Tinnion is back!

[Gert Mare]

1 hour ago, Capman said:

 

It’s more than that for me it’s dishonest. The establishment talk with forked tongue. When they want money from the supporters for season tickets and the rest it’s all about an inexorable rise to the holly land of the premier league. But when we fall short they resort to meaningless platitudes like ‘steady progress’ or ‘top end’. 

Getting out of the championship is one of the most difficult things to do in football. You don’t achieve difficult things by making excuses and backing away from difficult conversations. We have gone backwards this season. I accept sometimes you need to do that if you have made a wrong turn, but that does not seem to me to be what has happened. We went backwards because the terrible two were incapable of dealing with an experienced manager who spoke difficult truth to them. That does not bode well for the future. They need to consider if they really have the experience or skill to deliver for the club in the current structure. My view has been for some time that they do not. We have lost a manager and a chief executive who know how to win promotion and now have a leadership which has delivered nothing in football. Of course we may just get lucky and it might work, but if I were a betting man it is not a scenario which would appeal as a gamble. 

A complete lack of moral integrity, and some fans seem to think that’s ok and it’s gone now, so let’s all renew our season tickets.

Not happening. They’re shithouses and need to go.

[ExiledAjax]

5 minutes ago, Capman said:

But my point is that our ‘target’ was not to achieve points, our target is to get promoted. You cannot even start to think of that until you get to 6th place. So you right to say we don’t know before a ball is kicked how many points are needed to get to 6th. But essentially I do not really care. We need to be at least the sixth best team in the league.

I agree we're close to agreeing. 

Yes the target is to get promoted. Yes the only way you can do that is by finishing 6th or higher.

My only point is that you've no idea, when setting "promotion" as a target in July, what it will specifically take to do that. 

But you do know that 72 points gives you a very good chance. We've got no control over what the actual threshold is, but we've got control over way we can aim for.

Aim for 72, measure season to season progress by "are we closer or further from 72". 

8 minutes ago, Capman said:

if we scraped 72 points got 6th and then fluked the playoffs and went up, I would consider that more of a successful season than if we got 90 points finished 3rd and then lost the playoff semi final. Would you not agree? 

Interesting question. On the face of it the flukey promotion scenario is more successful, but only because of it's ultimate outcome.

If you present a 90 point season and a 72 point season and give them the same outcome, then the 90 point season is obviously more successful. It would also be a better indicator of future success, but that's a slightly different discussion.

19 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

This is where your whole trying to put a positive spin on it falls apart. 

We may have finished higher position wise, but we finished 1 point further away from the target than we did last season. That's not progression. That's regression and when you factor in most of us thought this was the season to kick on then it can only be viewed as a failure. 

I think the vital bit you are missing is that most of us (don't try and twist this again) expected us to progress from being a mid table table. To make this clear to you, that's not me saying most expected us to progress into play off challangers, but it's saying most of us expected us to move into that space between being mid table and play off challangers and not even you could argue that we've done that. 

We finished 3 positions higher in the table, and with more points, but because we were 1 (one) point further from an arbitrary moving target, a target that we have no control over and don't even know what it will be when we start the season, we've regressed.

And I'm the one spinning things?

I don't need to twist your "most" of us spiel. It stands on its own two feet for what it is.

[Silvio Dante]

For me, and having had a recent discussion over what is “relegation form” it’s pretty simple. You know that in an average season based on ppg 90 points should see you up, 72 points should see you in the playoffs (and on a similar basis, you need about 48-50 points on average to stay up). And all you can really control is your own outcomes, not how many points are needed for sixth place (other than your two games against competitors).

So, at the start of the season, if you were setting a SMART goal, you’d state you want 72 points in the knowledge that sees you - more often than not - hit the playoffs, as the other (x points off) goal is dependant not on you primarily but on other teams.

How that relates to this season is that we have marginally improved towards the SMART target, but importantly, the current head coach hasn’t improved us from the prior head coach (including Phlegm) on the road towards that based on this season. In fact, there is a sound argument that with continuity and NP in charge we’d see the continued (marginal) linear improvement as opposed to the minor regression as that’s where the trend line was.

So, you have to set the goal based on what you can control. We have moved towards that goal, but importantly, not since the change in management.

[ExiledAjax]

42 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

Phlegm

All hail the great Undefeated.

I'd only add that this SMART target (as you ably name it) largely remains the same season to season (if it's an average of the last 10-15 seasons then it will change very, very slightly with each passing year).

