Jon talks...

[W-S-M Seagull]

4 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

Second game in:

 

 

Compare that to Saturday where all of our good chances came from us playing with a direct attacking intent (to our strengths) 

The penalty came from Dickie to Twine to Conway.

[Cowshed]

1 hour ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Yes because all the successful teams in the world are successful because the players are telling the manager how they want to play. 

We have a chairman who admits he doesnt lead. We have a manager who doesn't lead. It's just all rather incredible. 

Discussing leadership styles can be a heavy topic, but there is a Spaniard in charge of one of the best teams in the world who involves the leaders and players into tactical decisions. 

It is democratic leadership. 

 

[Gert Mare]

1 minute ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

In one of the interviews at the time Jon said "ultimately we made the decision because we think the squad is good enough and I believe in it, if we didn't then why make the change, you'd just see things through as they are, but the ultimate reason is I think we have a really good squad here and we've got a good chance of competing at the right end of the table this season" 

In last night's interview, despite us not competing at the right end of the table and Manning not getting the best out of this really good squad, Jon described this season as "broadly positive" 

He's all over the place with his opinions. 

Yep. I listened to both his and Brian Tinnions interviews several times, to get the facts right for the end of season reflection. Jon said "competing at the right end of the table" as well as "best chance of promotion THIS season" and Brian stated "Top end of the division".

"Top 6" has only ever been mentioned on this forum (and may have possibly originated from the Gavin Marshall interview perhaps? - I haven't seen that one so I cannot comment) and were not the exact words from either Jon or Brian. 

I'm just about to listen to what Jon has to say now, although, as integrity is in serious question I'm expecting nothing to marry up with what was stated earlier in the season.

 

 

[W-S-M Seagull]

11 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Discussing leadership styles can be a heavy topic, but there is a Spaniard in charge of one of the best teams in the world who involves the leaders and players into tactical decisions. 

It is democratic leadership. 

 

Sir Alex did that too. 

But the one big difference here is that both Sir Alex and Pep have standing. Those leaders know who the boss is and they operate within that framework.

You cannot in any way try and dress this up and compare it to Pep. Those leaders would not tell Pep how to play. Now maybe from time to time they will notice something on the pitch and suggest something to Pep, but not under any circumstances would a player say to Pep "boss, I don't think we should play this possesion football that you favour" 

As we've seen with Sir Alex and Pep, if you undermine them, you're out. 

Yet here at Ashton Gate we have players having to tell the head coach "boss this is the Championship"

Edited April 30 by W-S-M Seagull

[chinapig]

13 minutes ago, Gert Mare said:

Yep. I listened to both his and Brian Tinnions interviews several times, to get the facts right for the end of season reflection. Jon said "competing at the right end of the table" as well as "best chance of promotion THIS season" and Brian stated "Top end of the division".

"Top 6" has only ever been mentioned on this forum (and may have possibly originated from the Gavin Marshall interview perhaps? - I haven't seen that one so I cannot comment) and were not the exact words from either Jon or Brian. 

I'm just about to listen to what Jon has to say now, although, as integrity is in serious question I'm expecting nothing to marry up with what was stated earlier in the season.

 

 

As I recall Jon subsequently told the Senior Reds that finishing 10th would be success. Top half certainly but I'm not sure many would regard that as top end.

[Cowshed]

Just now, W-S-M Seagull said:

Sir Alex did that too. 

But the one big difference here is that both Sir Alex and Pep have standing. Those leaders know who the boss is and they operate within that framework.

You cannot in any way try and dress this up and compare it to Pep. Those leaders would not tell Pep how to play. 

As we've seen with Sir Alex and Pep, if you undermine them, you're out. 

Yet here at Ashton Gate we have players having to tell the head coach "boss this is the Championship"

I did not compare it to Pep, I answered your point about the Worlds best. 

How do you know Mr Manning was not conducting a pretty normal session of question and answer involving senior players? Asking players what they think is not necessarily players telling the head coach what to do.

