A Question For Religous Types...

[Taz]

I'm shocked, how dare you!! In a religious thread an all!! Shocking

Well...The baby Jesus had to be born somehow

[DolmanDudess]

Well...The baby Jesus had to be born somehow

It was a miracle, he was incarnate of the Virgin Mary and was made man!! Never forget that!!

[Guest DrFaustus]

And if we don't believe in him then we're all going to hell...

Why so? If you don't believe in God, then why should you be concerned about going to hell? too many people take the Christian faith in a far too fundamental way in my view......there aren't many people who believe that dinosaur fosils were planted by God to confuse folk and that we all genuinely descend from Adam and Eve. A lot of theology is open to more interpretation than than it is given credit for by the cod-scientist press. Speak to true scientists and many of them are at the least agnostic.

[Taz]

It was a miracle, he was incarnate of the Virgin Mary and was made man!! Never forget that!!

Oh

[Dorset_Cider]

And if we don't believe in him then we're all going to hell...

You may go where you wish................... as for me

I'll let you know when I get there.

If you don't believe..... like me...... then hey you'll just die and that will be that...... it is a bit terminal and frightening to think like me though..... so don't eh.

On the other hand if you don't believe but have got it all wrong ...... you might be able to repent and get into the Kingdom of Heaven.............. are you a big sinner Ron?

DR.F already has been to hell & back.......... to the pit of gas

[Mr Mosquito]

Thank good henry vIII pulled away from rome. And elizabeth I'st didnt marry the king of spain. That was a good thing wasn't it red goblin

As by posting a link to this topic on my Red Goblin corner of the subcider forum I take it

you want a considered reply?

Henry VIII and his daughter Elizabeth were both imposter monarchs to the English thrown, the last legitimate monarch of England being King Richard III. That's the royalist argument over with

As for the Catholic Spanish and their treasure ships, they were immensly popular as easy pickings for Oliver Cromwell's Republican and Commonwealth navy. Let the Spanish do the hard work getting the gold and silver out of the mines of South America and ambush their treasure ships en route to Spain.

I quite like the Spanish, so much so I'm off to their island of Tenerife in August.

[WTFiGO!?!]

Free choice is one of the crucial predicate's of being human which is something that our nanny's up at Westminster seem to ignore so that's my answer for 'why do bad thing's happen?' we're all guilty of being ****'s to differing extent's so collectively we get ourselve's in a pickle, man.

Natuaral disaster's I find hard to explain but if you're going to live by the side of a derelict ( ) volcanoe don't be surprised if it bight's you in the ass.

For any non-simpleton, God or the concept and implication's of one is a head**** and there ain't no two way's about it.

Religion, like any other human institution is prone to manipulation, exploitation and corruption.

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Jesus is just alright with me......(The Bryd's)

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[WTFiGO!?!]

Free choice is one of the crucial predicate's of being human which is something that our nanny's up at Westminster seem to ignore so that's my answer for 'why do bad thing's happen?' we're all guilty of being ****'s to differing extent's so collectively we get ourselve's in a pickle, man.

Natuaral disaster's I find hard to explain but if you're going to live by the side of a derelict ( ) volcanoe don't be surprised if it bight's you in the ass.

For any non-simpleton, God or the concept and implication's of one is a head**** and there ain't no two way's about it.

Religion, like any other human institution is prone to manipulation, exploitation and corruption.

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

Jesus is just alright with me......(The Bryd's)

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

Edit:Posted the same thing twice, not cos I thought'd it be funny or that I am off my t1t's (cos I'm not) but cos there was some kind of weird 'thing' going on with the Database.

[rayer]

Didnt Lucifer question the act of god and was punished by god by being sent down to rule in hell for eternity ?

Not very nice for someone who had a different opinion to the almighty and was forced out and punished for his alternative view.

[mozo]

Religion, like any other human institution is prone to manipulation, exploitation and corruption.

And that where we come in with the revolution - seemingly liberating, actually exploitative.