Therefore objective progress free of outside variables and uncontrollables can be measured against it.

Getting closer to it indicates progression regardless of what "most" fans might arbitrarily expect.

Edited May 7 by ExiledAjax

[Capman]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Merits to both sides of the debate.

We can re-open when we hear the next set of ambiguous expectations ahead of next season!

It’s an interesting point Davefevs. In my experience when organisations do not set clear, concise and transparent objectives they tend not to deliver. I wonder if NASA would ever have got to the moon if the senior staff had spent years saying they wanted to perhaps get somewhere closer to the ‘top end’ of the atmosphere in the hope that if they did that for a while they might get to land somewhere on a rock close by. It might sound flippant but it’s the way I feel about the club. There is a complete lack of focus on delivery. They think if they make vague promises and make endless changes eventually something good will happen. It is the triumph of optimism over reality. 

[Davefevs]

Just now, Capman said:

It’s an interesting point Davefevs. In my experience when organisations do not set clear, concise and transparent objectives they tend not to deliver. I wonder if NASA would ever have got to the moon if the senior staff had spent years saying they wanted to perhaps get somewhere closer to the ‘top end’ of the atmosphere in the hope that if they did that for a while they might get to land somewhere on a rock close by. It might sound flippant but it’s the way I feel about the club. There is a complete lack of focus on delivery. They think if they make vague promises and make endless changes eventually something good will happen. It is the triumph of optimism over reality. 

Couldn’t agree more. 

[W-S-M Seagull]

1 hour ago, Capman said:

It’s an interesting point Davefevs. In my experience when organisations do not set clear, concise and transparent objectives they tend not to deliver. I wonder if NASA would ever have got to the moon if the senior staff had spent years saying they wanted to perhaps get somewhere closer to the ‘top end’ of the atmosphere in the hope that if they did that for a while they might get to land somewhere on a rock close by. It might sound flippant but it’s the way I feel about the club. There is a complete lack of focus on delivery. They think if they make vague promises and make endless changes eventually something good will happen. It is the triumph of optimism over reality. 

A lot of our fans have fallen into that trap of thinking we've improved this season. 

I don't get it. Surely the aim every season is to win the league? Win every game etc? And then when that's not likely you then adjust your targets. 

I don't like this whole attitude of being happy of finishing mid table once again. It's not high performance. It's setting a culture that some sort of failure is OK. 

The organisation did set targets. They were missed. Now they and their apologists are trying to frame this season as a positive to try and save face. 

[mozo]

On 06/05/2024 at 13:24, Numero Uno said:

We have improved on points and position, not gonna use difference between play offs and relegation to prove an irrelevant point. What doesn’t go away for me is that run of 13 points in 15 games I think it was after Boxing Day. That cannot happen again.

Well it happened in the 2022-23 season, and then again in 2023-24. So maybe it will happen again!

Bloody hope not, but then we need to enhance our squad.

On 06/05/2024 at 14:13, W-S-M Seagull said:

You'll be happy for me to come back to this post in 12 months time if we get 63 points but finish 6 points off 11th? 

 

Would you be happier if we finished the season in 14th but only 5 points off the playoffs? It'll forever be a 14th place finish and nothing more.

I'll be happy if we increase our points total by 3 points evey season because eventually we'll be promoted.

 

[Slacker]

1 hour ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

A lot of our fans have fallen into that trap of thinking we've improved this season. 

I don't get it. Surely the aim every season is to win the league? Win every game etc? And then when that's not likely you then adjust your targets. 

I don't like this whole attitude of being happy of finishing mid table once again. It's not high performance. It's setting a culture that some sort of failure is OK. 

The organisation did set targets. They were missed. Now they and their apologists are trying to frame this season as a positive to try and save face. 

But it doesn't matter because the were missed partly with LM.It only mattered when they were being missed under NP.

[W-S-M Seagull]

1 hour ago, mozo said:

Well it happened in the 2022-23 season, and then again in 2023-24. So maybe it will happen again!

Bloody hope not, but then we need to enhance our squad.

Would you be happier if we finished the season in 14th but only 5 points off the playoffs? It'll forever be a 14th place finish and nothing more.

I'll be happy if we increase our points total by 3 points evey season because eventually we'll be promoted.

 

Yep. Because I was clear all the way back in pre season (with NP still as manager) that I expected us to reduce the 10 point gap to the play offs. I've been steadfast in that expectation. Others have changed theirs to suit their narrative. 