What do you think the players do in the class sessions and team meetings they have with the Head coach and coaches? Discuss team approach?

[Kid in the Riot]

10 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Yet here at Ashton Gate we have players having to tell the head coach "boss this is the Championship"

Yes, I'm sure that's exactly what happened, bird-brain. 

[Cowshed]

15 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Sir Alex did that too. 

But the one big difference here is that both Sir Alex and Pep have standing. Those leaders know who the boss is and they operate within that framework.

You cannot in any way try and dress this up and compare it to Pep. Those leaders would not tell Pep how to play. Now maybe from time to time they will notice something on the pitch and suggest something to Pep, but not under any circumstances would a player say to Pep "boss, I don't think we should play this possesion football that you favour" 

As we've seen with Sir Alex and Pep, if you undermine them, you're out. 

Yet here at Ashton Gate we have players having to tell the head coach "boss this is the Championship"

You have edited your post there, but if you are interested in Mr Guardiola he reveals in his book Pep Confidential one of the reasons Guardiola did not mirror football from Barcelona to Bayern was that the players would not have bought into it. Guardiola played with wingers and a centre forward due to the desire of the players to continue to do so.

Edited April 30 by Cowshed

[Galley is our king]

3 minutes ago, chinapig said:

As I recall Jon subsequently told the Senior Reds that finishing 10th would be success. Top half certainly but I'm not sure many would regard that as top end.

Yes he did which is not top end!

Bit rich coming from the bloke who sacked Nige, a few matches after being 9th and in the middle of injury crisis!

Didn't like being put on the spot either

 Don't think he's anywhere near strong enough. Who is there in the hierarchy who will go into battle for the club?

Is it a coincidence that for the first time ever, suddenly we are buying players and loaning them back...

[ProfitInMyPocket]

If we give him millions to spend and we revert back to bore Manningball I am worried for next season. Will be another midtable borefest.

I don't want to become another Man City clone, the football just isn't entertaining for me personally.

[W-S-M Seagull]

3 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

I did not compare it to Pep, I answered your point about the Worlds best. 

How do you know Mr Manning was not conducting a pretty normal session of question and answer involving senior players? Asking players what they think is not necessarily players telling the head coach what to do.

What do you think the players do in the class sessions and team meetings they have with the Head coach and coaches? Discuss team approach?

My comment was a sarcastic comment because the worlds best managers do not have to have players telling them how to play. 

It's absolutely ludicrous for anyone to suggest it should be a collaborative effort. What's next, players picking the staying line up? 

That Spaniard you mention of course being Pep. 

Pep has very clear philosophies. We may see tactical tweaks within the framework of those philosophies but the philosophies do not change and would not be changed by pressure from above or by the players. 

This ultimately goes all the way back to Manning ball not being what the club wanted. Dress it up however you want, no one should have had to tell Manning that he should be playing to our strengths. That's a critical terminal error in his management. 

[W-S-M Seagull]

8 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Yes, I'm sure that's exactly what happened, bird-brain. 

 

8 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Yes, I'm sure that's exactly what happened, bird-brain. 

Come on then Kid, stop acting like your name and you tell us why there was a sudden change. 

We're all waiting. 

[Red-Robbo]

31 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

 

In last night's interview, despite us not competing at the right end of the table and Manning not getting the best out of this really good squad, Jon described this season as "broadly positive" 

He's all over the place with his opinions. 

 

What's the right end of the table? We're finishing in the top half of the table - best 9th, worse 12th and have beaten a number of the Top 6 sides, not to mention a PL club.

He might talk shite for much of what he says, but he's correct in that it's ending "broadly positive", with very good form and more than one player stepping up and playing very well. 

As to whether anyone would finish higher than 9th with the same squad, that's total guesswork. Pearson had us at 8th at one point, but didn't hold that position. We just don't know where we'd be if he had stayed. 

[W-S-M Seagull]

5 minutes ago, Galley is our king said:

Yes he did which is not top end!

