The penalty

[1960maaan]

17 minutes ago, Three Lions said:

but that changes when it stops the cross as he has gained an advantage. that not totally correct advantage in the box applies to scoring a goal although the word advantage is not used in the laws. doesnt apply to the defending team. example slide tackle? arm in natural  position but stops cross from one two metres away offence? no. advantage gained doesn't apply.

I thought I'd get pulled up on that as I typed it.

What I meant , and this is coming from someone who only played at a shite level , when you dive into challenges your arms come out naturally . You never put them out other than to give you balance.  Now for the new VAR years they tend to think if the arm is out it is un natural when it comes to Penalties. 
So what I meant , and put it really badly , for me the guys arms are in a natural position as they go where they go in thoase circumstances. 
Then , as the arms are away from the body and they arm stops a cross it's going to be given as handball quite often.
The ball was prevented from going into the box and possibly creating a chance , that's what I meant by him gaining an advantage . I wasn't referring to the advantage rule . 
Not sure I've explained myself much better now. 

[1960maaan]

37 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Thats is not in the laws of the game. 

Poorly put by me, see my explanation above. 

May make more sense , possibly.

Edited April 15 by 1960maaan

[Three Lions]

31 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

I thought I'd get pulled up on that as I typed it.

What I meant , and this is coming from someone who only played at a shite level , when you dive into challenges your arms come out naturally . You never put them out other than to give you balance.  Now for the new VAR years they tend to think if the arm is out it is un natural when it comes to Penalties. 
So what I meant , and put it really badly , for me the guys arms are in a natural position as they go where they go in thoase circumstances. 
Then , as the arms are away from the body and they arm stops a cross it's going to be given as handball quite often.
The ball was prevented from going into the box and possibly creating a chance , that's what I meant by him gaining an advantage . I wasn't referring to the advantage rule . 
Not sure I've explained myself much better now. 

Welcome to the same level club fella. You made perfect sense with that one and you are right. The players arms are 100% all day long in natural position and that's in the laws. Not moving them would  be unnatural and the player isn't putting them above his head waving them about they are in  natural position for his body and his movement and justifiable using the laws of he game. Advantage isn't a law there. Whats happening is here a ref has applied something that isn't in the laws her interpretation and your right it happens frequently, too frequently and should be better. In EUFA games everything seems to be a handball offence in the box but not outside it refs there again have applied something that isn't in the laws its their interpretation. 

At the top ifab who are the bosses of the laws of the game send out reminders and examples of what are handball offences, they've changed wording of offences maybe too much trying to improve how the laws get applied. and took the focus on distance away from the ball which i dont think was a great idea. 

Edited April 15 by Three Lions

[Colemanballs]

His hand is above his shoulder which, as far as I am aware, is never considered to be in a natural position.

[Three Lions]

55 minutes ago, Colemanballs said:

His hand is above his shoulder which, as far as I am aware, is never considered to be in a natural position.

 

natural can be above shoulder and the ball striking a arm/hand above the shoulder doesnt have to be a offence. Its never been a never but there was a law about above the shoulder years back which is not in the laws of the game anymore. Doing a gert star jump and ball strikes arm would be an offence. Running around arms pointing north ball hits arms offence. Its not natural and its making the body unnaturally bigger,.  

Edited April 15 by Three Lions

[Red-Robbo]

. A player is not deemed to have committed an offence if he/she handles the ball while falling “and the hand/arm is between the body and the ground to support the body, but not extended laterally or vertically away from the body”. 

So, if it had struck his other arm, no handball. Waving arm for balance, even though not deliberate, handball. 

[Three Lions]

35 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

So, if it had struck his other arm, no handball. Waving arm for balance, even though not deliberate, handball. 

 

Robbo your referring to guidance to law 12 from ifab prior to 2022 and law 12 handball was rewritten since then. 

Edit checked. Handball laws changed twice since 2021. 

Edited April 15 by Three Lions

[AppyDAZE]

It took the ref ages to calm down the protests. Sorry, but there is no way there was "little complaining".

In my view, it's one those you get one week, the next you don't .

Overall, we got a bit lucky and they didn't.

Hard to feel too much sympathy as they were guilty of some of the worst time wasting since Warnock's Rotherham.

Time indeed to move on.

 

 

[Red-Robbo]

5 minutes ago, Three Lions said:

 

Robbo your referring to guidance to law 12 from ifab prior to 2022 and law 12 handball was rewritten since then.

