Vyner, for Kenya

[Leveller]

1 hour ago, Numero Uno said:

Unless you go down a very strict rule of Birthplace only there will be ways to get round the system.

If we did that, Haaland would have to play for England!

[ExiledAjax]

40 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Isn't defining your nationality a personal choice though? Why should a set of football rules define it? Everyone's lived experience is going to be different.

I'd distinguish between defining your own identity in the wider world and everyday life, and defining it for the purpose of a competition based upon nationality.

I think it's acceptable to have stricter rules for the latter but permit more fluidity in the former. I don't think that the choice for that competition should be up to the individual, it should be up to the competition organisers.

Which is what we have now - but in my opinion those competition rules allow too much personal choice to the point that the competition can be rendered largely meaningless.

It is a wide reaching, fascinating, and sometimes sensitive topic that elicits powerful emotions. I get that. I've changed my view on it a lot after living abroad, having a child abroad (in a country where the virtue of being born there does not give him a right to live there or take a passport from there), and viewing the UK from the outside. 

[GrahamC]

2 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Mental. Just because you are born and raised in one country it doesn't mean you can't be of another nationality. 

Also, particularly in the case of people born and raised in the UK who often have a parent from more than one nation (like me) then why couldn't they choose which country they turn out for?

Swear it's only some England fans (presumably all 100% English thoroughbreds!) that get so exercised about these rules. 

Suppose it depends on if you have to listen to Wales repeatedly banging on about their one international success when all 3 goals were scored by players born in England?

They are basically the new Irish Republic, who have far more born in their own country now.

[Numero Uno]

1 hour ago, ExiledAjax said:

I'd distinguish between defining your own identity in the wider world and everyday life, and defining it for the purpose of a competition based upon nationality.

I think it's acceptable to have stricter rules for the latter but permit more fluidity in the former. I don't think that the choice for that competition should be up to the individual, it should be up to the competition organisers.

Which is what we have now - but in my opinion those competition rules allow too much personal choice to the point that the competition can be rendered largely meaningless.

It is a wide reaching, fascinating, and sometimes sensitive topic that elicits powerful emotions. I get that. I've changed my view on it a lot after living abroad, having a child abroad (in a country where the virtue of being born there does not give him a right to live there or take a passport from there), and viewing the UK from the outside. 

The reality is that football almost certainly took legal advice and is looking to avoid a load of "affecting my human rights as a dyed in the wool Azerbaijani" type claims........because if there is a gap the human rights lawyers will drive a bus through it!!

[ExiledAjax]

13 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

The reality is that football almost certainly took legal advice and is looking to avoid a load of "affecting my human rights as a dyed in the wool Azerbaijani" type claims........because if there is a gap the human rights lawyers will drive a bus through it!!

And yet a dyed in the wool British person has no choice but to represent a sub-division of the country. 

That could be a fun case, take the FA to court for failing to allow someone to express their national identity by blocking a GB football team.

[Kid in the Riot]

19 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Suppose it depends on if you have to listen to Wales repeatedly banging on about their one international success when all 3 goals were scored by players born in England?

They are basically the new Irish Republic, who have far more born in their own country now.

Don't understand why that should upset England fans? As a smaller nation they are going to have to be more resourceful to try and compete with much larger countries. 

England is a country 20 times the size of Wales and (in theory) should never have to worry about beating them with the resources and behemoth of the Premier League academies, at their disposal. So who cares if a few players that will never be good enough for England play for them?!

[Numero Uno]

11 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

And yet a dyed in the wool British person has no choice but to represent a sub-division of the country. 

That could be a fun case, take the FA to court for failing to allow someone to express their national identity by blocking a GB football team.

I think you know the reasons for that..........if a GB football team ever takes hold in any capacity you will have most of UEFA and FIFA wanting to dismantle the four separate National Teams to give themselves more chances of qualifying for competitions. Not to mention how the four FA's would combine one National side......that would be even more interesting. I'm British but would have no interest whatsoever in representing anyone but England, like a very high proportion of others I would suggest.

[Kid in the Riot]

12 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

I think you know the reasons for that..........if a GB football team ever takes hold in any capacity you will have most of UEFA and FIFA wanting to dismantle the four separate National Teams to give themselves more chances of qualifying for competitions. Not to mention how the four FA's would combine one National side......that would be even more interesting. I'm British but would have no interest whatsoever in representing anyone but England, like a very high proportion of others I would suggest.

Since devolution there is zero chance of a GB team. The nations that make up the UK are moving further apart, not closer. 

