mozo Posted May 7, 2006 Report Share Posted May 7, 2006 Go on then:Muslims against terrorMuslim Council of Great BritainDo Muslims Condemn Terror?You can do the rest yourself! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bristolborn_and_red Posted May 7, 2006 Report Share Posted May 7, 2006 Ah, the old selective quotation trick: take a quote out of context and set it apart as a fundamental tenet of the faith. Bristolborn you know fully well that the Torah contains as much religious intolerance as the Quran. Those with long memories or an interest in the Torah will recall how Yahweh frequently levels whole cities without much concern.Anyway, here's an interesting article for those of you with open-minds:Does the Quran sanction violence?Here's the opening section:"You shall destroy all the peoples ... showing them no pity." (7: 16)"... All the people present there shall serve you as forced labour." (20:12)"... You shall put all its males to the sword. You may, however, take as your booty the women, the children, the livestock, and everything in the town -- all its spoil -- and enjoy the use of the spoil of your enemy which the LORD your God gives you." (20:14-15)"... You shall not let a soul remain alive." (20:17)All these quotations are from the part of the Old Testament called the Torah (Deuteronomy), a scripture that is holy to both Jews and Christians.But very few people would sanely suggest that the Torah sanctions violence. The reason of course is that these verses and others much like them are subject to various interpretation and contextual assumptions.So why there is a wide perception that the Qur'an sanctions violence? As for reformist Islam, which you suggest doesn't exist well there seems plenty of it. Just check Wikipedia for a good account of reformist/liberal Islam:WikipediaOf course the Murdoch press and Bristolborn like to pretend these people don't exist.Quite but how many jews and christians are blowing themselves up in packed trains, bars and resteurants. The quran is the actual word of god not for interpretation, you do what it says. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mozo Posted May 7, 2006 Report Share Posted May 7, 2006 Quite but how many jews and christians are blowing themselves up in packed trains, bars and resteurants. If the political climate were reversed maybe they would be.Christians are waging dubious wars, and Jews are persecuting the Palestinians in the eyes of many. Hard-line religious beliefs can corrupt people, Islam is no exception. Fundamentalist Capitalists are doing harm around the world too.I've known plenty of muslims and none have supported terrorism, despite their faith in the Qu'ran. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Batman Posted May 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 7, 2006 Fundamentalist Capitalists are doing harm around the world too.what has this got to do with religion???I suppose if you re going to go on about capitalism being a pain for everyone, how about we mention the 30-50 million people that communism killed in the Soviet Union, (depending on who you read), or the marxist leadership in zimbabwe, or Pol Pot, or the gimps in North Korea and Cuba.Communism has done much worse for the world than capitalism ever could, it's just because America is now the only dominant force in the world now that people criticize them so much.the USA want freedom, democracy human rights and all that malarky, yet they seem the only nation to wanna do something about it. As long as America wants to play the "world policeman" and the Middle East's hatred for western values, there will never be peace, one of the reasons why there is so much islamaphobia in Europe now, which leads to extremist right-wing political parties recieving votes in democratic countries. COURSE, Russia never did anything wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mozo Posted May 7, 2006 Report Share Posted May 7, 2006 what has this got to do with religion???I suppose if you re going to go on about capitalism being a pain for everyone, how about we mention the 30-50 million people that communism killed in the Soviet Union, (depending on who you read), or the marxist leadership in zimbabwe, or Pol Pot, or the gimps in North Korea and Cuba.Communism has done much worse for the world than capitalism ever could, it's just because America is now the only dominant force in the world now that people criticize them so much.the USA want freedom, democracy human rights and all that malarky, yet they seem the only nation to wanna do something about it. As long as America wants to play the "world policeman" and the Middle East's hatred for western values, there will never be peace, one of the reasons why there is so much islamaphobia in Europe now, which leads to extremist right-wing political parties recieving votes in democratic countries. COURSE, Russia never did anything wrong. Again you jump in all guns blazing, eh Dans. I didn't denounce Capitalism. Fundamentalist extremism is the problem. I was pointing out that