 You're right although according to the 2023 PL guidelines it's still a handball if "The player falls and the hand/arm is extended laterally or vertically away from the body". IFAB still distinguish between a supporting hand/arm and the other arm. Most of the rule changes seem to cover deflections. 

The rules that come into force next season (and already are applied in European competitions) seem to suggest that if it hits the upper part of the arm and the position is accidental and "justifiable" by a player's action, that would no longer be considered handball. 

As ever, it's very much at the ref's discretion if they think the movement of an arm is natural and thereby justifiable or exaggerated and therefore unnatural. 

Having read what's coming in, I don't think it clarifies the law at all. 

[wayne allisons tongues]

With any law in football it is all open to interpretation. I would say Huddersfield one is a pen sliding in with arm raised away from body, trying to make himself larger is an unnatural position. 
 

Played football to a reasonable standard and quite easy to dive in with one arm beside you and other away from ball controlling the slide/jump.

 

Bournemouth one, I would say no pen. To me looks like he’s moving out the way of the deflection  (natural turn and was above the shirt line).  One not given is a joke (ref gave a trip  so block after doesn’t count in the box) big cop out by VAR to cover there error.
 

What one person says is a pen another will say no.

Edited April 15 by wayne allisons tongues

[CiderJar]

I suspect that this was probably the referees fault...

 

[Open End Numb Legs]

Having read through the comments, I say in summary that the Hudd fans should be complaining about the laws, not the ref who applied them.

As I have said before, I am always more understanding of refs decisions in that live moment than those of VAR who have more time and more views to get it right.

As regards looking at other sports for ideas, I wonder how football would cope with a physio on the pitch whilst the game carries on if he or she was some distance from play?

[Cowshed]

10 minutes ago, Open End Numb Legs said:

.

As regards looking at other sports for ideas, I wonder how football would cope with a physio on the pitch whilst the game carries on if he or she was some distance from play?

Its a health and safety issue. In a fast moving mobile game. Players safety comes first. 

[Open End Numb Legs]

1 minute ago, Cowshed said:

Its a health and safety issue. In a fast moving mobile game. Players safety comes first. 

Yep, you are probably right.

Seeing as we have spider cam at a lot of grounds, could we use those support cables to have a small grabber crane a bit like those children's toy dispensers?

We could scoop up the injured player and drop them into the technical area to be treated? Game continues....

When I say drop them, not from a great height. Let's say place them instead.

[Cowshed]

2 minutes ago, Open End Numb Legs said:

Yep, you are probably right.

Seeing as we have spider cam at a lot of grounds, could we use those support cables to have a small grabber crane a bit like those children's toy dispensers?

We could scoop up the injured player and drop them into the technical area to be treated? Game continues....

When I say drop them, not from a great height. Let's say place them instead.

I would not advise this but I have seen an injured player transported off the pitch in a wheel barrow at a AYL game. There are worlds of court cases out there. 

[Back of the Dolman]

23 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Its a health and safety issue. In a fast moving mobile game. Players safety comes first. 

It could be said though that physios able to come on immediately is better for player health and safety.

No delay while play continues waiting for the ball to be kicked out or the referee to stop play.

And let’s remember this subject was brought up in respect of time wasting, I would say it’s plainly obvious when someone needs urgent attention and when it’s a case of someone going down with tactical cramp

[Cowshed]

21 minutes ago, Back of the Dolman said:

It could be said though that physios able to come on immediately is better for player health and safety.

No delay while play continues waiting for the ball to be kicked out or the referee to stop play.

And let’s remember this subject was brought up in respect of time wasting, I would say it’s plainly obvious when someone needs urgent attention and when it’s a case of someone going down with tactical cramp

Play does not continue for a head injury. Play can be stopped instantly if the ref thinks there is a significant/serious injury. Play is stopped for injuries to keepers.

Cramp game is stopped when ball is dead, time is added on. 

[Back of the Dolman]

1 minute ago, Cowshed said:

Play does not continue for a head injury. Play can be stopped instantly if the ref thinks there is a significant/serious injury. Play is stopped for injuries to keepers.

Cramp game is stopped when ball is dead, time is added on. 

There isn’t always an immediate delay for a head injury, the referee still has to stop it ie. The Fabian Schaar incident that Newcastle were unhappy about.