Bit rich coming from the bloke who sacked Nige, a few matches after being 9th and in the middle of injury crisis!

Didn't like being put on the spot either

 Don't think he's anywhere near strong enough. Who is there in the hierarchy who will go into battle for the club?

Is it a coincidence that for the first time ever, suddenly we are buying players and loaning them back...

I think Jon's heart is in the right place. 

I don't doubt that this club means a lot to him and that he wants the best for it. 

However his leadership is severely compromised because he just has no credibility because his expectations are all over the place. 

We need strong leadership from the top down and unfortunately this isn't in Jon's skillset. 

[Ashtongreight]

2 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

My comment was a sarcastic comment because the worlds best managers do not have to have players telling them how to play. 

It's absolutely ludicrous for anyone to suggest it should be a collaborative effort. What's next, players picking the staying line up? 

That Spaniard you mention of course being Pep. 

Pep has very clear philosophies. We may see tactical tweaks within the framework of those philosophies but the philosophies do not change and would not be changed by pressure from above or by the players. 

This ultimately goes all the way back to Manning ball not being what the club wanted. Dress it up however you want, no one should have had to tell Manning that he should be playing to our strengths. That's a critical terminal error in his management. 

Pep can go out and buy the best players in the world to fit his philosophies, Liam can’t, so he has to adapt to the players he has, it’s a completely different scenario.

[Kid in the Riot]

1 minute ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Come on then Kid, stop acting like your name and you tell us why there was a sudden change. 

We're all waiting. 

This recent run of good form is killing you, isn't it?

Lest we forget our dramatic upturn in form last season came about after Nige stumbled upon a formation change at half time to Swansea in a cup game. 

Football isn't quite as simple as you make out, bird-brain... 

[Cowshed]

1 minute ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

My comment was a sarcastic comment because the worlds best managers do not have to have players telling them how to play. 

It's absolutely ludicrous for anyone to suggest it should be a collaborative effort. What's next, players picking the staying line up? 

That Spaniard you mention of course being Pep. 

Pep has very clear philosophies. We may see tactical tweaks within the framework of those philosophies but the philosophies do not change and would not be changed by pressure from above or by the players. 

This ultimately goes all the way back to Manning ball not being what the club wanted. Dress it up however you want, no one should have had to tell Manning that he should be playing to our strengths. That's a critical terminal error in his management. 

I don't know what a staying line is.

Football tactics are collaborative. Aptitudes v task have to be synced. Bristol City's keeper did not suddenly start making more interventions outside of his box. didn't suddenly decide himself to use differing starting positions. The player and players will be involved and asked how they feel about it. Its standard to include players in tactical alteration and this promotes responsibility and player buy in. 

 

[Glen hump]

1 minute ago, Kid in the Riot said:

This recent run of good form is killing you, isn't it?

Lest we forget our dramatic upturn in form last season came about after Nige stumbled upon a formation change at half time to Swansea in a cup game. 

Football isn't quite as simple as you make out, bird-brain... 

football is a really simple game’ it’s just over complicated by text book coaches.

[W-S-M Seagull]

2 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

What's the right end of the table? We're finishing in the top half of the table - best 9th, worse 12th and have beaten a number of the Top 6 sides, not to mention a PL club.

He might talk shite for much of what he says, but he's correct in that it's ending "broadly positive", with very good form and more than one player stepping up and playing very well. 

As to whether anyone would finish higher than 9th with the same squad, that's total guesswork. Pearson had us at 8th at one point, but didn't hold that position. We just don't know where we'd be if he had stayed. 

Based on all the various interviews that was given by various people. The right end of the table is considered to be the play offs and above. Only you will know why you're trying to downplay that. 

He didn't say the ending of the season was broadly positive. He said the whole season was broadly positive which does not marry with his previous comments. 

We've broadly stood still and Jon sees that as a positive. 

[mozo]

1 hour ago, Silvio Dante said:

The first 10-12 games of next season are massive. If the “intent” changes to pre Easter it’ll tell us a lot.