[Major Isewater]

This nationality argument just sums up how insignificant international teams are today. 
International football is an anachronism. 
IMHO. 

[ExiledAjax]

21 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

if a GB football team ever takes hold in any capacity you will have most of UEFA and FIFA wanting to dismantle the four separate National Teams

An excellent thing in my opinion. I'm English by blood but my country is the UK and that's the only one I'd ever want to represent at international level competition (in my dreams).

21 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Not to mention how the four FA's would combine one National side

Ideally they'd be dismantled or placed under an overarching GB FA, reduced to running regional teams in a manner that county FAs do atm. Amateur competition within the British isles could still involve the four "nations", but when going up against proper countries we should be UK.

8 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Since devolution there is zero chance of a GB team. The nations that make up the UK are moving further apart, not closer. 

A petty tragedy that weakens the nation.

Anyway, well done to Vyner for going for Kenya rather than a remedial cultural region that masquerades as a country.

Edited May 26 by ExiledAjax

[JAWS]

4 hours ago, TammyAB said:

I think the rule should be you can’t play for a nation you’ve never lived in and don’t plan on living in either.

 

Can imagine Wales and Northern Ireland falling sharply down the rankings after that.

I think the rule should be you should live there after you've played 

[A Horse With No Name]

6 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

Good to see him respecting his heritage regardless of quality. That's what international football should be about.

Don't agree. You should only be eligible to play for the country you were born in, but that's another debate.

[transfer reader]

3 hours ago, TammyAB said:

Yep. You need the Welsh granny too mind.

Wazza has had her already.

Oh, not what you meant?

[Bazooka Joe]

Kenya believe it?

Definitely Ghana check if it's true.

[Harry]

6 hours ago, Aaron-Bcfc said:

Kenya’s national team is very, very poor.

If anything it will knock a bit of value off his price tag. Flying halfway across the globe for international duty and potentially missing a month of a season through AFCON.

Kenya’s team is indeed poor but I can confirm that having spent some time over there volunteering in some schools and indeed playing football against some of the kids, there is a huge amount of untapped potential. 
There is a huge class divide over there. 
 

The only kids who get the opportunities to play for one of the ‘big’ teams or to even get an chance to showcase themselves at the academies and tournaments are those from a more ‘well off’ background (well, as ‘well off’ as you can be in Kenya). 
The kids I met over there were from the slums of Nairobi and trust me when I say that some of these lads were the most skilful and intelligent footballers I’ve ever played against. 
Their problem is that they will just never ever get given the opportunity to get into a pro club. They can’t even get a trial or a place in a tournament unless they have money. 
One lad I met was playing against us in a pair of boots that were knackered and 2 sizes too small for him and yet he was, in my opinion, at least capable of National League football, possibly even higher. His brain, his skills, his football intelligence, his technique, his awareness was all superb. But the poor kid will never ever ever be given an opportunity. 
I said it when I was out there and I still maintain the opinion now - if a pro club from Europe spent some time out there in the poor neighbourhoods and gave some of these kids an opportunity, they would without a doubt cultivate a successful platform. There is huge untapped potential in the country if you look outside of the ‘paid-for’ academies and tournaments. 

Edited May 26 by Harry

[22A]

3 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Isn't defining your nationality a personal choice though? Why should a set of football rules define it? Everyone's lived experience is going to be different.

When my son was 16 or 17 he declared "If I got a job and moved to Andorra, I've seen their standard of football and after 10 years, I would be naturalised and could play for them".

[RoystonFoote'snephew]

5 hours ago, TammyAB said:

I don’t care when the African countries do it, just find it amusing when the British ones do.

Hal Robson-Kanu declaring for Wales is my favourite story.

Tony Cascarino has to be mine. Having played for the Republic of Ireland during Jack Charlton's reign as manager (when the collective noun for the ROI team was an Acquaintance) he admitted in his autobiography that his mother was adopted and not a blood relative of his Irish grandfather so should not strictly be eligible. Given a passport with restricted validity the ROI FA nevertheless considered he had a right of residency in ROI and therefore eligible. 

[Simon bristol]

25 minutes ago, Harry said:

Kenya’s team is indeed poor but I can confirm that having spent some time over there volunteering in some schools and indeed playing football against some of the kids, there is a huge amount of untapped potential. 
There is a huge class divide over there. 
 