Why the need to stop the game for cramp ? I guarantee you that if the game wasn’t stopped for it you wouldn’t see so many people going down with it.

It’s used to slow down and break up play, no need to add time for it if it can be dealt with while play continues.

I’m aware it won’t suit all situations but I’m pretty confident players won’t go down so quickly when they aren’t gaining a tactical advantage from it

[Cowshed]

1 minute ago, Back of the Dolman said:

There isn’t always an immediate delay for a head injury, the referee still has to stop it ie. The Fabian Schaar incident that Newcastle were unhappy about.

Why the need to stop the game for cramp ? I guarantee you that if the game wasn’t stopped for it you wouldn’t see so many people going down with it.

It’s used to slow down and break up play, no need to add time for it if it can be dealt with while play continues.

I’m aware it won’t suit all situations but I’m pretty confident players won’t go down so quickly when they aren’t gaining a tactical advantage from it

There should be a immediate stoppage for a head injury. There will be occasions where it isn't. 

Cramp. Health an safety.  The part that doesn't always get applied is that the player has to leave the pitch and the player does not have to return to the pitch immediately, the ref can use their discretion till there is a break in play. This was created to cut down on feigned tactical injuries. 

[Back of the Dolman]

3 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

There should be a immediate stoppage for a head injury. There will be occasions where it isn't. 

Cramp. Health a safety.  The part that doesn't always get applied is that the player has to leave the pitch and the player does not have to return to the pitch immediately, the ref can use their discretion till there is a break in play. This was created to cut down on feigned tactical injuries. 

But has it had the effect of stopping it ? I would suggest not.

I’ve said it previously in the thread that although the player has to leave the field for the minimum 30secs and is called back on by the referee, I’m pretty sure that most teams will back themselves having been able to get back into a solid defensive unit to be able to defend for 30secs and then see their player return.

But they will of been able to have the advantage of breaking up the flow of the game, receiving tactical advice from their management and frustrating the play of their opponents.

[Cowshed]

Just now, Back of the Dolman said:

But has it had the effect of stopping it ? I would suggest not.

I’ve said it previously in the thread that although the player has to leave the field for the minimum 30secs and is called back on by the referee, I’m pretty sure that most teams will back themselves having been able to get back into a solid defensive unit to be able to defend for 30secs and then see their player return.

But they will of been able to have the advantage of breaking up the flow of the game, receiving tactical advice from their management and frustrating the play of their opponents.

The game should be stopped. Health and safety. The difference in pain between cramp and a muscle strain is? Not much. Really there is little difference. The difference in consequences are very different. Injury should be assessed on the pitch.

 

 

[Back of the Dolman]

8 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

The game should be stopped. Health and safety. The difference in pain between cramp and a muscle strain is? Not much. Really there is little difference. The difference in consequences are very different. Injury should be assessed on the pitch.

 

 

And I have no issue with players receiving the best treatment in the most timely manner.

But sadly players and clubs are abusing it

[Sixtyseconds]

On 15/04/2024 at 13:14, Red-Robbo said:

. A player is not deemed to have committed an offence if he/she handles the ball while falling “and the hand/arm is between the body and the ground to support the body, but not extended laterally or vertically away from the body”. 

So, if it had struck his other arm, no handball. Waving arm for balance, even though not deliberate, handball. 

Aha.

Your not on the politics forum.

This is where your hiding.

This is a hot topic.

Its on that X thing.

A clip from Bristol City Football Analysis.

It comes up on X thing's you might like as Bristol City Anal.

City are a tough watch.

But I wouldn't go that far.

 

[cityexile]

Just as a rider on this one, Huddersfield manager claiming they got a letter from PGMOL that the decision was wrong. Surprised tbh as it looks one of those 50/50s

 

Edited April 18 by cityexile

[AppyDAZE]

7 minutes ago, cityexile said:

Just as a rider on this one, Huddersfield manager claiming they got a letter from PGMOL that the decision was wrong. Surprised tbh as it looks one of those 59/50s

 

If only Huddersfield had spent a bit more time and energy playing football instead of constantly bleating, maybe they would be in a much more healthy position.

The game's getting stupid if people have to apologise for decisions like that one.

Edited April 18 by AppyDAZE

[AppyDAZE]

Pen to Liverpool . Not too dissimilar...

 

... VAR

Given.