anything can be taken too far.Muslims are not the only religious/non-religious people doing heinous things in this world, and we should stop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Batman Posted May 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 7, 2006 Again you jump in all guns blazing, eh Dans. I didn't denounce Capitalism. Fundamentalist extremism is the problem. I was pointing out that anything can be taken too far.Muslims are not the only religious/non-religious people doing heinous things in this world, and we should stopbelieve me mozo mate, i could rant all summer about communism, now that would be all guns blazing. This is just the parade lap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Batman Posted May 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 7, 2006 sorry, double post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mozo Posted May 7, 2006 Report Share Posted May 7, 2006 believe me mozo mate, i could rant all summer about communism, now that would be all guns blazing. This is just the parade lap.I'm not a communist, nor do I love capitalism (nor, just to remind you, do I think Bristol should apologise for slavery or think that positive discrimination is the perfect way to combat inequality!).Every anti-muslim argument offered has been countered and I think it's about time that people realise that demonising muslims is pointless.I think that the BNP will die out and be forgotten. Can't wait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Batman Posted May 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 7, 2006 I'm not a communist, nor do I love capitalism (nor, just to remind you, do I think Bristol should apologise for slavery or think that positive discrimination is the perfect way to combat inequality!).Every anti-muslim argument offered has been countered and I think it's about time that people realise that demonising muslims is pointless.I think that the BNP will die out and be forgotten. Can't wait. the same was being said about the Catholics in the 70's and 80's during the IRA bombings, everyone feared them, jokes were made etc etc, but it wernt seen as racist, how does that work??I cant see the BNP dying out for a long while though, which is a bugger. I think they've made a mark in some areas of society now and they've reached out to people who the goverment have ignored. The Al-Queda bombings have helped their cause, but they aint as popular as the media are making out, (after all, apparently the media are too islamaphobic), yet 44 out of all the seats (not sure how many) aint that great, and the media have over-hyped their postion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mozo Posted May 7, 2006 Report Share Posted May 7, 2006 the same was being said about the Catholics in the 70's and 80's during the IRA bombings, everyone feared them, jokes were made etc etc, but it wernt seen as racist, how does that work??I cant see the BNP dying out for a long while though, which is a bugger. I think they've made a mark in some areas of society now and they've reached out to people who the goverment have ignored. The Al-Queda bombings have helped their cause, but they aint as popular as the media are making out, (after all, apparently the media are too islamaphobic), yet 44 out of all the seats (not sure how many) aint that great, and the media have over-hyped their postion.The 70s and 80s were pre-political correctness. One of the good things about PCness is that people have to be careful not to exacerbate the friction between some muslims and non-muslims in this country.I can safely say that if the BNP came to any prominence in this country I'd jump ship and move abroad (they don't have any crazy right-wingers in Hawaii, surely?!). I don't think that'll happen though, particularly if some day soon party politics get's the shake-up needed to regain some sort of interest with the common man. The current trend of wrestling over the floating voter by offering almost identical policies is taking the pish out of democracy and must be stopped. The plight of British muslims is one that I have a lot of empathy for. Creating friction between muslims and non-muslims is exactly what the fundamentalist mentalists wanted all along. It looks like some people have fallen into that trap when it is something that we have to transcend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagest Posted May 7, 2006 Report Share Posted May 7, 2006 believe me mozo mate, i could rant all summer about communism, now that would be all guns blazing. This is just the parade lap.Hmm, I'm almost tempted to take you up on that offer. I'm not sure that the label 'Communism' is adequate to describe the internal development of countries like Russia, China etc. I think it probably has as much to do with Marxist/Leninist brand and the political contexts in which those states evolved.I don't buy the Communism = evil formula myself.Anyway, perhaps that's something for another thread.the USA want freedom, democracy human rights and all that malarky, yet