Retained list

[ExiledAjax]

31 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Weimann & James probably, can’t see King being on much.

First season was injury hit, second one Pearson said he was also coaching.

My guess is he was on far less than the other two.

Fair point. Maybe the thick end of £30k p/w for the three of them then?

[RedRoss]

I was in the minority according to the poll on here recently that wanted James moved on. I really appreciate what he's done for our club. Was here exactly when needed to help set the standard during Nige's tenure. I just thought he's one of our top earners and we've already got his replacement lined up and thought it's the right time to move on with his head held high.

I keep seeing how much experience we've lost and we have. However, I don't think they are counting the likes of Knight, Vyner, Wells ect and even Bird next season. Just because most of these players are young doesn't mean they don't have plenty of experience already. I think we've recruited well in that respect. Young but experienced players.

Time will tell but recruitment is one of the things I think our club is doing better in my opinion so I trust this decision.

[Dullmoan Tone]

3 hours ago, Harry said:

I think Tinnion has said that (or similar) for about the last 10 years. 
Every year it’s “the next crop of youngsters are the best yet”. 
And yet in the last 10 years we’ve only had Vyner, O’Leary, Tommy and Bell who have come through from the younger ranks. 
I’m sure a few of those released today were on the “brilliant crop” about 3 years ago. 
 

Anyway - condensed version : don’t always believe what comes out of Tinnion’s mouth. 
 

Hmmm you are conveniently forgetting Bryan, Reid, Kelly, Woolcott and even Scott!

[Jobi]

22 minutes ago, RedRoss said:

I was in the minority according to the poll on here recently that wanted James moved on. I really appreciate what he's done for our club. Was here exactly when needed to help set the standard during Nige's tenure. I just thought he's one of our top earners and we've already got his replacement lined up and thought it's the right time to move on with his head held high.

I keep seeing how much experience we've lost and we have. However, I don't think they are counting the likes of Knight, Vyner, Wells ect and even Bird next season. Just because most of these players are young doesn't mean they don't have plenty of experience already. I think we've recruited well in that respect. Young but experienced players.

Time will tell but recruitment is one of the things I think our club is doing better in my opinion so I trust this decision.

Yep agree

[Silvio Dante]

4 minutes ago, Dullmoan Tone said:

Hmmm you are conveniently forgetting Bryan, Reid, Kelly, Woolcott and even Scott!

To be fair, @Harry said the last ten years. Reid and Bryan both came through over a decade ago. Scott wasn’t academy and JoJo Wollacott didn’t play a game for us.

Kelly you can have!

[Mr Popodopolous]

4 hours ago, Harry said:

Pops. He is very correct. 
James was the biggest earner. By a distance. 
Weimann, even though on revised terms, was still one of the top 3 earners. 
King would have been lower, agreed. 
 

You say they were signed during the austerity period. 
True. But for us, this meant going with a smaller squad thus enabling us to pay the likes of James, Weimann and Wells the bigger bucks. 
 

Surely the, thinking of James here, the pull factor of NP, King, Simpson, Rennie would be a pull factor? Thereby reducing what we may otherwise have needed to pay.

I'm open minded on it but how big an earner might we be talking? I'd quite happily bet our football wage bill is now £20-21m, £22m tops.

Edited May 11 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

6 hours ago, Redshorts said:

I heard a rumour at the last game of the season that he was chatting to Derby about playing for them next season.

James?

Midlands, could make sense on one level.

[Spike]

Seeing all the names that were under 24 that were released is quite sad, a lot of names that were talked about as future first team players and then James is a huge blow imo. 

I'm interested to see who is supposed to be the leaders on the pitch when we play these days. I miss when we had players who were proper leaders or at the very least motivators.

I still don't have high hopes for next season and based on what I've seen of Manning I still don't think a got a better manager, I'd say we've certainly got a different manager but he still hits me as a guy who thinks of football as if it's football manager. He has all the lingo, he has an idea, he's motivated but when it comes to the parts that stand out managers have he feels sterile in comparison. I also don't rate his ability to get the best out of his players, more of a man who gets rid of the parts that don't work for him and replaces them and whilst that can work for some teams we're more of a club that needs to take the quality where we can get it and mould it into a cohesive unit, I don't see Manning as that man. 

I'll see how the summer goes, who comes in, who goes out and see how Manning does next season but I have a feeling we'll be rebuilding again within the next couple of seasons because we're not in the play off chase. 

[RollsRoyce]

5 hours ago, Harry said:

Pops. He is very correct. 
James was the biggest earner. By a distance. 
Weimann, even though on revised terms, was still one of the top 3 earners. 
King would have been lower, agreed. 
 

