as black and white as the above, but you get the gist.  It can’t be a plodding season.  I doubt  that would get him the sack either, I think bottom half would be though.

Nor do I hope it’s 46 games like Swansea’s performance either.

Whatever I think of Conway, losing him is not like losing Scott or Semenyo.

+++

how about you?

Edited April 6 by Davefevs

[phantom]

100% agree

[RedM]

I don't like all the sacking stuff, managers being given only part of a season to prove their worth....

However, and it's a huge however, it really feels to me like Manning is some sort of an interim Manager until we get the 'proper' one in. He is holding the fort, keeping things steady and unspectacular until the new appointment.

Obviously I do know that isn't the case, but that's how I tend to mentally treat him. I don't think of him as being sacked, just stepping aside when the new man arrives.

 

Then I realise there isn't anyone, no new Manager, and I realise, well 'Agggghhhh' sums it up

[Robbored]

4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Honestly, I won’t know until we see what happens over the rest of this season and the summers ins and outs.

But let’s just assume we get Tins no9 and no10 as per what he’s said as the significant signings and a bit of tit for tat with anyone else who leaves, gets replaced.

All things being equal, I’d expect:

• success to be playoffs
• met expectations to be a bloody good tilt at the playoffs, right in it up to the end(ish)
• failure a plodding season or worse

of course it can’t be as black and white as the above, but you get the gist.  It can’t be a plodding season.  I doubt  that would get him the sack either, I think bottom half would be though.

Nor do I hope it’s 46 games like Swansea’s performance either.

Whatever I think of Conway, losing him is not like losing Scott or Semenyo.

Spot on Dave, particularly the highlighted bits - I think most serious City fans would completely agree.

[Sir Geoff]

2 hours ago, Fontaineofallknowledge said:

It wasn't that bad given the conditions. Ground out a decent point on the road. 7 points in 3 games since the bed wetters called for mannings head-hope there's enough humble pie to go round!

Given the conditions !!

Did you make the same allowance when we ground out a point in the opening home game of the season ?

[Fontaineofallknowledge]

27 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Honestly, I won’t know until we see what happens over the rest of this season and the summers ins and outs.

But let’s just assume we get Tins no9 and no10 as per what he’s said as the significant signings and a bit of tit for tat with anyone else who leaves, gets replaced.

All things being equal, I’d expect:

• success to be playoffs
• met expectations to be a bloody good tilt at the playoffs, right in it up to the end(ish)
• failure a plodding season or worse

of course it can’t be as black and white as the above, but you get the gist.  It can’t be a plodding season.  I doubt  that would get him the sack either, I think bottom half would be though.

Nor do I hope it’s 46 games like Swansea’s performance either.

Whatever I think of Conway, losing him is not like losing Scott or Semenyo.

+++

how about you?

That Swansea performance was absolutely fine-we desperately needed a win that day and so we kept it tight and nicked one. You need to take the context of the position we are in, the opposition and the conditions for each match 

[Ashtongreight]

1 hour ago, AshtonGreat said:

Recent results suggest otherwise

But many of the previous ones don’t. I wouldn’t judge on a couple of poor results, but equally I won’t judge on a couple of decent ones. So far on balance the poor have outweighed the good. My gut feeling is it was a bad appointment, but I’m willing to be persuaded. My biggest concern is who is going to pick his successor. 

Edited April 6 by Ashtongreight

[AshtonGreat]

1 minute ago, Ashtongreight said:

But many of the previous ones don’t. I wouldn’t judge on a couple of poor results, but equally I won’t judge on a couple of decent ones. So far on balance the poor have outweighed the good. My gut feeling is it was a bad appointment, but I’m willing to be persuaded. My biggest concern who is going to pick his successor. 

Thing is, even if you include all of Manning's 26 league results, they're really not much worse than Pearson's last 26 games in charge. Maybe by a couple of percent, but that's it

[Jimmyjimmy]

2 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

Thing is, even if you include all of Manning's 26 league results, they're really not much worse than Pearson's last 26 games in charge. Maybe by a couple of percent, but that's it

Well said.