Prem teams voting on VAR

[chinapig]

43 minutes ago, phantom said:

It's proven that refs are getting more decisions correct

The average VAR is a very short space of time

The ironic thing, the games Wolves are moaning about none of the onfield decisions were changed so it would have made no difference

Clubs aren't going to vote to get rid of it, just Wolves stirring up for the sake of it

Quite. Of course people remember the errors and ignore all the correct decisions so the debate generates more heat than light. But the proportion of correct decisions has increased from 87% to 94%.

One manager (possibly Nuno but I can't be sure) said he had to get his decisions 100% right and so should officials. It's good to know there is a manager who has achieved perfection and it's not even Pep!

[exAtyeoMax]

57 minutes ago, sephjnr said:

That's the point - they want people to see that it looks like they're being usurped and made to look stupid, and they don't want to improve what 'sacrosanct' control they believe they have. Almost every other sport that has reviews is operating at a smoother, less disruptive rate than VAR is taking and this is deliberate. And the horde on this thread that just want to get rid of it and just want ACTION! EXCITEMENT! SPOTINAIETY! blah will be the first to whine when it's us on the wrong end of the Keith Stroud gang yet-a-friggin-gain.

We really cannot have it both ways because of the EGOS, not the technology. It's the ******* egos.

So? I'd rather that then the nonsense of VAR. What's wrong with a whinge about refereeing/lino decisions? That's how it's always been…

What's wrong with wanting action, excitement and spontaneity? Isn't that what makes footie great? Why would anyone want that eliminated?

Edited May 16 by exAtyeoMax

[BigTone]

13 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Quite. Of course people remember the errors and ignore all the correct decisions so the debate generates more heat than light. But the proportion of correct decisions has increased from 87% to 94%.

One manager (possibly Nuno but I can't be sure) said he had to get his decisions 100% right and so should officials. It's good to know there is a manager who has achieved perfection and it's not even Pep!

Football needs to be careful it doesn't follow the same route as Rugby which has been ruined by video decisions to the point I can't watch it anymore. 

[transfer reader]

18 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Quite. Of course people remember the errors and ignore all the correct decisions so the debate generates more heat than light. But the proportion of correct decisions has increased from 87% to 94%.

One manager (possibly Nuno but I can't be sure) said he had to get his decisions 100% right and so should officials. It's good to know there is a manager who has achieved perfection and it's not even Pep!

Was he claiming he achieved perfection, or saying that's the standard he has to reach/is judged against?

Saying "I have to get decisions 100% right" and "I get 100% of my decisions right" are very different things.

[chinapig]

6 minutes ago, transfer reader said:

Was he claiming he achieved perfection, or saying that's the standard he has to reach/is judged against?

Saying "I have to get decisions 100% right" and "I get 100% of my decisions right" are very different things.

Fair point but does anybody really expect a manager to get 100% of decisions right? If not, why would we expect officials to?

[chinapig]

20 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

So? I'd rather that then the nonsense of VAR. What's wrong with a whinge about refereeing/lino decisions? That's how it's always been…

What's wrong with wanting action, excitement and spontaneity? Isn't that what makes footie great? Why would anyone want that eliminated?

Nothing wrong with a whinge. I've been known to whinge occasionally myself!

But I do not abuse officials let alone threaten them or, even worse, their families. That is what they face these days and getting rid of VAR won't change that.

While everybody gets heated about VAR, the real crisis in refereeing at all levels gets little attention. The behaviour of top level players, managers and occasionally owners plays a part in that but I don't see the PL doing anything about that.

[Ecko]

It baffles me how fans who actually go to stadiums are in favour of VAR. It is a terrible concept, implemented by amateurs and it is killing the joy of the game. The sooner it is completely scrapped (not amendment's), the better. 

[Out of his pie crust]

Get rid. Simples

[sephjnr]

1 hour ago, exAtyeoMax said:

What's wrong with wanting action, excitement and spontaneity? Isn't that what makes footie great? Why would anyone want that eliminated?

I don't. I want the refereeing to get better and the organisation is refusing to do that. Getting rid gets them off the hook, and keeping decisions down to 10 seconds or 60 at the most is an improvement on the shower of shit that it is now - down to the implemenation, not the concept.

Without tech to help them they're imposing a ceiling as to how good they can be, and at the same time they're demanding people give them more respect for its own sake - these aren't compatible concepts.

[Harry]

It won’t happen. 
Once something like this is in place it’s almost impossible for them to remove it again. 
I hate VAR. But if they remove it now they’ll look stupid and backward. Technology is always progressing and if football turned back now they’d be laughed at. 
Wont happen. 
 

So, I have no doubt that it is here to stay. And therefore it needs to be changed. It won’t be scrapped so it needs to improve. 

Immediate improvements I’d make :

1) The offside law. 
Var attempts to find the shirt sleeve or the last active body part of the defender and it’s just a load of nonsense. Change the offside law to ‘daylight’. 
This way, it’s only offside if there is a clear gap beaten any part of the bodies. Means no attempts to locate the shirt sleeve (where does that even start on a long sleeve shirt!!) 

