Tinnion is back!

[Steve Watts]

5 hours ago, Jobi said:

We have improved - go back to Preston first game of the season - lots of hope, Pearson has finally got a half decent side, new signings etc…..we were terrible and somehow managed to scrape a point. Might not have materialised in terms of points gained or PPG or whatever metrics there are, but personally I enjoy watching the football more now and can see a better coached side. Still don’t understand why he plays Sykes at LWB though

Fair play to you for finding any enjoyment out of Manning-ball.  Sadly I find his brand of football to be boring as dogshit.  

[ExiledAjax]

1 hour ago, Capman said:

Yet very little of that rigour seems to have been applied to the football club.
We have vague targets which no one seems to measure and even fewer people seem to understand.

Publicly.

I have a suspicion that privately we have hard targets, but they aren't made public... except when Tinnion gets on the mic and gives us an inkling.

Players have hard targets for fitness, for actions on pitch, for distance run etc. They are tracked during training, matches, and I believe have to log food and exercise at home as well. Not to mention the benchmarking they do at the start and end of each season.

I can't quite bring myself to believe that an organisation - even one run like BCFC is - can have such measurement and metrics in one area, and not in another.

Part of the reason I mention 72 points as a sensible target for a team like is is because it roughly marries with what Tinnion said on SOTC a while back. Asked "where do we need to be" he said "about 10 points better off". At the time, with the points we were on and games played, it meant he wanted us to be on about 1.54ppg, which over 46 games gives a 71 point total.

This as well supports his statement of "progress", because we've finished closer to that low 70s target.

Just a theory, could be wrong and it could all be vague behind the scenes as well as publicly, but I suspect not.

 

[W-S-M Seagull]

17 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Publicly.

I have a suspicion that privately we have hard targets, but they aren't made public... except when Tinnion gets on the mic and gives us an inkling.

Players have hard targets for fitness, for actions on pitch, for distance run etc. They are tracked during training, matches, and I believe have to log food and exercise at home as well. Not to mention the benchmarking they do at the start and end of each season.

I can't quite bring myself to believe that an organisation - even one run like BCFC is - can have such measurement and metrics in one area, and not in another.

Part of the reason I mention 72 points as a sensible target for a team like is is because it roughly marries with what Tinnion said on SOTC a while back. Asked "where do we need to be" he said "about 10 points better off". At the time, with the points we were on and games played, it meant he wanted us to be on about 1.54ppg, which over 46 games gives a 71 point total.

This as well supports his statement of "progress", because we've finished closer to that low 70s target.

Just a theory, could be wrong and it could all be vague behind the scenes as well as publicly, but I suspect not.

 

Just think, had we of won the winnable games after Southampton - QPR, Sheffield Wed, Cardiff, Huddersfield and Stoke then we'd be +14 and secured ourselves a play off spot with 76 points and finishing 5th. It was in our own hands after all. 

To have dropped all those points against those teams is a huge failure. 

[Sir Geoff]

7 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Just think, had we of won the winnable games after Southampton - QPR, Sheffield Wed, Cardiff, Huddersfield and Stoke then we'd be +14 and secured ourselves a play off spot with 76 points and finishing 5th. It was in our own hands after all. 

To have dropped all those points against those teams is a huge failure. 

TBF realistically we would be unlikely to win all of those but should have been looking at ppg of 2 points from those fixtures.

[Sir Geoff]

35 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Publicly.

I have a suspicion that privately we have hard targets, but they aren't made public... except when Tinnion gets on the mic and gives us an inkling.

Players have hard targets for fitness, for actions on pitch, for distance run etc. They are tracked during training, matches, and I believe have to log food and exercise at home as well. Not to mention the benchmarking they do at the start and end of each season.

I can't quite bring myself to believe that an organisation - even one run like BCFC is - can have such measurement and metrics in one area, and not in another.

Part of the reason I mention 72 points as a sensible target for a team like is is because it roughly marries with what Tinnion said on SOTC a while back. Asked "where do we need to be" he said "about 10 points better off". At the time, with the points we were on and games played, it meant he wanted us to be on about 1.54ppg, which over 46 games gives a 71 point total.