If you finish within 5 points of the play offs then you're in that conversation. We move from being a team that's bobbing along in mid table to a team that has something to play for. 

We all would be, however football doesn't work like that. If you stand still, you'll go backwards. 

At this moment in time I consider us to further regress next season rather than to aquire 3+ points. 

I could flip this and say if you finish 10 points from the play offs and then 11 points the following season then eventually you'll end up being relegated. But football doesn't work like that. 

 

[real_bristol]

Bloody hell. This thread feels like we’re fighting to reach the bottom. Sifting through a haystack to find the only bad news needle hidden there. I’d go as far to say the negativity of the mainstream media my be the culprit here.

There are improvements since Liam took over. An unbeaten streak for one. How long was Nigel’s best unbeaten run compared to Liams? Then factor in that one bloke had years in charge and the other has had months. Then factor in the number of transfer windows. If we’d have won on Saturday we’d have finished above Coventry which would have been a huge achievement when you look at the season they’ve had.

Nige got the best out of a lot of mediocre players but he couldn’t get as much out of Mehmetti as Liam has.

And as for Tins are we really going to let a few mistakes on social media cover over everything he has achieved with the club as a player and in his academy roles. Look at some of the players he’s brought through. Scott, Semenyo and others featuring regularly in the first team. He may need more guidance than he’s getting and needs to learn from his mistakes, I acknowledge that, but I’m not sure cutting ties with him completely would do us any favours when it comes to player development. 

[David Brent]

17 minutes ago, real_bristol said:

Bloody hell. This thread feels like we’re fighting to reach the bottom. Sifting through a haystack to find the only bad news needle hidden there. I’d go as far to say the negativity of the mainstream media my be the culprit here.

There are improvements since Liam took over. An unbeaten streak for one. How long was Nigel’s best unbeaten run compared to Liams? Then factor in that one bloke had years in charge and the other has had months. Then factor in the number of transfer windows. If we’d have won on Saturday we’d have finished above Coventry which would have been a huge achievement when you look at the season they’ve had.

Nige got the best out of a lot of mediocre players but he couldn’t get as much out of Mehmetti as Liam has.

And as for Tins are we really going to let a few mistakes on social media cover over everything he has achieved with the club as a player and in his academy roles. Look at some of the players he’s brought through. Scott, Semenyo and others featuring regularly in the first team. He may need more guidance than he’s getting and needs to learn from his mistakes, I acknowledge that, but I’m not sure cutting ties with him completely would do us any favours when it comes to player development. 

Comparisons between managers have been done to death.

This thread is about Tinnion’s capabilities as a Technical Director…nothing to do with his playing career. As you say, done great work with the academy. That’s a good role for him. 

To be fair..I hadn’t read the thread and missed all the nonsense about measuring progress etc..

Edited May 8 by David Brent

[Silvio Dante]

28 minutes ago, real_bristol said:

Bloody hell. This thread feels like we’re fighting to reach the bottom. Sifting through a haystack to find the only bad news needle hidden there. I’d go as far to say the negativity of the mainstream media my be the culprit here.

There are improvements since Liam took over. An unbeaten streak for one. How long was Nigel’s best unbeaten run compared to Liams? Then factor in that one bloke had years in charge and the other has had months. Then factor in the number of transfer windows. If we’d have won on Saturday we’d have finished above Coventry which would have been a huge achievement when you look at the season they’ve had.

Nige got the best out of a lot of mediocre players but he couldn’t get as much out of Mehmetti as Liam has.

And as for Tins are we really going to let a few mistakes on social media cover over everything he has achieved with the club as a player and in his academy roles. Look at some of the players he’s brought through. Scott, Semenyo and others featuring regularly in the first team. He may need more guidance than he’s getting and needs to learn from his mistakes, I acknowledge that, but I’m not sure cutting ties with him completely would do us any favours when it comes to player development. 

Theres a lot of old ground here but just to confirm:

- You may think we’ve progressed under Liam, but under the “bottom line” metric of ppg under him vs prior to his appointment we haven’t. Yes he’s had an unbeaten run but he’s also had awful runs and in the round, he currently can’t be seen as an improvement. And as the base he was coming in from was stronger than Pearson inherited then it’s very hard to argue he’s been a success in any way shape or form at the moment. That may change, but getting more out of Mehmeti, when he’s still not great, isn’t a CV headline at all

- As for Tinnion. We see a lot of this conflating - and to be clear what he did for this club as a player (whatever your opinion of him) means nothing in his current role. What he did in the academy (noting there is a school of thought that it was Probert, and it undeniably relied on a willing manager) means nothing in his current role. Nada. Zilch. Zip. If you worked in Tesco and were great at shelf stacking and decent at training it doesn’t mean you can then run the company!