they seem the only nation to wanna do something about it.I certainly don't buy that either.As for the BNP, I think they will be around as long as they have fertile ground to work upon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bristolborn_and_red Posted May 7, 2006 Report Share Posted May 7, 2006 Excellent news, but being the cynic I am, could you show me some proof of that statement please.I think he means these clerics.Denouncing terrorists Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mozo Posted May 7, 2006 Report Share Posted May 7, 2006 I think he means these clerics.Denouncing terroristsI posted the links that I was referring to. There are many more such nuggets of evidence of muslims denouncing terrorism. I'd imagine that you will refuse to acknowledge their existence though, because that would require acceptance that muslims are actually normal people like us and only a tiny fragmented minority have any kind of nefarious intent.It's worth pointing out that one of Britains most famous muslims, young boxing prodigy Amir Khan, has happily denounced terror. He, for me, is an inspiration to all British people, and happens to be a dedicated follower of Islam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bristolborn_and_red Posted May 7, 2006 Report Share Posted May 7, 2006 I posted the links that I was referring to. There are many more such nuggets of evidence of muslims denouncing terrorism. I'd imagine that you will refuse to acknowledge their existence though, because that would require acceptance that muslims are actually normal people like us and only a tiny fragmented minority have any kind of nefarious intent.It's worth pointing out that one of Britains most famous muslims, young boxing prodigy Amir Khan, has happily denounced terror. He, for me, is an inspiration to all British people, and happens to be a dedicated follower of Islam.Ah yes the free muslims coalition who organinsed a march against terror last year in Washington DC. Approx 50 turned up.The muslim council of Britain whos leader is sir iqbal sarcranie who reckoned death was too good for salman rushdie. It also issued a fatwa after the london bombings quoting 5.32 from the quran. Lovely verse until you put it together with quran 5.33 and i get accused of quoting out of context. Jeez. Then they condemn the killing of innocents. Who are the innocents. Why not just condemn killing full stop.Your 3rd website has numerous muslim organisations if you delved deeper would show a different face including CAIR who have had officials convicted of terrorist activity and are linked to Hamas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagest Posted May 7, 2006 Report Share Posted May 7, 2006 Do you know what? Talking to Bristolborn is like talking to some brainwashed fundamentalist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Batman Posted May 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 7, 2006 Do you know what? Talking to Bristolborn is like talking to some brainwashed fundamentalist. so because someone disagrees with ya, that gives you the right to starting saying 5h17 like that?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagest Posted May 7, 2006 Report Share Posted May 7, 2006 so because someone disagrees with ya, that gives you the right to starting saying 5h17 like that??Yeah, it's called freedom of speech. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Batman Posted May 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 7, 2006 Yeah, it's called freedom of speech.but you commies don't believe in that. FREEDOM OF SPEECH...He's got as much right to say what he thinks as you do. don't result to name calling, for gods sake, we aint at school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagest Posted May 7, 2006 Report Share Posted May 7, 2006 but you commies don't believe in that. - An instance of name callingdon't result to name calling, for gods sake, we aint at school. - Dankin, I'm worried about dropping university standards. They just seem to let anyone in these days - especially at Wolverhampton Polytechnic. You don't know what I believe in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mozo Posted May 7, 2006 Report Share Posted May 7, 2006 You don't know what I believe in.You're certainly a dark horse, you don't even fall for the whole Trevor the giraffe movement that is so prevalent in these parts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Batman Posted May 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 7, 2006 - An instance of name calling - Dankin, I'm worried about dropping university standards. They just seem to let anyone in these days - especially at Wolverhampton Polytechnic. You don't know what I believe in. , we aint been a poly for about 11 years now, yeh ok, we're crap overall, i'll admit that, but i love it here, so do all the students, believe it or not, we have 24,000. that's quite a load for a crap uni. considering that my cousin goes to cardiff and they got similar numbers there. (so he tells me). i don't know what you believe in, i never said i do and i don't care to be frank, but questioning somebody's education just over the sake of summot as small as this is rather pathetic to be honest. and if you could learn to spell my name right then that would be a start. anyhow, this aint the problem here, we've side-tracked a tad from what is important, which is the rise of right-wing extremists in GB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mozo Posted May 7, 2006 Report Share Posted May 7, 2006 1/ i don't know what you believe in, i never said i do2/ what is important, which is the rise of right-wing extremists in GB.1/ Actually you declared him a 'commie' 2/ That's no way to speak about Bristolborn_and_red and Bucksred!