You say they were signed during the austerity period. 
True. But for us, this meant going with a smaller squad thus enabling us to pay the likes of James, Weimann and Wells the bigger bucks. 
 

James was not the highest earner by some distance. He was at the high end of current levels and there are others who remain,  and earn the same. He was not a stand out as you suggest, you are very wrong. We have signed players after James arrived for the same money he was on. Williams not signing would release the same wage budget as James. 

King was paid less that any first team squad player and is of no great consequence in terms of external future signings budget, maybe an under 21 from the academy. 

The big wages went with Palmer, Kalas, Dasilva the original Wells deal, and Bentley (in terms of a GK)

Bird will already be covering a significant amount from James lost wage, and losing Weimann will leave space for the "forward" that they desire. TGH is not cheap either. Unless we are increasing the wage budget, and we may well do, there is not much space left for the number 10, particularly if Williams, currently at the top of our earning scale, remains at anything close to his current deal. 

[LondonBristolian]

I've got really mixed views on the James decision. I think he's been a fantastic player for us and I'm sad that he's leaving BUT I am not 100% certain it is a mistake depending on what our plans are for next season and how we rate some of the midfielders we have signed or have coming through. 

Odd though it sounds, I'll actually be more annoyed if we signed a replacement than if we didn't. If we think we've got enough squad depth then, whilst a gamble, moving James on makes sense. However, if we think we need another midfielder, I don't believe we'll get better value getting someone else in rather than renewing his contract,.

I could see a scenario where Bird settles, Williams re-signs , TGH has a good pre-season and we have 4 central midfield options playing well plus one or two of Murphy, Backwell, Benarous, Nelson etc,. forcing a breakthrough, plus players like Naismith who can cover there in a push. And then we find we didn't need to keep James at all.

On the other hand, I can see the scenario where we have injuries, players out of form and young players not breaking through and we're suddenly short in midfield and not retaining James looks an errror. I'm not convinced it is wrong but I do think it ups the pressure on Manning, our current midfielders and the likes of Bird and Murphy. 

[Davefevs]

8 hours ago, Cov 77 said:

Tbh if all the experts on here have noticed we may lack experience, just maybe for all the shit they are given on here , Manning etc may realise it as well , let’s give it a little while to see what happens before instant judgement that everybody is an idiot 

Playing catch up.

Nature of the Retained List is that it’s predominantly about losing players.  The rest of the summer is focussed predominantly on recruiting player / trading players.

So, agree, we really shouldn’t worry too much until we start seeing what else happens, initially before preseason, then as the rest of the summer progresses.

[Harry]

1 hour ago, Dullmoan Tone said:

Hmmm you are conveniently forgetting Bryan, Reid, Kelly, Woolcott and even Scott!

 

1 hour ago, Silvio Dante said:

To be fair, @Harry said the last ten years. Reid and Bryan both came through over a decade ago. Scott wasn’t academy and JoJo Wollacott didn’t play a game for us.

Kelly you can have!

Yes, as Silvio says, the context of the conversation was around the last few years. Bryan and Reid were way before the time period being referred to. 
The context is that last few years where Tinnion has said, pretty much every year “the next crop are gonna be great”. 
 

Kelly I might just about give you although his first team debut was 7 years ago now and he was already in the academy before Tinnion came back to the club. So he’s borderline in terms of the context of the point. 
 

I’m not letting you have Scott though. Again, the context of my point was regards players having played through the academy, not players who were poached/enticed after the age of 16/17. 
So Scott, Semenyo & Pring are not in this discussion. 

[Davefevs]

6 hours ago, BLRed said:

Can see us selling Tommy if he hasn’t signed by start of pre-season. Our replacement for Williams should he not re-sign should be Brannagan from Oxford. 

Very different midfielders, so not a “replacement” per se.  Whether you think Brannagan would fit the rest of our midfield is another question.  Personally I hope we look elsewhere.

6 hours ago, Harry said:

Pops. He is very correct. 
James was the biggest earner. By a distance. 
Weimann, even though on revised terms, was still one of the top 3 earners. 
King would have been lower, agreed. 
 

You say they were signed during the austerity period. 
True. But for us, this meant going with a smaller squad thus enabling us to pay the likes of James, Weimann and Wells the bigger bucks. 
 

James might’ve been a high / top earner, but not out of kilter with the rest of the squad.  We know Nige didn’t want a squad with vastly different wages.  We know the type of money RG suggested as the sweet spot!

Maybe £15-18k pw.  That’s not astrometric.

Weimann down from £20k pw to £12-15k off the back of an ACL!

King very low.