This as well supports his statement of "progress", because we've finished closer to that low 70s target.

Just a theory, could be wrong and it could all be vague behind the scenes as well as publicly, but I suspect not.

 

Except Gavin Marshall on FBC stated, "we finished the season roughly where we expected to." So, was their target promotion or mid table ? 

[ExiledAjax]

19 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Just think, had we of won the winnable games after Southampton - QPR, Sheffield Wed, Cardiff, Huddersfield and Stoke then we'd be +14 and secured ourselves a play off spot with 76 points and finishing 5th. It was in our own hands after all. 

To have dropped all those points against those teams is a huge failure. 

Just think, had we of lost the losable games - Leicester, Southampton, Coventry, Boro (away) and Hull then we'd be -15 and secured ourselves a relegation spot with 47 points and finishing 22nd. It was in our own hands after all. 

To have won all those points against those teams is a huge success. 

4 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

Except Gavin Marshall on FBC stated, "we finished the season roughly where we expected to." So, was their target promotion or mid table ? 

Expectations and targets can (should) be different things. Plus, as I said, my suspicion is that they have private targets and public spin.

Edited May 8 by ExiledAjax

[W-S-M Seagull]

7 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Just think, had we of lost the losable games - Leicester, Southampton, Coventry, Boro (away) and Hull then we'd be -15 and secured ourselves a relegation spot with 47 points and finishing 22nd. It was in our own hands after all. 

To have won all those points against those teams is a huge success. 

Expectations and targets can (should) be different things. Plus, as I said, my suspicion is that they have private targets and public spin.

You're all over the place mate. 

One minute you went on a bizarre rant saying play offs were not in our own hands as every other club could win all their remaining games. 

Now in this thread you've repeatedly said 70 odd points would secure play offs most seasons and you've used that to frame this season as a success.

However that's a complete contradiction to what you said post Southampton where you trolled and mocked me for me saying "it's in our own hands" when I was simply saying it was in our own hands to achieve the points total which you now say in this thread would get play offs in most seasons. Make your mind up mate. 

You're constantly changing the parameters to suit your own narrative.

[ExiledAjax]

19 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

You're all over the place mate. 

One minute you went on a bizarre rant saying play offs were not in our own hands as every other club could win all their remaining games. 

Now in this thread you've repeatedly said 70 odd points would secure play offs most seasons and you've used that to frame this season as a success.

However that's a complete contradiction to what you said post Southampton where you trolled and mocked me for me saying "it's in our own hands" when I was simply saying it was in our own hands to achieve the points total which you now say in this thread would get play offs in most seasons. Make your mind up mate. 

You're constantly changing the parameters to suit your own narrative.

They're different conversations, why conflate them?

In this thread I thought we were talking about an objective determination of whether or not this season's points total/position shows progression versus last season's. Yes it does, because it gets us closer to a points total that often gets you top 6. 72 is a theoretical example of such a points total in a theoretical season. 

That doesn't mean it's a "success" by the way. I don't think it's been a successful season, but progress and success are not mutually exclusive sisters.

The discussion around it being "in our hands" or not was about the likelihood of real world outcomes. Not theory. Not benchmarks. Not measuring "progress". It was about what was likely to happen from that point onwards. You posited an entirely unlikely run of results in an effort to show that whether or not we got top 6 was entirely down to us. It wasn't, because what you asked for, with this real world squad, was very unlikely to happen, because other teams were going to continue accumulating points as we lost them. Which is what happened.

I honestly can't believe we've had such a long chat about whether or not getting more points than last season is a good thing!

If you feel like I've trolled or mocked you at any point then I apologise. I don't try to do that at all.

Edited May 8 by ExiledAjax

[Sleepy1968]

6 hours ago, noize said:

"Always Believe" - Always Believe what Brian?, that you are a total incompetant moron?, That we will continue to be the mediocre vanilla club of the championship for the next 10 years?. That the people at the top of the club are clueless and will never bring success?.... If that's what you mean then don't worry brother, i "believe" whole heartedly.

It's trite crap, peddled by people who don't really have any clear aims, and even less of an understanding of what strategy might achieve them.