The only kids who get the opportunities to play for one of the ‘big’ teams or to even get an chance to showcase themselves at the academies and tournaments are those from a more ‘well off’ background (well, as ‘well off’ as you can be in Kenya). 
The kids I met over there were from the slums of Nairobi and trust me when I say that some of these lads were the most skilful and intelligent footballers I’ve ever played against. 
Their problem is that they will just never ever get given the opportunity to get into a pro club. They can’t even get a trial or a place in a tournament unless they have money. 
One lad I met was playing against us in a pair of boots that were knackered and 2 sizes too small for him and yet he was, in my opinion, at least capable of National League football, possibly even higher. His brain, his skills, his football intelligence, his technique, his awareness was all superb. But the poor kid will never ever ever be given an opportunity. 
I said it when I was out there and I still maintain the opinion now - if a pro club from Europe spent some time out there in the poor neighbourhoods and gave some of these kids an opportunity, they would without a doubt cultivate a successful platform. There is huge untapped potential in the country if you look outside of the ‘paid-for’ academies and tournaments. 

Kudos for your voluntary work, would be nice to think that through this vyner call up we could have a way in to these tournaments, im sure we are a decent club to pick up good young players and make sure they are looked after.

[GrahamC]

1 hour ago, Harry said:

Kenya’s team is indeed poor but I can confirm that having spent some time over there volunteering in some schools and indeed playing football against some of the kids, there is a huge amount of untapped potential. 
There is a huge class divide over there. 
 

The only kids who get the opportunities to play for one of the ‘big’ teams or to even get an chance to showcase themselves at the academies and tournaments are those from a more ‘well off’ background (well, as ‘well off’ as you can be in Kenya). 
The kids I met over there were from the slums of Nairobi and trust me when I say that some of these lads were the most skilful and intelligent footballers I’ve ever played against. 
Their problem is that they will just never ever get given the opportunity to get into a pro club. They can’t even get a trial or a place in a tournament unless they have money. 
One lad I met was playing against us in a pair of boots that were knackered and 2 sizes too small for him and yet he was, in my opinion, at least capable of National League football, possibly even higher. His brain, his skills, his football intelligence, his technique, his awareness was all superb. But the poor kid will never ever ever be given an opportunity. 
I said it when I was out there and I still maintain the opinion now - if a pro club from Europe spent some time out there in the poor neighbourhoods and gave some of these kids an opportunity, they would without a doubt cultivate a successful platform. There is huge untapped potential in the country if you look outside of the ‘paid-for’ academies and tournaments. 

Spot on.

Remember Victor Wanyama? Absolute top quality player.

The way out of poverty in Kenya is usually middle distance running but as he showed, the talent exists that would make the grade in high level football.

[Harry]

11 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Spot on.

Remember Victor Wanyama? Absolute top quality player.

The way out of poverty in Kenya is usually middle distance running but as he showed, the talent exists that would make the grade in high level football.

Wanyama was lucky enough to go to a County school, which has government funding. Many school have no funding and rely on ‘harambee’, as described earlier in this thread. The kids from the harambee schools have no chance of getting into a properly organised football team

[Port Said Red]

17 hours ago, GrahamC said:

Spot on.

Remember Victor Wanyama? Absolute top quality player.

The way out of poverty in Kenya is usually middle distance running but as he showed, the talent exists that would make the grade in high level football.

Talking of athletics, watching the Diamond League from Eugene over the weekend, I couldn't help noticing how more relaxed the American authorities seem to be on immigration when the migrants in question can run fast, jump far or throw something to a potential Gold Medal level.

Of course, again they are not the only nation to do so.

[Mr Popodopolous]

I remember it being in January before, so looking somewhat ahead here but AFCON 2025 should Kenya qualify and Vyner be picked will now be January 2026.

Edited June 7 by Mr Popodopolous

[MarcusX]

On 26/05/2024 at 09:58, ExiledAjax said:

Yeh and then you can contrast players like Semenyo and Mainoo. I believe both have full Ghanaian parentage, but both born in the UK.

One goes for Ghana one for "England". The only difference is that one is considered good enough to play for a top "nation" and one isn't so he makes do. Nice for Mainoo that he'll get the higher profile, but you wonder what a player like Semenyo would say about it.

It's not really for you to say how people should feel about their "heritage" though or which family members they connect most with.

Semenyo's father was a professional footballer in Ghana so there's more football "heritage" and link back to Ghana there.

Mainoo may have never even been to Ghana for all you know?

On 26/05/2024 at 10:50, TammyAB said:

Because if you were born in, raised, educated and worked in England, but play for Wales because of a Gran, you are no representation of how good Wales are at football because they have had no input into your development as a player.

And I notice @ExiledAjax liked this post - yet is questioning Mainoo, born in England, raised in England, educated and trained in England turning out for... England

My partner was born in England, educated in England, lived in England all her life (except 3 years at uni in Cardiff). Both her Parents are Welsh - what nationality is she? It's not for anyone else to judge how she feels - and as far as she's concerned she's both.