Wells renegotiated too.

(all ellegedly / guesstimates)

Undoubtedly a saving on wage bill, but no way anything like losing Kalas, Palmer wage levels!

[Harry]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Surely the, thinking of James here, the pull factor of NP, King, Simpson, Rennie would be a pull factor? Thereby reducing what we may otherwise have needed to pay.

I'm open minded on it but how big an earner might we be talking? I'd quite happily bet our football wage bill is now £20-21m, £22m tops.

Don’t be so naive Pops. 
Players didn’t come here simply because of Nige. He would have been a factor but a small one. Players have a main priority when signing for a new club - money. 
All other factors are minimal. 
Please don’t tell me you think that the conversation went something like :

Coventry : We’ll offer you £25k pw. 
MJ’s agent : Sorry, Bristol are offering £20k pw but Nige is there so Matty is willing to take £780k less over the 3 years. 
Please….. 

48 minutes ago, RollsRoyce said:

James was not the highest earner by some distance. He was at the high end of current levels and there are others who remain,  and earn the same. He was not a stand out as you suggest, you are very wrong. We have signed players after James arrived for the same money he was on. Williams not signing would release the same wage budget as James. 

King was paid less that any first team squad player and is of no great consequence in terms of external future signings budget, maybe an under 21 from the academy. 

The big wages went with Palmer, Kalas, Dasilva the original Wells deal, and Bentley (in terms of a GK)

Bird will already be covering a significant amount from James lost wage, and losing Weimann will leave space for the "forward" that they desire. TGH is not cheap either. Unless we are increasing the wage budget, and we may well do, there is not much space left for the number 10, particularly if Williams, currently at the top of our earning scale, remains at anything close to his current deal. 

James was without doubt the highest earner. His prior contract at Leicester was getting on for £40k pw. If you think he came here for anything less than £25k pw I’ve got a bridge to sell you. 

Edited May 11 by Harry

[Midred]

Not negotiating for Twine then? 

[Davefevs]

4 hours ago, RoystonFoote'snephew said:

Talking of which does anyone know the status of the players listed below. Are they still at the club or have they gone. 

Jaden Brown, Isaac Finch, Jack Griffin, Jack Hooper, Brandon Oputeri, Fibert Owusu-Antwi, Isaac Richards, Sam West and Tom White. 

Think these are all / mostly on scholar deals, so not “proper” pro deals.  Maybe one or two have moved on, I don’t know, but the ones in bold were only taken on last season.

4 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

This is what it is all about. 

It's all well and good buying players like Bird etc. Our recruitment has been pretty good. 

But you need the experienced players to tie it all together. 

I think the problem is that we recruit based on stats. Maybe Bird does have the potential to be a better player than James for example. But this club simply does not understand the importance of having experience in the squad. 

With the way our recruitment strategy is I can't see us buying in experience. 

This club has a real problem with employing experienced people for whatever reason. 

The amount of experience that has left the building over less than a year is staggering and extremely concerning and gives me huge worries for the future. 

We need to move away from thinking experience = age.

Knight 150 Champ appearances, Bird 100.  Knight a leader.

etc, etc.

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, RedRoss said:

Young but experienced players.

As above 

[petehinton]

1 minute ago, Midred said:

Not negotiating for Twine then? 

“Hello, we’d like to sign R Twiney on a perm. He loves it here. £2m. “

”Hi…uh…Brian wasn’t it? We told you in January we wanted minimum £4m. He’s actually of more importance to us now, so it’s still £4m minimum.”

”Loud and klear. Please take this email as a formal bid of £2m.”

”Hi there, thanks for this. Did you read our previous email? It stated £4m as a starting point. He has 2 years on his deal and isn’t a big earner, so we have no need to sell.”

”…..£2m?”

[Davefevs]

13 minutes ago, Harry said:

 

Yes, as Silvio says, the context of the conversation was around the last few years. Bryan and Reid were way before the time period being referred to. 
The context is that last few years where Tinnion has said, pretty much every year “the next crop are gonna be great”. 
 

Kelly I might just about give you although his first team debut was 7 years ago now and he was already in the academy before Tinnion came back to the club. So he’s borderline in terms of the context of the point. 
 

I’m not letting you have Scott though. Again, the context of my point was regards players having played through the academy, not players who were poached/enticed after the age of 16/17. 
So Scott, Semenyo & Pring are not in this discussion. 

He’s basically far too bullish.

I like his enthusiasm.

But I feel sometimes it’s like the focus is the kids.