I don't ever buy Nike, but FFS just do it.

[fisherrich]

1 hour ago, ExiledAjax said:

Publicly.

I have a suspicion that privately we have hard targets, but they aren't made public... except when Tinnion gets on the mic and gives us an inkling.

Players have hard targets for fitness, for actions on pitch, for distance run etc. They are tracked during training, matches, and I believe have to log food and exercise at home as well. Not to mention the benchmarking they do at the start and end of each season.

I can't quite bring myself to believe that an organisation - even one run like BCFC is - can have such measurement and metrics in one area, and not in another.

Part of the reason I mention 72 points as a sensible target for a team like is is because it roughly marries with what Tinnion said on SOTC a while back. Asked "where do we need to be" he said "about 10 points better off". At the time, with the points we were on and games played, it meant he wanted us to be on about 1.54ppg, which over 46 games gives a 71 point total.

This as well supports his statement of "progress", because we've finished closer to that low 70s target.

Just a theory, could be wrong and it could all be vague behind the scenes as well as publicly, but I suspect not.

 

Uhhh interesting - Not too long ago certain “players” would “pile” in to B+M on Winterstoke road for there “lunch” pre training. Suppose it could have been breakfast FFS. I saw them there on several occasions. Admittedly this was back in Johnson days before Nige P put a stop to it. Quite frankly the club is a basket case IMO.

Edited May 8 by fisherrich

[mozo]

3 hours ago, Capman said:

This whole thread exemplifies the thing that really mystifies me about BCFC and the Lansdown stewardship of it. That is the seemingly total lack of suitable well documented and articulated targets. The financial services industry is stuffed full of them. No self respecting fund manager does not know their target to the nearest pound. Every element is targeted. Costs, returns. It is not possible to move without someone putting a number to it to measure performance. Yet very little of that rigour seems to have been applied to the football club.
We have vague targets which no one seems to measure and even fewer people seem to understand. We have managers fired, but we, and they, don’t know why and a CEO who seemed to give up and leave because he could not work out what his job was. 
The whole club appears to have a level of professionalism which would not be acceptable in a local charity. Then they wonder why other similar sized clubs deliver outcomes of which we can only dream. 
It’s not complicated Steve, they do it because they have a plan. For them the objective is not about not upsetting Jon, it’s 100 percent about getting into the premier league. Until BCFC understands that, it will not happen. Change comes from the top. 
 

It's annoying that because of the board talking bollocks, we're all here bickering about the head coach.

Ultimately, Nige wasn't sacked because of performance or expectations. The problem was the working relationship and the perception of Nige as not what the club wanted long term. So we lose a few games and the board jump at the opportunity. 

Us all quibbling about marginal differences in pppg, xG and points from playoffs is really quite ridiculous.

Despite what the board said, the change wasn't about any of that.

We're fools for being dragged into their Narnia, when actually most City fans agree that the sacking was harsh, that it's not Manning's fault, that the board talk shit, that we all want success next season, and that Manning really needs to deliver season on season improvement from hereon in.

[Capman]

1 hour ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Just think, had we of won the winnable games after Southampton - QPR, Sheffield Wed, Cardiff, Huddersfield and Stoke then we'd be +14 and secured ourselves a play off spot with 76 points and finishing 5th. It was in our own hands after all. 

To have dropped all those points against those teams is a huge failure. 

Precisely. But the question is really what we, as a club, have taken from those experiences which will help us in future years? For example what conclusions did the club take from the injury crisis earlier in the season and what that should mean for the size of the squad and the readiness of the youth structure to supply players for the first team? What did we take from our league performances around the cup run and what that should mean in terms of first team focus in years to come (personal view was we put too much emphasis on some cup games and that cost us league points). Looking back is interesting and informative but it is only useful if you actually take action to do something different. I would even look at individual mistakes by individual players and question what we might do differently. They did not mean to make mistakes so how can we help them make fewer. Had they played too many games, were the team instructions not clear. It is not about individual blame but about corporate learning. 

1 hour ago, ExiledAjax said:

 

Expectations and targets can (should) be different things. Plus, as I said, my suspicion is that they have private targets and public spin.

