FFP and Chelsea

[Antman]

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2024/apr/19/chelseas-765m-hotel-deals-raise-questions-over-psr-compliance

it is staggering that the powers that be allow the movement of assets between wholly owned subsiduaries of the same company (BlueCo) plus there seems to be no actual market valuation done - thats Trump territory! -

Florist and the Everton lot must be pulling their hair out

 

it's so painfully one rule for most and another for the elite clubs, it's embarrassing

 

 

[wendyredredrobin]

The big clubs can all seem to get away with it.  How can it be that with all their breaches that Man City are not in League 2 by now?

[W-S-M Seagull]

So they essentially sold their hotel to themselves and will still keep all the profits as they will now manage it? 

And without doing that, they'd have breached ffp? 

Absolutely ridiculous that this is allowed. 

[transfer reader]

1 hour ago, wendyredredrobin said:

The big clubs can all seem to get away with it.  How can it be that with all their breaches that Man City are not in League 2 by now?

Because it is a far more complex case and Man City are doing absolutely everything in their power to hinder the investigation.

There's also an issue that some of the information came about from leaks, so there has to be extra precautions taken to not let them use that to make certain stuff inadmissible.

[GrahamC]

Pretty much everything about the Prem is shit.

I know that many want us to get there but having seen us play 4 seasons of top flight football in my life (a totally different, fairer world), I’m genuinely not bothered about joining that circus.

[downendcity]

30 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Pretty much everything about the Prem is shit.

I know that many want us to get there but having seen us play 4 seasons of top flight football in my life (a totally different, fairer world), I’m genuinely not bothered about joining that circus.

Have seen comments from fans of promoted clubs who say that getting there is much more enjoyable than being there.

Obviously not the likes of Brighton!

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

I won't go Chapter and Verse but basically.

It goes down as a Fixed Asset Profit basically to offset Expenditure/Operating Losses.

A host of Championship clubs did this from 2017-18, in practice Spring 2018 to Spring 2021 ie the latter part of 2020-21. The loophole was resealed in Summer 2021 and was mostly Sale and Leaseback.

It isn't entirely if at all, a case of letting off the big club- it is basically a failure in Governance in keeping this escape route open.

Edited April 20 by Mr Popodopolous

[Antman]

2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I won't go Chapter and Verse but basically.

It goes down as a Fixed Asset Profit basically to offset Expenditure/Operating Losses.

A host of Championship clubs did this from 2017-18, in practice Spring 2018 to Spring 2021 ie the latter part of 2020-21. The loophole was resealed in Summer 2021 and was mostly Sale and Leaseback.

It isn't entirely if at all, a case of letting off the big club- it is basically a failure in Governance in keeping this escape route open.

i suppose clubs like Chelski and Man C have got those additional assets (hotels etc) to move about, smaller clubs like florist haven't otherwise they would be doing the same?

Maybe SL fancies a bit of it

[Mr Popodopolous]

Just now, Antman said:

i suppose clubs like Chelski and Man C have got those additional assets (hotels etc) to move about, smaller clubs like florist haven't otherwise they would be doing the same?

Maybe SL fancies a bit of it

I won't go Chapter and Verse bit the loophole shut in 2021 for good reason.

It is an irrelevant consideration under FFP Regs in the Championship, like I say 7 clubs between 2017-18 to 2020-21 did it. I'll double check the full list later.

[The Humble Realist]

4 hours ago, GrahamC said:

Pretty much everything about the Prem is shit.

I know that many want us to get there but having seen us play 4 seasons of top flight football in my life (a totally different, fairer world), I’m genuinely not bothered about joining that circus.

This is a view I share althoguh maybe not as strongly. 

I've never seen city in the top flight and would love to see some of the best players in the world week in week out but I'm not sure how much we would actually enjoy it. 

Have Sheffield united enjoyed this season? Have burnley?

Even teams like forest just seem destined at best to finish 2/3 up the league.

I think I'd also hate how much things are focussed on the big clubs. People moan about sky always choosing leeds etc in the championship...they would lose their minds seeing us overlooked virtually every week in the media in favour of conversations about the big boys. 

All that being said,  obviously do want us to get there because it means we will be doing well. I just wonder if the novelty would soon wear off. 