Didnt Lucifer question the act of god and was punished by god by being sent down to rule in hell for eternity ?

Not very nice for someone who had a different opinion to the almighty and was forced out and punished for his alternative view.

So God's a bit of a totalitarian, what would Orwell say?

[Spud55]

I do believe in a god, i just think that there is something out there, i don't believe that this god does anything while we are alive, he just sits and watches, he's a benevolent creature, does not interevine on the part of those that he perhaps fovours he lets us get on with it, make our own choices, and mistakes and watches in the somewhat vain hope that we learn from them.

I believe in an afterlife, not in suc sense as heaven or hell as they are artificial creations of people, but what i do believe is that when you die your soul goes off somewhere, if you are a descent person in life and genuienly feel a sense of remorse for the more unsavoury acts that we all comit at times, you are free to be with the souls of other dead people, but if you are a **** you are doomed to an eternity of solitude, which is the most horiffic punsihment any human soul can have put upon it IMO, humans as a species crave social interaction and isolation will send you mad, and an eternity of such would be a greater punishment than any created devil could ever inflict upon your soul.

I can't say i'm religious as a am no fan of religion, as i feel it has perverted what is essentially such a pure and good thing into a source of control and power for the greedy with which to use to exploit the weak and powerless, i'd say i'm more spiritual than religious.

As i see it if you treat others as you youself would expect to be treated by others in life then you never truly die, and continue for eternity in the company of others, use your position to exploit others and IMo you are doomed to an eternity of isolation. I firmly believe that there are many, many religious leaders currently leading out this punishment for their intolerance of others beliefs and using their religion which was created to help makind to control people.

If there truly is a Heaven and a hell i would see a lot of popes and religious leaders down in the firery pits, while many non believers but good people are sat in heaven at gods side.

[Rednready]

2 questions for people of the christian faith:

1- jesus christ was a simple man who lived a simple existance and not generating wealth. Why is the vatican such an eloberate place of great wealth and massive imposing buildings.

2- if the christian religion is all about forgiveness, why have a judgement day at the end of it all?

Consider Constantines problem. Wealth, time and a vast number of unemployed Italians. No TV , computors or movie theatres to occupy their time. No different to the Egyptians and their pyramids, the Aztecs and their mountain top palaces. Just another huge adventure in public works development and power.

Where does it say that religion is 'ALL' about forgiveness. As revkev says, there is a fair bit of repent and follow the guidelines involved.

In England, Church attendances have dropped off alarmingly, and this topic shows how little christianity there is in this forum. A lot of that is down to 24/7 TV packages, computors, cars, malls, in other words 'distractions'. Then of course the last two generations have not endured or faced a major war or invasion, losses of many loved ones in conflict, gone without food and normal services. Soft and self indulged barely covers it, and believe me the more the chips are down, the more prayers are going up.

I can never argue with those without faith, but I believe in the Father Son and Holy Ghost, I believe in the here after, and live everlasting.

May my God smile on each and every one of you this Easter and always.

Rednready.

[Mr Mosquito]

Consider Constantines problem. Wealth, time and a vast number of unemployed Italians. No TV , computors or movie theatres to occupy their time. No different to the Egyptians and their pyramids, the Aztecs and their mountain top palaces. Just another huge adventure in public works development and power.

Where does it say that religion is 'ALL' about forgiveness. As revkev says, there is a fair bit of repent and follow the guidelines involved.

In England, Church attendances have dropped off alarmingly, and this topic shows how little christianity there is in this forum. A lot of that is down to 24/7 TV packages, computors, cars, malls, in other words 'distractions'. Then of course the last two generations have not endured or faced a major war or invasion, losses of many loved ones in conflict, gone without food and normal services. Soft and self indulged barely covers it, and believe me the more the chips are down, the more prayers are going up.

I can never argue with those without faith, but I believe in the Father Son and Holy Ghost, I believe in the here after, and live everlasting.