Hes one of the top three men in the football hierarchy. He’s 56 years old. He shouldn’t need “guidance” - he’s the definition of an old head. Bluntly enough if he can’t do the job he’s in now then he’s never going to be able to, and shitting the bed publicly all the time isn’t a look you want from a man making decisions in a multi million pound company.

Too many people conflate their view of Tinnion as a club legend because they liked his left foot and remember Anfield with the competencies needed in his current role. And the sooner that stops the sooner we can progress.

[Jobi]

9 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

A lot of our fans have fallen into that trap of thinking we've improved this season. 

I don't get it. Surely the aim every season is to win the league? Win every game etc? And then when that's not likely you then adjust your targets. 

I don't like this whole attitude of being happy of finishing mid table once again. It's not high performance. It's setting a culture that some sort of failure is OK. 

The organisation did set targets. They were missed. Now they and their apologists are trying to frame this season as a positive to try and save face. 

We have improved - go back to Preston first game of the season - lots of hope, Pearson has finally got a half decent side, new signings etc…..we were terrible and somehow managed to scrape a point. Might not have materialised in terms of points gained or PPG or whatever metrics there are, but personally I enjoy watching the football more now and can see a better coached side. Still don’t understand why he plays Sykes at LWB though

[Jobi]

On 06/05/2024 at 23:20, Shauntaylor85 said:

I was at a wedding this weekend and an Ipswich season ticket holder was there, I explained our view on Ashton, their response was ‘we love him! He’s done an incredible job and really engages with the fans, havent been this together since Burley days’. As I said we couldn’t wait to appoint the most marmite ex city midfielder of all time as manager, that was the reason Ashton seemingly failed in my view and does anyone here seriously think he would have chosen Johnson?

I guess ashtons methods are more suited to ownerships who want to spend spend spend.

[noize]

"Always Believe" - Always Believe what Brian?, that you are a total incompetant moron?, That we will continue to be the mediocre vanilla club of the championship for the next 10 years?. That the people at the top of the club are clueless and will never bring success?.... If that's what you mean then don't worry brother, i "believe" whole heartedly.

[Sir Geoff]

16 minutes ago, Jobi said:

We have improved - go back to Preston first game of the season - lots of hope, Pearson has finally got a half decent side, new signings etc…..we were terrible and somehow managed to scrape a point. Might not have materialised in terms of points gained or PPG or whatever metrics there are, but personally I enjoy watching the football more now and can see a better coached side. Still don’t understand why he plays Sykes at LWB though

How was Preston at home any different to the recent home game against Huddersfield ? Just interested to know what made you enjoy Huddersfield more than Preston.

[Bob Turnip]

13 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

most of us expected us to progress from being a mid table table

Just out of interest, being that this statement is doing the heavy lifting in your argument, how do you actually know this?

[Jobi]

12 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

How was Preston at home any different to the recent home game against Huddersfield ? Just interested to know what made you enjoy Huddersfield more than Preston.

To be fair it’s a valid point - they were both equally dire. I do think there is a degree of rose tinted specs about Pearson. But yea, little difference tbf.

[Puckle_red]

53 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

Theres a lot of old ground here but just to confirm:

- You may think we’ve progressed under Liam, but under the “bottom line” metric of ppg under him vs prior to his appointment we haven’t. Yes he’s had an unbeaten run but he’s also had awful runs and in the round, he currently can’t be seen as an improvement. And as the base he was coming in from was stronger than Pearson inherited then it’s very hard to argue he’s been a success in any way shape or form at the moment. That may change, but getting more out of Mehmeti, when he’s still not great, isn’t a CV headline at all

- As for Tinnion. We see a lot of this conflating - and to be clear what he did for this club as a player (whatever your opinion of him) means nothing in his current role. What he did in the academy (noting there is a school of thought that it was Probert, and it undeniably relied on a willing manager) means nothing in his current role. Nada. Zilch. Zip. If you worked in Tesco and were great at shelf stacking and decent at training it doesn’t mean you can then run the company!

Hes one of the top three men in the football hierarchy. He’s 56 years old. He shouldn’t need “guidance” - he’s the definition of an old head. Bluntly enough if he can’t do the job he’s in now then he’s never going to be able to, and shitting the bed publicly all the time isn’t a look you want from a man making decisions in a multi million pound company.