Problem with public spin is that it feeds in to the consciousness of the organisation. What people say in public matters because it sets a tone. The players, their families, staff will all read the press. If they are subjected to meaningless nonsense like targeting ‘upper end’ they will draw conclusions. You would never hear Pep, Klopp or even people like Clive Woodward talk in those ways because they know these things matter. 

[RedM]

1 hour ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Just think, had we of won the winnable games after Southampton - QPR, Sheffield Wed, Cardiff, Huddersfield and Stoke then we'd be +14 and secured ourselves a play off spot with 76 points and finishing 5th. It was in our own hands after all. 

To have dropped all those points against those teams is a huge failure. 

You are talking like those other teams don't want to win

[W-S-M Seagull]

40 minutes ago, RedM said:

You are talking like those other teams don't want to win

That's the problem isn't it? Teams with lesser quality wanted to win those games more than we did. 

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, mozo said:

Narnia

From the book “the lying p-Rick in the boardroom”

(that’s me trying to add some humour to calling anyone a lying *****, but it is the best I could come up with!)

Edited May 8 by Davefevs

[mozo]

13 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

From the book “the lying p-Rick in the boardroom”

(that’s me trying to add some humour to calling anyone a lying *****, but it is the best I could come up with!)

The Liar, The Snitch and the Board drone?

I'm sure someone can do better!

[mozo]

41 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

That's the problem isn't it? Teams with lesser quality wanted to win those games more than we did. 

If only that stupid head coach of ours had told the players to try hard. What a wally!

[Silvio Dante]

30 minutes ago, mozo said:

The Liar, The Snitch and the Board drone?

I'm sure someone can do better!

The Liar, the snitch and Wor Drone?

[formerly known as ivan]

Stopped following this thread, wish I hadn’t now.

Just had a great time reading about Tinnion’s stint as manager and his gun-ho 3-2-5 approach!

Tinnion’s logic was ‘the more strikers I play, the more goals we will score’. Unfortunately it didn’t quite go to plan…

[W-S-M Seagull]

57 minutes ago, mozo said:

If only that stupid head coach of ours had told the players to try hard. What a wally!

Mock it all you want but it doesn't change the fact that he couldn't motivate the players against those teams. 

Remember our performance in the derby against Cardiff? 

[noize]

When it comes down to it whats done is done, Nige has gone and Manning is here, neither of them have done anything wrong in my opinion, both kind of victims in the mess that is the BC board. I didnt want Nigel sacked but i dont want to see Manning fail, I'll get behind him. It's the level above that's the problem, the "puppet masters". It's so frustrating with a club like City with SO much potential for it never to be realised due to utter incompetence at the top. Then when one of the morons posts something like Tinnion has, it just ignites the anger, it's like he's either taking the p!ss out of the fans, or he is so stupid he just doesnt see it. "See you when we are in the prem", well we are no where near the Prem so why the hell do we have to "see you"?

[mozo]

57 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Mock it all you want but it doesn't change the fact that he couldn't motivate the players against those teams. 

Remember our performance in the derby against Cardiff? 

Name a City manager and I'll pick out some games they should have won but didn't 

Edited May 8 by mozo

[Capman]

3 hours ago, mozo said:

It's annoying that because of the board talking bollocks, we're all here bickering about the head coach.

Ultimately, Nige wasn't sacked because of performance or expectations. The problem was the working relationship and the perception of Nige as not what the club wanted long term. So we lose a few games and the board jump at the opportunity. 

Us all quibbling about marginal differences in pppg, xG and points from playoffs is really quite ridiculous.

Despite what the board said, the change wasn't about any of that.

We're fools for being dragged into their Narnia, when actually most City fans agree that the sacking was harsh, that it's not Manning's fault, that the board talk shit, that we all want success next season, and that Manning really needs to deliver season on season improvement from hereon in.

I agree with that. Problem is I don’t see Manning getting the chance to do that. If he has a good first half of the season the board will sell the good players in January, if he has a bad first half of the season, he gets fired. 
The problem is the board. I don’t see it getting better until Jon goes. He is the ultimate problem. He is not up to the job. 