Edited April 20 by The Humble Realist

[Lanterne Rouge]

5 minutes ago, The Humble Realist said:

This is a view I share althoguh maybe not as strongly. 

I've never seen city in the top flight and would love to see some of the best players in the world week in week out but I'm not sure how much we would actually enjoy it. 

Have Sheffield united enjoyed this season? Have burnley?

Even teams like forest just seem destined at best to finish 2/3 up the league.

I think I'd also hate how much things are focussed on the big clubs. People moan about sky always choosing leeds etc in the championship...they would lose their minds seeing us overlooked virtually every week in the media in favour of conversations about the big boys. 

All that being said,  obviously do want us to get there because it means we will be doing well. I just wonder if the novelty would soon wear off. 

I remember chatting to a couple of Derby fans walking back to the car the season after their awful one up there. I asked them if they enjoyed and they said they did at first but once they realised how much worse they were than the rest it just became a question of how many they were going to get beat by every game. They said they were glad to be back in the Championship and able to compete again.

[Bristol Oil Services]

5 hours ago, GrahamC said:

Pretty much everything about the Prem is shit.

I know that many want us to get there but having seen us play 4 seasons of top flight football in my life (a totally different, fairer world), I’m genuinely not bothered about joining that circus.

So, what are we bothering for then? 

[GrahamC]

2 minutes ago, Bristol Oil Services said:

So, what are we bothering for then? 

No one has to “bother”.

Personally I love being in the Championship, the standard is decent, you play against some huge clubs yet it is still unpredictable enough for a side to beat Leicester & Southampton & to draw twice with Huddersfield.

Seeing clubs like Sheffield Wednesday struggle to even stay in it, Derby & Portsmouth happy to be returning to this level, is why I “bother”.

 

[Bristol Oil Services]

38 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

No one has to “bother”.

Personally I love being in the Championship, the standard is decent, you play against some huge clubs yet it is still unpredictable enough for a side to beat Leicester & Southampton & to draw twice with Huddersfield.

Seeing clubs like Sheffield Wednesday struggle to even stay in it, Derby & Portsmouth happy to be returning to this level, is why I “bother”.

 

Much of what you write there applies to, say, Brentford in the PL. Or Burnley, under Dyche. You sound resigned to our mediocrity here but a regular of this forum might be forgiven for thinking that you are wanting more, and better, from the club, its owner, its staff and management. And matchday officials ........

[Mr Popodopolous]

Brentford last time had a great time, their best ever season certainly position wise.

Notable scalps- Beat Man City twice, hammered Man United 4-0, won at Chelsea, Tottenham, beat Liverpool- drew at Arsenal...

This year not so much but they have been rather wrecked with injuries, teams beginning with Br eh- less injuries in key positions and they would he both more watchable and have more points.

[Mr Popodopolous]

@Antman for your benefit (and anyone else) the EFL and a longer history of it.

1) 2013-14 until 2015-16, EFL has the one year Fixed Asset Rules and Profit (or Loss) on Disposal is adjusted out of FFP, somewhat aligned with UEFA. One year Rules were causing problems of their own, the fine system etc.

2) In late 2014, EFL clubs voted to align with the PL, and the 3 Year Rule we have now comes into being  with the first rolling 2 Year Period ending 2016-17, therefore 2014-15 to 2016-17, 2015-16 to 2017-18 and so on.

3) Somehow that Loophole opened as the Rules changed. Kieran Maguire after the Derby sale suggested that they copied and pasted them across from the PL and didn't do correct due diligence- this made a hitherto shut loophole, potentially open. (Fair Value and timing other issues that srill are relevant).

4) The first major controversy emerged in March 2019. Steve Gibson among others, possibly SL too was very angry and we soon found out why!

5) Derby a regular in and around the top 6 were heading for a financial hole..yet had avoided issues at that time? How.

£81m sale, Profit around £40m Pride Park! Sale and leaseback, they or Reading were maybe first. Both definitely took place by end of June 2018 anyway.

The List of Championship clubs and the nature of their Transactions

2017-18

1. Derby- Pride Park, Sale and Leaseback to commonly owned external company.
2. Reading- Club to immediate Parent, Madejski Stadium- Sale and Leaseback.