I don't really mind if it's a low block or a high press etc, so long as we're performing to our level and getting results. The intent stuff is a secondary concern to 'performing' and succeeding imo. Obviously I appreciate that there is a view that the two will go hand in hand.

Realistically, I expect Manning will mix it up.

 

Edited April 30 by mozo

[W-S-M Seagull]

10 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

This recent run of good form is killing you, isn't it?

Lest we forget our dramatic upturn in form last season came about after Nige stumbled upon a formation change at half time to Swansea in a cup game. 

Football isn't quite as simple as you make out, bird-brain... 

For you to suggest how a good run of form is "killing you" gives a hige insight into your own mindset. 

You do realise it's possible to be happy with good form but be unhappy with the overall picture right? 

You can't let your dislike of Nigel go can you? You must still have nightmares about him. Did he take away your sweets, Kid? 

I notice you avoided my question, is the simplicity of football above your pay grade? 

Great to see you've remembered your login details after a run of good form BTW. 

Edited April 30 by W-S-M Seagull

[Red-Robbo]

2 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Based on all the various interviews that was given by various people. The right end of the table is considered to be the play offs and above. Only you will know why you're trying to downplay that. 

He didn't say the ending of the season was broadly positive. He said the whole season was broadly positive which does not marry with his previous comments. 

We've broadly stood still and Jon sees that as a positive. 

 

I think in one interview in the close season Lansdown Jr said Top 6 was the target. That's what pretty much all chairmen say and most managers too. It doesn't mean "we are guaranteed to be Top 6 and anything else is a failure".  Personally, I don't think we have the squad for it nor did we under the last manager.

However, it does seem to bend you out of shape that we ARE finishing higher up than before, potentially 4 places, and we had a short but lucrative cup run plus various underperforming players now look better under LM than they did before.

We await to see what the summer brings. Steve Evans thinks we're 2 or 3 players away from being contenders. I think he's right. 

[Kid in the Riot]

2 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

For you to suggest how a good run of form is "killing you" gives a hige insight into your own mindset. 

You do realise it's possible to be happy with good form but be unhappy with the overall picture right? 

You can't let your dislike of Nigel go can you? You must still have nightmares about him. Did he take away your sweets, Kid? 

Really like Nige, but it's funny how the narrative is very different from some posters (such as yourself) on Manning and Nige. 

If Manning and the players have spoke, and that has led to a positive tactical tweak and change in mindset, then great. As others have pointed out, that is a good leadership trait to have. Yet according to some this is evidence he's abandoned his principles 

[chinapig]

19 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

My comment was a sarcastic comment because the worlds best managers do not have to have players telling them how to play. 

It's absolutely ludicrous for anyone to suggest it should be a collaborative effort. What's next, players picking the staying line up? 

That Spaniard you mention of course being Pep. 

Pep has very clear philosophies. We may see tactical tweaks within the framework of those philosophies but the philosophies do not change and would not be changed by pressure from above or by the players. 

This ultimately goes all the way back to Manning ball not being what the club wanted. Dress it up however you want, no one should have had to tell Manning that he should be playing to our strengths. That's a critical terminal error in his management. 

I think you overstate your case. While final decisions will rest with Pep (or any manager) that doesn't mean he doesn't take into account the views of players. That's collaborative leadership, the hallmark of the best leaders imo.

[Silvio Dante]

7 minutes ago, mozo said:

I don't really mind if it's a low block or a high press etc, so long as we're performing to our level and getting results. The intent stuff is a secondary concern to 'performing' and succeeding imo. Obviously I appreciate that there is a view that the two will go hand in hand.

Realistically, I expect Manning will mix it up.

 

Depends dunnit?

A run of unexciting 1-0 wins where the football is turgid won’t have anyone complaining short term, but also won’t probably buy major credit long term. It’d be churlish to suggest if we’re winning people will complain about the outcome (however, noting red flags on the wins - like - gulp - result vs XG is something different).
 