Too many people conflate their view of Tinnion as a club legend because they liked his left foot and remember Anfield with the competencies needed in his current role. And the sooner that stops the sooner we can progress.

Shit me, that's a good post.

[W-S-M Seagull]

1 hour ago, Jobi said:

We have improved - go back to Preston first game of the season - lots of hope, Pearson has finally got a half decent side, new signings etc…..we were terrible and somehow managed to scrape a point. Might not have materialised in terms of points gained or PPG or whatever metrics there are, but personally I enjoy watching the football more now and can see a better coached side. Still don’t understand why he plays Sykes at LWB though

Where have we improved? 

What are your thoughts on the 2 nil loss away to Preston? 

What is different about the football now which makes you enjoy it more? 

[Son of Fred]

1 hour ago, Sir Geoff said:

How was Preston at home any different to the recent home game against Huddersfield ? Just interested to know what made you enjoy Huddersfield more than Preston.

The referee??

[W-S-M Seagull]

57 minutes ago, Bob Turnip said:

Just out of interest, being that this statement is doing the heavy lifting in your argument, how do you actually know this?

After our fans were incredibly patient during 'the reset' the feeling I got from the fanbase was that the general consenus was to progress this season. 

What I'm not sure of is why certain people wanted that progression under Pearson but that their expectations suddenly shifted under Manning. 

 

[Jobi]

7 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Where have we improved? 

What are your thoughts on the 2 nil loss away to Preston? 

What is different about the football now which makes you enjoy it more? 

This is my view 

- I think we pass the ball better

- I think we look more solid at the back

- I think Manning is getting the best out of Roberts, Mehmeti, Williams who have struggled previously 

- I think the partnership between Twine and Conway looks promising and he is looking more threatening

- I think we press better as a side

- I think we are clearly playing in a way that is more difficult for the top sides

There are always going to be bad performances, and it’s up to Manning to find a way that enables us to break down those sides who sit in, I’m assuming he sees Twine as a key part of that - saying that I do think Manning over complicates things at times, I really like the 3 at the back so why does he sometimes revert to a 4? Why does he play Sykes at LWB? Why at the start did he seem so hesitant to change things when they clearly weren’t working? 
 

For what it’s worth I think Pearson did 2 things very well here - the first one was making our younger players better, the likes of Scott, Conway Tanner etc all got game time and improved massively. I also think he made some big calls that worked, like O’Leary over Bentley, don’t think he gets enough credit for those big calls which worked well. Saying that I was disappointed with his inability to get the best out of new signings, like Mehmeti and Roberts, and tactically there seemed an emphasis on attitude and culture (which is great) rather than innovation which seems to be the modern way (just my view). At the end of the day we all see things in different ways, I am hopeful we will kick on next season and if we don’t, then Manning will be in trouble - excited to see our recruitment over the summer.

[mozo]

14 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

After our fans were incredibly patient during 'the reset' the feeling I got from the fanbase was that the general consenus was to progress this season. 

What I'm not sure of is why certain people wanted that progression under Pearson but that their expectations suddenly shifted under Manning. 

 

We did expect to progress. Then we sold our talisman. A Premier League standard player left without bringing any Premier League standard players in. Then the outlook changes. 

[Selred]

2 hours ago, real_bristol said:

If we’d have won on Saturday we’d have finished above Coventry which would have been a huge achievement when you look at the season they’ve had.

Under Nige we beat Coventry. Under Manning we didn't.

 

[KegCity]

For me, it's incredibly frustrating that we didn't get 3 points against Stoke and finish inside the top 10. It would've been a clearer improvement on last season and a good marker moving into next season and having a proper go at the playoffs.

We've improved on last season IMO, albeit we've improved once Manning moved away from his footballing ideas and started playing the "original" style of football the squad was set up for. If he hadn't moved away from it to begin with who knows where we would've finished.

With a summer transfer window and a pre-season to work with the squad, is it likely that Manning will continue to improve on what we already have, or try to shape the squad to play his style of football?