As I said on the other thread, I have a foreign Grandmother, and therefore my Mum inherited a lot of that culture and so did I. I love that aspect of my descendency and no one can try and take that away from me because it's "just a grandmother". Even more important to me to explore that culture since she passed away in Covid times and didn't really get the last bit of time with her.

 

[TammyAB]

4 minutes ago, MarcusX said:

It's not really for you to say how people should feel about their "heritage" though or which family members they connect most with.

Semenyo's father was a professional footballer in Ghana so there's more football "heritage" and link back to Ghana there.

Mainoo may have never even been to Ghana for all you know?

And I notice @ExiledAjax liked this post - yet is questioning Mainoo, born in England, raised in England, educated and trained in England turning out for... England

My partner was born in England, educated in England, lived in England all her life (except 3 years at uni in Cardiff). Both her Parents are Welsh - what nationality is she? It's not for anyone else to judge how she feels - and as far as she's concerned she's both.

As I said on the other thread, I have a foreign Grandmother, and therefore my Mum inherited a lot of that culture and so did I. I love that aspect of my descendency and no one can try and take that away from me because it's "just a grandmother". Even more important to me to explore that culture since she passed away in Covid times and didn't really get the last bit of time with her.

 

No one wants to take it away from you, chill

[MarcusX]

Just now, TammyAB said:

No one wants to take it away from you, chill

Maybe not me, I'm giving a view point - and I'm chill

But there are people on this thread trying to dictate who players should represent, I personally think it's a little unfair and more nuanced than just one factor eg birthplace, bloodline etc

[TammyAB]

33 minutes ago, MarcusX said:

Maybe not me, I'm giving a view point - and I'm chill

But there are people on this thread trying to dictate who players should represent, I personally think it's a little unfair and more nuanced than just one factor eg birthplace, bloodline etc

Do you think Tommy Conway felt Scottish before he realised he had a chance of playing some international football? Or Hal Robson-Kanu felt Welsh?

[ExiledAjax]

1 hour ago, MarcusX said:

It's not really for you to say how people should feel about their "heritage" though or which family members they connect most with.

Semenyo's father was a professional footballer in Ghana so there's more football "heritage" and link back to Ghana there.

Mainoo may have never even been to Ghana for all you know?

No it's not for me to say definitively, but I can have an opinion on whether the current rules are sensible or not. I think it's odd that you can represent a country based either on your blood or your birthplace and that you can effectively choose where you "come from". I think the rules should be stricter and should just pick one of those. Someone's blood/DNA is what it is and it can't be changed just because you "feel" something else. European countries generally grant citizenship based on blood, and that leads me toward a conclusion that if the objective is to actually compare countries and have them compete against each other then there should be stricter rules around who can play for which team and that national team eligibility should be decided by blood rather than some sort of self-determined feeling of identity.

My son was born abroad, and has a foreign birth certificate - but he's British by blood, and the country he was born in would not recognise him as being of that nation at all. If he ever plays international sport then he should represent the UK just as Mainoo should join Semenyo and Saka should turn out for Nigeria. Wouldn't that give us a much more interesting international scene where nations that have not benefited from huge waves of immigration can instead benefit from the training and education that their nation's diaspora receive?

This would only limit someone's international sporting representation of course. I'm not trying to deny Mainoo a British passport or say that he can't consider himself part of British society or anything like that at all.

Edit: important to note that this is my opinion based on the current system of national football teams. I'd have no issue with Mainoo or Saka representing a UK team but at the moment we insist on fielding four teams based on four national heritages, which suggests we prioritise blood over citizenship. If we sensibly switched then I'd be fine with people representing where they were born/were citizens. It's a consistency issue really.

Edited June 7 by ExiledAjax

[RoystonFoote'snephew]

18 minutes ago, TammyAB said:

Do you think Tommy Conway felt Scottish before he realised he had a chance of playing some international football? Or Hal Robson-Kanu felt Welsh?

On Tommy's case, given his recent comments and that his father is a bit of a tartan army freak, then yes. 

[Hxj]

23 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

European countries generally grant citizenship based on blood

But they all also allow Citizenship by residency or marriage and most for money ...

[22A]

On 26/05/2024 at 14:26, A Horse With No Name said:

Don't agree. You should only be eligible to play for the country you were born in, but that's another debate.

Children born to British military families serving overseas are considered British citizens. My wife was born in Germany and her brother in Cyprus, but are Brits because of the parents.