The broader point for me is that v1 didn’t work, so a lock stock back to it with the same players (broadly) isn’t likely to work. A “mix it up” is fine and I’d agree that’s where we may land - but I’d hope v2 would be the “base”

Anyway, I think we’re interrupting a wider dispute so probably for another thread!

[TonyTonyTony]

1 minute ago, Kid in the Riot said:

If Manning and the players have spoke, and that has led to a positive tactical tweak and change in mindset, then great. As others have pointed out, that is a good leadership trait to have. 

Pretty sure the great Bobby Robson took advice from Senior England players in Italia 90, when they changed formation and played a Sweeper. The best Leaders use every resource available to them.

[W-S-M Seagull]

2 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

I think in one interview in the close season Lansdown Jr said Top 6 was the target. That's what pretty much all chairmen say and most managers too. It doesn't mean "we are guaranteed to be Top 6 and anything else is a failure".  Personally, I don't think we have the squad for it nor did we under the last manager.

However, it does seem to bend you out of shape that we ARE finishing higher up than before, potentially 4 places, and we had a short but lucrative cup run plus various underperforming players now look better under LM than they did before.

We await to see what the summer brings. Steve Evans thinks we're 2 or 3 players away from being contenders. I think he's right. 

Jon said a lot about getting the message out there. 

The message was very clear. The expectation was not to stand still. It was to progress. Standing still isn't progress. It's not a positive. If you do not meet your expectations it's a failure. 

If people are changing their expectations based on how the sesson has gone. Then that takes away any credibility.  

I was very very clear in pre season that I expected us to get closer to the play offs by way of points. That expectation did not change throughout the season. 

So there is no bending out of shape here because weve not done that. 

I find it a hard concept to understand why another Bristol City has an issue with a fellow Bristol City fan being annoyed that their pre season expectations were not met. You are free to go back and check my pre season expectations and you'll see that the expectation for Pearson were the same as I have now. 

You can dress it up however you want. But in my opinion we have at the very most stood still. 

You may consider us to have made a tiny improvement, that's cool. I don't agree. I think you're trying to say that to validate the decisions the club have made. But the reality is all of us expected real progress this season following the reset and that has simply not happened. 

[Malago]

14 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Mate we all know these same people that are applauding Manning for at the very most equalling last season, would have been absolutely raging if Pearson remained and he delivered the same. 

I made it very clear at the start of the season I expected progression. That expectation remained for both managers and it has not been met. 

Offers expectations have suddenly shifted because Manning can do no wrong for them, because of their dislike of Pearson and a shear desperation to be right about Pearson. 

Personally, I couldn’t give a damn whether your expectations have been met or not.  You’re welcome to your opinion, but don’t think for one moment it matters.

[mozo]

6 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

Depends dunnit?

A run of unexciting 1-0 wins where the football is turgid won’t have anyone complaining short term, but also won’t probably buy major credit long term. It’d be churlish to suggest if we’re winning people will complain about the outcome (however, noting red flags on the wins - like - gulp - result vs XG is something different).
 

The broader point for me is that v1 didn’t work, so a lock stock back to it with the same players (broadly) isn’t likely to work. A “mix it up” is fine and I’d agree that’s where we may land - but I’d hope v2 would be the “base”

Anyway, I think we’re interrupting a wider dispute so probably for another thread!

Basically I agree with you.

I deliberately said 'performing', to infer that we are executing the gameplan nicely which I don't think would be turgid. There would just be one or two tactical levers pulled in a different direction.

[W-S-M Seagull]

8 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

As others have pointed out

This doesn't add anything to your arguement. All it shows is that like-minded people like yourself that are desperate to be right are making up complete bs about football to try and validate your opinions. 

If a room of Tory voters say Rishi is the best PM ever, it doesn't make it true does it  

To try and dress this up as a 'collaborative effort' is truly honking. 

Let's not pretend that we are a forward thinking club by having this 'collaborative effort' it's weak.