[W-S-M Seagull]

33 minutes ago, Jobi said:

This is my view 

- I think we pass the ball better

- I think we look more solid at the back

- I think Manning is getting the best out of Roberts, Mehmeti, Williams who have struggled previously 

- I think the partnership between Twine and Conway looks promising and he is looking more threatening

- I think we press better as a side

- I think we are clearly playing in a way that is more difficult for the top sides

There are always going to be bad performances, and it’s up to Manning to find a way that enables us to break down those sides who sit in, I’m assuming he sees Twine as a key part of that - saying that I do think Manning over complicates things at times, I really like the 3 at the back so why does he sometimes revert to a 4? Why does he play Sykes at LWB? Why at the start did he seem so hesitant to change things when they clearly weren’t working? 
 

For what it’s worth I think Pearson did 2 things very well here - the first one was making our younger players better, the likes of Scott, Conway Tanner etc all got game time and improved massively. I also think he made some big calls that worked, like O’Leary over Bentley, don’t think he gets enough credit for those big calls which worked well. Saying that I was disappointed with his inability to get the best out of new signings, like Mehmeti and Roberts, and tactically there seemed an emphasis on attitude and culture (which is great) rather than innovation which seems to be the modern way (just my view). At the end of the day we all see things in different ways, I am hopeful we will kick on next season and if we don’t, then Manning will be in trouble - excited to see our recruitment over the summer.

I'm not sure this is true, I'll defer to @Davefevs on the passing. I'm not impressed with the passing between the back 4. 

We've conceded 5 less goals than last season. Improvement yes but you have to consider it in context. Last season we didn't have Dickie and for large parts we had a make shift defence. So the question I have is do we look more solid because we've been coached better like you are presumably implying, or do we look more solid because we have purchased a solid player and have had far greater availability in defence? 

Can you say with absolute certainty that those players wouldn't have improved under Pearson or any other manager? Williams for example, Pearson and his medical team worked extremely hard to get him to a fitness level where he can be a consistent Championship player. Comparing Williams from last season to this season would be unfair because of those fitness issues. 

Similar for Roberts and Mehmeti. Can you say with absolute certainty that they'd not have improved under Pearson or another manager? Has Manning got the best out of them or have they just followed the expected trend in their development? Let's also not act like these players are world beaters, because they are not. We are in danger here of thinking everything is rosey because we went on a good run. How did the perform during the bad runs? 

OK thats good that Conway is looking more threatening, what about earlier on in Mannings time here? Again this is a question for Dave but from what I've seen in my own eyes it doesn't appear that xG has improved. 

I don't think our pressing is anywhere near as good as it was previously and for a large part Manning moved away from pressing so I'm unsure why you have come to that conclusion.

Whilst the Southampton and Leicester games were great results let's not forget that we could have played Leeds all night and still not scored for example. 

Edited May 8 by W-S-M Seagull

[MarcusX]

11 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

A lot of our fans have fallen into that trap of thinking we've improved this season. 

I don't get it. Surely the aim every season is to win the league? Win every game etc? And then when that's not likely you then adjust your targets. 

I don't like this whole attitude of being happy of finishing mid table once again. It's not high performance. It's setting a culture that some sort of failure is OK. 

The organisation did set targets. They were missed. Now they and their apologists are trying to frame this season as a positive to try and save face. 

This is flawed though.

It's all well and good saying you aim for the best possible achievement, eg win your league - but if upon promotion last season, Rob Edwards had gone in day one of pre-seaason and said we're aiming to win the Premier League he'd be laughed out the building.

It's one thing to not accept failure and aim high, but that target has to be achievable or you lose people straight away.

I think that's where some managers come up with this 10 game block, because every individual outcome can sometimes be out of your control - but over a period you should have some sense of control of form.

The organisation set poor targets (at least publically to fans). Fluffy, undefined targets such as "best possible chance of success" and "competing at the right end of the table". 

Everywhere I've played we've had a target points total, and back on the point about total points being progress but being further from play offs - both measures can be correct. I don't see this year as progress really, especially as it's been highly disrupted, it's about where I expected us to be had we not sacked Pearson (we'll never know if he would have achieved that or not) so to pull the trigger and end up in the same place, whilst fracturing the fanbase's trust and support and as many diabollically poor performances as there have been good - I'm not sure that's "progress" IMO.

All that said, clean(ish) slate for Manning now. Next season is all about him and that's where he personally will be judged by most, as many of us can accept that it isn't HIS fault all this has happened.

The aim for next season has to be minimum 70 points to be in and around the play off chatter, and generally beating the bottom 6 clubs and at least competing with the top 6.

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, real_bristol said:

How long was Nigel’s best unbeaten run compared to Liams?

12 games vs 7 games if you want facts!

Ended by Manchester City!!!

(9 games vs 7 games if you only want league games)