[redsquirrel]

5 minutes ago, petehinton said:

“Hello, we’d like to sign R Twiney on a perm. He loves it here. £2m. “

”Hi…uh…Brian wasn’t it? We told you in January we wanted minimum £4m. He’s actually of more importance to us now, so it’s still £4m minimum.”

”Loud and klear. Please take this email as a formal bid of £2m.”

”Hi there, thanks for this. Did you read our previous email? It stated £4m as a starting point. He has 2 years on his deal and isn’t a big earner, so we have no need to sell.”

”…..£2m?”

2 minnions

[Henry]

4 hours ago, phantom said:

Just because you haven't heard it doesn't mean others haven't... 

It's amazing how yet another thread turns into a pro Pearson comment.... The obsession is off the scale 

You don't have a nickname of Baby reindeer do you? 

Jeez, if you’re gonna try to insult someone and be the forum police, at least get the comparison right! 
 

I think the nickname you’re looking for is Martha 

[petehinton]

10 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

He’s basically far too bullish.

I like his enthusiasm.

But I feel sometimes it’s like the focus is the kids.

It’s cause he needs something to bang the drum over, as he can’t really harp on about anything else, and the academy is his real actual passion isn’t it. 
 

Weve spoken about this before, but he’s putting far, far too much pressure & expectation on the next batch coming through with his comments imo. Especially now the first team playing style will be totally different to previous structure. 

[eardun]

9 hours ago, TomThumb84 said:

Zico Hartley for me.

100%.

James was top 3 but Id go:

Hartley

Elliott

James

Gerry Gow number 1 for me. 

[JP Hampton]

6 hours ago, Harry said:

I think Tinnion has said that (or similar) for about the last 10 years. 
Every year it’s “the next crop of youngsters are the best yet”. 
And yet in the last 10 years we’ve only had Vyner, O’Leary, Tommy and Bell who have come through from the younger ranks. 
I’m sure a few of those released today were on the “brilliant crop” about 3 years ago. 
 

Anyway - condensed version : don’t always believe what comes out of Tinnion’s mouth. 
 

We literally sat in our car listening to RB, just before entering AG on a Saturday afternoon and heard BT say just what you’re saying Harry. 
Almost a “ooh you wait and see what we’ve got lined up next from the Academy”!

 So where are they?

[REDOXO]

2 hours ago, Dullmoan Tone said:

Hmmm you are conveniently forgetting Bryan, Reid, Kelly, Woolcott and even Scott!

People and players develop at different rates and at different times. Wes Burns could well be plying his trade in the Premier League soon!

 

[frenchred]

6 hours ago, Jobi said:

Wade Elliott right up there for me - shorter time. 

Not shorter than the over rated Hartley!

[frenchred]

49 minutes ago, Midred said:

Not negotiating for Twine then? 

There's no negotiating with twine, why would we he's nit our player and Burnley only knew today what div they will be in next season!

[frenchred]

7 hours ago, slartibartfast said:

Were you missing that season ?

I was there the entire season, please explain how he has attained god like status for us because I just don't see it

He was a fading (if not faded) star when he arrived and did very little for us to attain any reputation

[Harry]

Just now, frenchred said:

I was there the entire season, please explain how he has attained god like status for us because I just don't see it

He was a fading (if not faded) star when he arrived and did very little for us to attain any reputation

Yep. He had about 8 good games. 
As I said earlier, no mention of Pack, who had about 157 good games and another 100 incredibly consistent ones. 
 

[Silvio Dante]

2 minutes ago, JP Hampton said:

We literally sat in our car listening to RB, just before entering AG on a Saturday afternoon and heard BT say just what you’re saying Harry. 
Almost a “ooh you wait and see what we’ve got lined up next from the Academy”!

 So where are they?

They’re not here - and certainly not in volume.

Statistically, very few players make it through from an academy. It’s a stone cold fact you need a squad of 17/18 at each age group (minimum) you play 11 a side. Nobody (with the possible exception of Tinnion) is fool enough to think that all 18 are good enough. Probably 15 are there to make numbers up for the 2-3 who may come through.

(That isn’t a criticism of our academy - it’s just realism)

So, at best - and with no criticism of the 10 who’ve just been given deals - they will expect a couple to come through. That couple may change as the players evolve, but statistically it won’t change. And those couple rely on continued trajectory development, avoiding injury and a willing manager to trust/blood youth (see my other posts!)

It’s bonkers to suggest at any point, as Tinnion does, that there is a “generation” coming through. The class of 92 are remembered as they were an exception. The rule, though, is if everything is in your favour, you get 2-3 a year. But the way Tinnion talks we have a large number of championship ready players champing at the bit.

If that’s true, then why aren’t they playing or in the squad? Because it isn’t. Plain and simple.