[phantom]

2 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Mock it all you want but it doesn't change the fact that he couldn't motivate the players against those teams. 

Remember our performance in the derby against Cardiff? 

We could make a very long list of when this has happened for every Manager over the years

[Superjack]

13 hours ago, Silvio Dante said:

Theres a lot of old ground here but just to confirm:

- You may think we’ve progressed under Liam, but under the “bottom line” metric of ppg under him vs prior to his appointment we haven’t. Yes he’s had an unbeaten run but he’s also had awful runs and in the round, he currently can’t be seen as an improvement. And as the base he was coming in from was stronger than Pearson inherited then it’s very hard to argue he’s been a success in any way shape or form at the moment. That may change, but getting more out of Mehmeti, when he’s still not great, isn’t a CV headline at all

- As for Tinnion. We see a lot of this conflating - and to be clear what he did for this club as a player (whatever your opinion of him) means nothing in his current role. What he did in the academy (noting there is a school of thought that it was Probert, and it undeniably relied on a willing manager) means nothing in his current role. Nada. Zilch. Zip. If you worked in Tesco and were great at shelf stacking and decent at training it doesn’t mean you can then run the company!

Hes one of the top three men in the football hierarchy. He’s 56 years old. He shouldn’t need “guidance” - he’s the definition of an old head. Bluntly enough if he can’t do the job he’s in now then he’s never going to be able to, and shitting the bed publicly all the time isn’t a look you want from a man making decisions in a multi million pound company.

Too many people conflate their view of Tinnion as a club legend because they liked his left foot and remember Anfield with the competencies needed in his current role. And the sooner that stops the sooner we can progress.

[Colemanballs]

10 hours ago, mozo said:

Name a City manager and I'll pick out some games they should have won but didn't 

Of course, all teams lose occasionally to teams that they should beat. Didn't Man City lose to Wolves earlier this season?

My issue with that losing run is that it was substantially self-inflicted due to Manning's insistence on playing (and persevering with) a style to which the squad were blatantly unsuited. 

[Numero Uno]

Since when did shitting out of a tackle every week make you a club legend?

[redsquirrel]

14 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Since when did shitting out of a tackle every week make you a club legend?

does fighting off mad dogs count? 

[formerly known as ivan]

On 08/05/2024 at 07:26, Silvio Dante said:

Theres a lot of old ground here but just to confirm:

- You may think we’ve progressed under Liam, but under the “bottom line” metric of ppg under him vs prior to his appointment we haven’t. Yes he’s had an unbeaten run but he’s also had awful runs and in the round, he currently can’t be seen as an improvement. And as the base he was coming in from was stronger than Pearson inherited then it’s very hard to argue he’s been a success in any way shape or form at the moment. That may change, but getting more out of Mehmeti, when he’s still not great, isn’t a CV headline at all

- As for Tinnion. We see a lot of this conflating - and to be clear what he did for this club as a player (whatever your opinion of him) means nothing in his current role. What he did in the academy (noting there is a school of thought that it was Probert, and it undeniably relied on a willing manager) means nothing in his current role. Nada. Zilch. Zip. If you worked in Tesco and were great at shelf stacking and decent at training it doesn’t mean you can then run the company!

Hes one of the top three men in the football hierarchy. He’s 56 years old. He shouldn’t need “guidance” - he’s the definition of an old head. Bluntly enough if he can’t do the job he’s in now then he’s never going to be able to, and shitting the bed publicly all the time isn’t a look you want from a man making decisions in a multi million pound company.

Too many people conflate their view of Tinnion as a club legend because they liked his left foot and remember Anfield with the competencies needed in his current role. And the sooner that stops the sooner we can progress.

What a post… take a bow young man! 

And let’s not forget, many of Manning’s points came at the end of the season with nothing riding on games against most clubs. When there was a chance of an outside push towards the play offs, he failed miserably.

Edited May 9 by formerly known as ivan

[Silvio Dante]

12 hours ago, mozo said:

Name a City manager and I'll pick out some games they should have won but didn't 

Curtis Fleming.