May my God smile on each and every one of you this Easter and always.

Rednready.

Blimey, that was an extremely clever and articulate post. Are you after the revkev's job?

[Mr Mosquito]

And that where we come in with the revolution - seemingly liberating, actually exploitative.

So God's a bit of a totalitarian, what would Orwell say?

mozo, you may find the following George Orwell extract interesting.....

George Orwell "Why I Write" (September, 1946)

I think there are four great motives for writing, at any rate for writing prose. They exist in different degrees in every writer, and in any one writer the proportions will vary from time to time, according to the atmosphere in which he is living. They are:

1. Sheer egotism. Desire to seem clever, to be talked about, to be remembered after death, to get your own back on grown-ups who snubbed you in childhood, etc. etc.

2. Aesthetic enthusiasm. Perception of beauty in the external world, or, on the other hand, in words and their right arrangement. Pleasure in the impact of one sound on another, in the firmness of good prose or the rhythm of a good story. Desire to share an experience which one feels is valuable and ought not to be missed.

3. Historical impulse. Desire to see things as they are, to find out true facts and store them up for the use of posterity.

4. Political purpose - using the word 'political' in the widest possible sense. Desire to push the world in a certain direction, to alter other people's idea of the kind of society that they should strive after.

It can be seen how these various impulses must war against one another, and how they must fluctuate from person to person and from time to time. By nature - taking your nature to be the state you have attained when you are first adult - I am a person in whom the first three motives would outweigh the fourth. In a peaceful age I might have written ornate or merely descriptive books, and might have remained almost unaware of my political loyalties. As it is I have been forced into becoming a sort of pamphleteer.

Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic Socialism, as I understand it. It seems to me nonsense, in a period like our own, to think that one can avoid writing of such subjects. It is simply a question of which side one takes and what approach one follows.

[Dinky Gems]

How to put the world to right, by the members of the OTIB forum.

I find the best way to get the correct answer to such deep and meaningful questions, is to ask a child. There minds are so pure, you'll only get the truth. Always works wih me , mind you, maybe thats why my heads in the clouds most of the time . hey ho?!xxx

[Guest Ron]

Soft and self indulged barely covers it, and believe me the more the chips are down, the more prayers are going up.

In what way? I know that if a war happened soon and my family was involved I wouldn't be turning to religion, my family isn't religious, and while I agree with most of the morals, I don't believe in a "God" creature. Why does that make me self-indulgent?

[Dinky Gems]

In what way? I know that if a war happened soon and my family was involved I wouldn't be turning to religion, my family isn't religious, and while I agree with most of the morals, I don't believe in a "God" creature. Why does that make me self-indulgent?

Religion is a choice, if you choose not to believe, it doesnt make you self indulgent. Everyone has a right to believe and follow what they wish as long as it doesnt mean harming others. xxxx

[hilltop red]

As by posting a link to this topic on my Red Goblin corner of the subcider forum I take it

you want a considered reply?

Henry VIII and his daughter Elizabeth were both imposter monarchs to the English thrown, the last legitimate monarch of England being King Richard III. That's the royalist argument over with

As for the Catholic Spanish and their treasure ships, they were immensly popular as easy pickings for Oliver Cromwell's Republican and Commonwealth navy. Let the Spanish do the hard work getting the gold and silver out of the mines of South America and ambush their treasure ships en route to Spain.

I quite like the Spanish, so much so I'm off to their island of Tenerife in August.

how can they be imposter monarch when they are there by divine right :whistle:The only imposter was richard III'S probable step son. But once he became king. His descendants would be monarchs by law anyway

didn't elizabeth and drake start the plundering thing and exploaration of the new world, and also gave us the world leading navy untill the second world war!

unfortunatley gordy brown has probably sold all the gold back to the spainish now

[KevinC]

Blimey, that was an extremely clever and articulate post. Are you after the revkev's job?

I could do with a holiday

[mozo]

mozo, you may find the following George Orwell extract interesting.....