2) With offsides, the linesman has to flag for it as soon as the ball hits the net.  With daylight being the ruling, this should make it much more clear to the lino. This makes it like the ‘old days’ where we’d all jump and celebrate but then see the flag and go “oooohhhhhh noooo”  

3) The game IS NOT to be re-referreed by VAR. If the ref didn’t see something, he didn’t see it. Play on. 
The only time VAR can be called upon is if the managers make a challenge. Much like in NFL the coach gets 3 challenges. Much like in cricket they get 3 reviews. 
It only gets referred to VAR if the manager makes a challenge to the decision. 
With goals, they get 20 seconds to throw the challenge flag for example. 
Lose the challenge, it’s gone. Win the challenge you keep the review. Just like in cricket. 
This way, the game isn’t re-reffed by someone in a computer room miles away. Refs decision is final. It’s only referred to VAR if the manager challenges. 
 

I think the main ‘beefs’ this year have been the offsides and the re-reffing at every opportunity. It’s that which slows the game down unnecessarily. 
This way, it’s refs call, or Lino’s call and it can only be reviewed on the managers request. 
 

4) The Handball law. 
No one knows what’s going on here! Unnatural body position and all that nonsense. Something needs to change. Not sure what but maybe it’s only where it is clearly deliberate (ie hand clearly moving toward ball in an intentional movement) or with the ‘unnatural’ element just make this ‘straight arm’. So when defending and the ball hits your hand by your side, play on, it’s only handball if you’ve deliberately stretched your arms out to make yourself bigger. 
Definitely something needs to change there. This will always be subjective though. 
 

5) Let’s not go back to 15-20 seconds before a goal to try to find some way of disallowing it. Goals are a rare commodity. Only the actual act of scoring or the assist can be reviewed. Not some foul or push that occurred 5 passes before in the build up. Again, that’s “re-reffing”. Only the goal or the assist to the goal can be reviewed. 
 

I think these simple changes hand back the control and authority to the ref and lino, and only upon the managers challenge can something be reviewed. It’s a lot like cricket when there’s a nick for a caught behind. The bowler is often adamant that there was a nick but the wicketkeeper might say “no, unsure about that”. 
If a player is absolutely adamant that he’s been fouled for a penalty, then he can shout to his captain or manager and say “you gotta review that, he’s definitely fouled me”. 
This way, players who are disingenuous will soon learn that the boss ain’t gonna make a challenge on a players spurious claims if he’s got form for wasting reviews. Might make the players a bit more honest guv! 

[exAtyeoMax]

16 minutes ago, Harry said:

It won’t happen. 
Once something like this is in place it’s almost impossible for them to remove it again. 
I hate VAR. But if they remove it now they’ll look stupid and backward. Technology is always progressing and if football turned back now they’d be laughed at. 
Wont happen. 

I don't think that's necessarily true. Who will be doing the laughing?

[Robbored]

4 hours ago, Glen hump said:

You could say that for all decisions’ blatant foul in the build up ‘ if he’s missed it he’s missed it ‘ makes no sense whatsoever 

That’s how it was before VaR. All referees missed blatant fouls - it was simply a part of the game and should still be.

[Glen hump]

3 minutes ago, Robbored said:

That’s how it was before VaR. All referees missed blatant fouls - it was simply a part of the game and should still be.

That’s exactly why var should go 

[Markthehorn]

3 hours ago, BigTone said:

Football needs to be careful it doesn't follow the same route as Rugby which has been ruined by video decisions to the point I can't watch it anymore. 

People want rugby/cricket style appeals and replays but not they would work really .

Still be down to the refs subjective opinion and would teams accept losing a review on that ?

The communication can certainly be better yes for fans at games .

[Robbored]

15 minutes ago, Glen hump said:

That’s exactly why var should go 

VaR needs refining, simplified and sped up.Offsides and referee awarded penalties get the VaR treatment along with goals scored but that’s all.

 

[Sir Colby-Tit]

12 hours ago, Robbored said:

VaR needs refining, simplified and sped up.Offsides and referee awarded penalties get the VaR treatment along with goals scored but that’s all.

 

Dear Mr Rob Bored

Are we discussing Value at Risk, or Video Assistant Referees?

[JP Hampton]

16 hours ago, chinapig said:

Quite. Of course people remember the errors and ignore all the correct decisions so the debate generates more heat than light. But the proportion of correct decisions has increased from 87% to 94%.

One manager (possibly Nuno but I can't be sure) said he had to get his decisions 100% right and so should officials. It's good to know there is a manager who has achieved perfection and it's not even Pep!

I think it was Farke following his 12 letters of apology after refereeing errors this season and the offside decision against Firpo and a penalty not given in the first leg of the play offs against Norwich. In fairness it’s was what he said he expected of himself. 

[2015]

VAR has rapidly made me lose interest in top level football.