2018-19

1. Aston Villa- Villa Park, Sale and Leaseback to commonly owned external company.
2. Birmingham- St Andrews, Sale and Leaseback to external company.
3. Reading- a) Madjeski Stadium Sale and Leaseback from Parent to external company b) Land around Madjeski Stadium sold outright to external company c) Old Training Ground, sold outright to external company.

  2020-21

1. Blackburn- Training Ground, Sale and Leaseback to commonly owned external company.
2. Stoke- Bet365 Stadium and Training Ground, Sale and Leaseback to Bet365.

Category of its own..2017-18 into 2018-19

Technically Sheffield Wednesday sold and placed their Sale and Leaseback of Hillsborough in the season ending 2017-18, however they did not do this in time and they had to move it to the correct year. This meant they failed to the extent of £18m above Upper Loss limit and a 12 Points deduction. The EFL shared some blame. Was halved on Appeal but relegated anyway.

Clubs unanimously decided in Summer 2021 that this was bringing the competition into disrepute or that the Rules needed tightening so it is no longer a relevant transaction for FFP. Not banned, simply irrelevant.

The PL should have had a formal vote on this, didn't but despite that it still must be Fair Value and is challengeable on these grounds and perhaps challengeable if the Rent is too low if Chelsea still benefit from Revenue eg

For an outright sale it surely must be derecognised, for a Sale and Leaseback there must be a Fair Market Rent that reflects such transactions.

Edited April 20 by Mr Popodopolous

[Swede]

10 hours ago, GrahamC said:

Pretty much everything about the Prem is shit.

I know that many want us to get there but having seen us play 4 seasons of top flight football in my life (a totally different, fairer world), I’m genuinely not bothered about joining that circus.

I understand the sentiment but I'd like to think we'll turn the tables at some point and buy the likes of Solanke from that nothing club. That will only happen if we get into the Premier League.

[fgrsimon]

12 hours ago, GrahamC said:

Pretty much everything about the Prem is shit.

I know that many want us to get there but having seen us play 4 seasons of top flight football in my life (a totally different, fairer world), I’m genuinely not bothered about joining that circus.

It's VAR that would ruin it for me. It's taken away the one fundamental pleasure in watching football - celebrating a goal.

Last weekend I did the very old-style thing of watching MOTD without knowing the results. I found VAR even ruined that - goal with celebrations, then the camera cut to the Ref speaking into his earpiece, the dreaded "VAR will be having a look at this" and subsequent fannying around with monitors on the side of the pitch. Add to that tedious discussions as to whether someone's fingernail is playing him offside. Worst thing to happen to football IMO.

[Davefevs]

6 hours ago, fgrsimon said:

It's VAR that would ruin it for me. It's taken away the one fundamental pleasure in watching football - celebrating a goal.

You know what, that might just be the most important thing.  Good shout

[Mr Popodopolous]

Good thread/analysis.

Worth noting that the sale and leaseback of Stamford Bridge itself may not be possible owing to the Chelsea pitch owners...unsure what cost and value that constitutes.

[Grey Fox]

On 20/04/2024 at 13:34, GrahamC said:

Pretty much everything about the Prem is shit.

I know that many want us to get there but having seen us play 4 seasons of top flight football in my life (a totally different, fairer world), I’m genuinely not bothered about joining that circus.

Each August we start a new season, it would be nice to try to win the league, or promotion, otherwise there really is little point,

[Eddie Hitler]

1 minute ago, Grey Fox said:

Each August we start a new season, it would be nice to try to win the league, or promotion, otherwise there really is little point,

 

Yes, whilst my views on getting to the premiership hover between not being bothered to active dislike I think that partly a result of my having seen City play (once) at the top level.

The sheer pleasure of promotion to the top league for all those fans who have never seen us up there far outweighs the negative feelings those of us who can remember football before the premiership started have about the current state of the top division.

[harvey54]

On 20/04/2024 at 19:03, Bristol Oil Services said:

So, what are we bothering for then? 

Leicester City. 

Premier League champions and FA Cup winners from nowhere. And they're about the same size as us. As Gilbert (Fridge) used to say

"You's can always dream "