George Orwell "Why I Write" (September, 1946)

I think there are four great motives for writing, at any rate for writing prose. They exist in different degrees in every writer, and in any one writer the proportions will vary from time to time, according to the atmosphere in which he is living. They are:

1. Sheer egotism. Desire to seem clever, to be talked about, to be remembered after death, to get your own back on grown-ups who snubbed you in childhood, etc. etc.

2. Aesthetic enthusiasm. Perception of beauty in the external world, or, on the other hand, in words and their right arrangement. Pleasure in the impact of one sound on another, in the firmness of good prose or the rhythm of a good story. Desire to share an experience which one feels is valuable and ought not to be missed.

3. Historical impulse. Desire to see things as they are, to find out true facts and store them up for the use of posterity.

4. Political purpose - using the word 'political' in the widest possible sense. Desire to push the world in a certain direction, to alter other people's idea of the kind of society that they should strive after.

It can be seen how these various impulses must war against one another, and how they must fluctuate from person to person and from time to time. By nature - taking your nature to be the state you have attained when you are first adult - I am a person in whom the first three motives would outweigh the fourth. In a peaceful age I might have written ornate or merely descriptive books, and might have remained almost unaware of my political loyalties. As it is I have been forced into becoming a sort of pamphleteer.

Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic Socialism, as I understand it. It seems to me nonsense, in a period like our own, to think that one can avoid writing of such subjects. It is simply a question of which side one takes and what approach one follows.

Cheers for Gobbers, really interesting stuff. I'm into my writing and I've also just bought Orwell's Down And Out In Paris And London, so very apt.

[KevinC]

Cheers for Gobbers, really interesting stuff. I'm into my writing and I've also just bought Orwell's Down And Out In Paris And London, so very apt.

Read "The Road To Wigan Pier"... heartbreaking stuff

[Mr Mosquito]

Read "The Road To Wigan Pier"... heartbreaking stuff

There have been men and women throughout history that have stood head and shoulders above their contemporaries. George Orwell is one of them in my opinion. I found the following extracts from George Orwell's writings at....

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/Jorwell.htm

...brilliant writing in ordinary everyday language that's easily understood - afterall the great man was a self proclaimed Socialist. "The Road to Wigan Pier" written in 1937 may be a tad dated but "The Lion and the Unicorn" written in 1941 is as true today as when it was written 65 years ago ......

The Road to Wigan Pier, George Orwell (1937)......

It hardly needs pointing out that at the moment we are in a very serious mess, so serious that even the dullest-witted people find it difficult to remain unaware of it. We are living in a world in which nobody is free, in which hardly anybody is secure, in which it is almost impossible to be honest and to remain alive. For enormous blocks of the working class the conditions of life are such as I have described in the opening chapters of this book, and there is no chance of those conditions showing any fundamental improvement. The very best the English working class can hope for is an occasional temporary decrease in unemployment when this or that industry is artificially stimulated by, for instance, rearmament.

And all the while everyone who uses his brain knows that Socialism, as a world-system and wholeheartedly applied, is a way out. The world is a raft sailing through space with, potentially, plenty of provisions for everybody; the idea that we must all co-operate and see to it that everyone does his fair share of the work and gets his fair share of the provisions seems so blatantly obvious that one would say that no one could possibly fail to accept it unless he had some corrupt motive for clinging to the present system.

The Lion and the Unicorn, George Orwell (1941).......

England is a family with the wrong members in control. Almost entirely we are governed by the rich, and by people who stay in positions of command by right of birth. Few if any of these people are consciously treacherous, some of them are not even fools.... The shock of disaster brought a few able men like Bevin to the front, but in general we are commanded by people who managed to live through the years 1931-9 without even discovering that Hitler was dangerous. A generation of the unteachable is hanging upon us like a necklace of corpses.

[CGS RED]

Blimey, that was an extremely clever and articulate post. Are you after the revkev's job?