[Mihai]

I like VAR for my bettings. It made me win good money with penalties that occurred 5 mins ago and the ref came out of no where with a penalty from a moment  we forgot about haha.

Give me the money, baby!

[Robbored]

32 minutes ago, Sir Colby-Tit said:

Are we discussing Value at Risk, or Video Assistant Referees?

I suggest that you scroll thru this thread Sir.

[Cowshed]

15 hours ago, Harry said:

It won’t happen. 
Once something like this is in place it’s almost impossible for them to remove it again. 
I hate VAR. But if they remove it now they’ll look stupid and backward. Technology is always progressing and if football turned back now they’d be laughed at. 
Wont happen. 
 

So, I have no doubt that it is here to stay. And therefore it needs to be changed. It won’t be scrapped so it needs to improve. 

Immediate improvements I’d make :

4) The Handball law. 
No one knows what’s going on here! Unnatural body position and all that nonsense. Something needs to change. Not sure what but maybe it’s only where it is clearly deliberate (ie hand clearly moving toward ball in an intentional movement) or with the ‘unnatural’ element just make this ‘straight arm’. So when defending and the ball hits your hand by your side, play on, it’s only handball if you’ve deliberately stretched your arms out to make yourself bigger. 
Definitely something needs to change there. This will always be subjective though. 
 

 

No wonder you don't know what is going on, unnatural body position isn't a handball offence. 

[Bar BS3]

It was supposed to clear up "clear & obvious" errors - now it takes apart hairline decisions & even looks for things that haven't been seen.

 

I've always thought it should be limited to an amount of reviews per team, pear match/half (similar to tennis)

Let the managers decide what is important & when to use their review quota.

If they waste those on petty quibbles then they lose the opportunity for bigger decisions later on.

Beyond that, it is awful & takes too much emotion out of the game.

I'm really not looking forward to it coming to our level.

Celebrating a goal, only for it to later be ruled out because someone nowhere near the ball happened to be spotted doing something irrelevant is an absolute nonsense. 

A quick glance at the linesman should be all that's required to see if a goal will stand or not.

Maybe review off the ball incidents & red card decisions to ensure they are correct - but beyond that, let the referees do their job , with a quota of 2 or 3 optional reviews per team or something like that. 

[Markthehorn]

Having reviews won’t stop “ bad controversial “ subjective decisions being made by officials though ?

Even in cricket and rugby there is more and more questions asked about the DRS system and TMO by a team who don’t get the decision they want or expect .

Ben Stokes was complaining about the former in India for example.

I am not sure anything really works unless  there is an incident so clear cut even the most biased of fan or player can complain.

We got ourselves onto this mess by expecting perfection and all refs to be like robots in a way when they aren’t.

Edited May 17 by Markthehorn

[Harry]

1 hour ago, Cowshed said:

No wonder you don't know what is going on, unnatural body position isn't a handball offence. 

Well. It is ….. 

It is an offence if a player: 

• deliberately touches the ball with their hand/arm, for example moving the hand/arm towards the ball
• touches the ball with their hand/arm when it has made their body unnaturally bigger. A player is considered to have made their body unnaturally bigger when the position of their hand/arm is not a consequence of, or justifiable by, the player’s body movement for that specific situation. By having their hand/arm in such a position, the player takes a risk of their hand/arm being hit by the ball and being penalised

[BanburyRed]

For me, it's a no brainer. Get rid. Ruining the game. When you have to draw multiple lines on the pitch and slow play down to review again and again to see that half a shoulder blade is offside.....nah, not for me.

[Cowshed]

3 minutes ago, Harry said:

 

Well. It is ….. 

It is an offence if a player: 

• deliberately touches the ball with their hand/arm, for example moving the hand/arm towards the ball
• touches the ball with their hand/arm when it has made their body unnaturally bigger. A player is considered to have made their body unnaturally bigger when the position of their hand/arm is not a consequence of, or justifiable by, the player’s body movement for that specific situation. By having their hand/arm in such a position, the player takes a risk of their hand/arm being hit by the ball and being penalised

No Harry. The ball touching the body in a unnatural body position is not an offence. Bodyball is not an offence..

The law there is not a nonsense. It is specific. The ball can strike a arm/hand in differing positions and there is no offence if the players arms/hand is in a justifiable position x movement x specific situation. 

[JP Hampton]

2 hours ago, Cowshed said:

No wonder you don't know what is going on, unnatural body position isn't a handball offence. 

I’m pretty sure it is

[Cowshed]

1 minute ago, JP Hampton said:

I’m pretty sure it is

Bodyball isn't an offence.

[Red Billy]

A vote has already taken place and all clubs have agreed to scrap it.  However VAR reviewed the decision and it has now been over turned. 

[Harry]

1 hour ago, Cowshed said:

No Harry. The ball touching the body in a unnatural body position is not an offence. Bodyball is not an offence..

The law there is not a nonsense. It is specific. The ball can strike an arm/hand in differing positions and there is no offence if the players arms/hand is in a justifiable position x movement x specific situation. 

The text I wrote in my previous response is direct from the FA website.