The Rev can have his job, I'me just another old Cotham GS boy like yourself, using freedom of speech.

[CGS RED]

In what way? I know that if a war happened soon and my family was involved I wouldn't be turning to religion, my family isn't religious, and while I agree with most of the morals, I don't believe in a "God" creature. Why does that make me self-indulgent?

Ron you have no idea how you would react in a major war confrontation, no man does. Grown men are reduced to tears. Churches, once barely one third filled, are suddenly filled to capacity. In a years time you will not be the person you are today, nor will I. Everybody changes. I turned my back on the church, in wartime, as the wrong men were getting killed, like a school teacher caught up in National service.

You have never had to stand in a food ration line, as in the 40's and early 50's. I had my first car at 24, had not seen a tv until 22, and computor was not in the vocabulary. There will always be the poor, but now at least there are government benefits for health and food. Believe me Ron your generation is indulged, you have not experienced the hard alternatives, and nor would I want you to.

Keep growing Ron , you've developed a long way in the past year, it shows in your writing. Last year I would not have read your post, but now you are a different person. Sound familiar ?

[bristolborn_and_red]

I believe, in Christianity, to get to the Father you have to know the son. So if you don't believe in Jesus Christ, you don't get to heaven. Well thats all the muslims and jews out then

In Islam, there is only one god Allah and Mohammed is his messenger. Although muslims regard Jesus as a prophet they don't believe he died on the cross. Well thats all christians and jews out of heaven then

Jews believe in the Abrahamic god of the Old Testament and have to follow a kosher way of life. Well thats all muslims and christians out of heaven then.

All these three religions supposedly follow the same God. Only one can be right or maybe none at all

[WTFiGO!?!]

There have been men and women throughout history that have stood head and shoulders above their contemporaries. George Orwell is one of them in my opinion.

This man 'knew', and there's no two way's about that.

Georgie O I'm referring too btw Gobby.

Rising Sun?

Believe me Ron your generation is indulged, you have not experienced the hard alternatives, and nor would I want you to.

I would have loved to have written this but would have felt somewhat hypycritical.

There's surely never been a more self indulged materialistic generation than our's?

I believe, in Christianity, to get to the Father you have to know the son. So if you don't believe in Jesus Christ, you don't get to heaven. Well thats all the muslims and jews out then

In Islam, there is only one god Allah and Mohammed is his messenger. Although muslims regard Jesus as a prophet they don't believe he died on the cross. Well thats all christians and jews out of heaven then

Jews believe in the Abrahamic god of the Old Testament and have to follow a kosher way of life. Well thats all muslims and christians out of heaven then.

All these three religions supposedly follow the same God. Only one can be right or maybe none at all

It will be interesting to see what our self professed believer's say about this.

I've heard the view from a strong Christian that the Muslim's are genuinely misguided, I wouldn't want to go to certain places and claim that though, dunno about the Jew's.

Have also heard that Big Boy take's each individual case and decide's on the merit's of the heart not just the head, so presumably allow's for misunderstanding/misguidence etc.

Quite literally though, Gawd knows!?

[Guest bcfcjake]

This man 'knew', and there's no two way's about that.

Georgie O I'm referring too btw Gobby.

Rising Sun?

I would have loved to have written this but would have felt somewhat hypycritical.

There's surely never been a more self indulged materialistic generation than our's?

It will be interesting to see what our self professed believer's say about this.

I've heard the view from a strong Christian that the Muslim's are genuinely misguided, I wouldn't want to go to certain places and claim that though, dunno about the Jew's.

Have also heard that Big Boy take's each individual case and decide's on the merit's of the heart not just the head, so presumably allow's for misunderstanding/misguidence etc.

Quite literally though, Gawd knows!?

does he?, i'll have to ask him sometime

[WTFiGO!?!]

does he?, i'll have to ask him sometime

Go on then......

[Guest bcfcjake]

okey dokey

(oh .... wait , ive forgotten what to say)