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagest Posted May 7, 2006 Report Share Posted May 7, 2006 , we aint been a poly for about 11 years now, yeh ok, we're crap overall, i'll admit that, but i love it here, so do all the students, believe it or not, we have 24,000. that's quite a load for a crap uni. considering that my cousin goes to cardiff and they got similar numbers there. (so he tells me). i don't know what you believe in, i never said i do and i don't care to be frank, but questioning somebody's education just over the sake of summot as small as this is rather pathetic to be honest. and if you could learn to spell my name right then that would be a start. anyhow, this aint the problem here, we've side-tracked a tad from what is important, which is the rise of right-wing extremists in GB.You're right Dankin. Anyway, I've had enough toying with you for now. It feels like I'm torturing a small dog and I'm not cruel by nature.Haven't you realised Dankin? Bristolborn is right, we just need to nuke every Muslim and burn every Qu'ran. Then when we finished with them we need to go after the Commies again because they're showing an alarming tenedency to do things their own way in Latin America.After that, I personally feel the Hindus need a lesson, all that polytheistic crap is an insult to God. Of which there is only one, one I say Ashley. I mean it says so in the Bible, so it must be right musn't it?I'm not so sure who should be the new bogeyman after them, but I'm thinking that anyone with a large hooter needs to fall in line with the Western way and reduce their hooter size to a size that is more sympathetic to Western values. Unfortunately, this means the Jews could be in for it some time or later because both Christians and Muslims seem to think they have big hook noses.What do you think?you don't even fall for the whole Trevor the giraffe movement that is so prevalent in these parts.I'm sorry Moz, but I've always felt that Trevor has come between us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flaxbourton Red Posted May 7, 2006 Report Share Posted May 7, 2006 What I don't like is the stereotyping attached to stories about Muslims. Of course I don't like the fundamentalists they're as wacky as they come, but I can't accept the typical portrayal of Muslims presented in the Murdoch media circus. And to try and claim Islam is fundamentally evil is complete hogwash.Are you saying islamic fundementalism is wacky rather than evil?Oliver Cromwell's English Republican regime taught us to be tolerant of our fellow Englishman's religious beliefs lest they be that of the 'God' King/Queen cult i.e. the Church of England - the only church that was banned under the period of the Commonwealth and Protectorate. "By 1646 King Charles was holed up in Oxford under siege by Cromwell's army and the worst of the fighting was soon to be over with defeat for the Royalists. In December 1648, the 'Council of Mechanics' of the new Commonwealth voted for a toleration of various religious groups, including the Muslims. The next year, in 1649, the first English translation of the Qur'an, by Ross, was printed. It had two imprints, attesting to a wide circulation, "notwithstanding", says Matar, "the inaccuracy of the translation or the bigotry of the translator". Following the regicide in 1649, sole authority now rested with Cromwell, 'Lord Protector'. Reference to Islam and Muslims was part of the discourse of the times. Cromwell's enemies attacked the revolutionaries for their disrespect of parish priests and rejection of the 'High Anglican' official tenets: "And indeed if Christians will but diligently read and observe the Laws and Histories of the Mahometans, they may blush to see how zealous they are in the works of devotion, piety and charity, how devout, cleanly and reverend in their Mosques, how obedient to their Priests, that even the Great Turk himself will attempt nothing without consulting his Mufti". The revolutionaries, according to their critics, followed their own self-declared religious authorities, while even the Sultan heeded the advice of the Mufti on religious matters. Other writers who were unsympathetic to the revolution compared the 'Professours of Religion' amongst the Turks with 'the Puritans' of Cromwell. In Cromwell's camp there were men like the remarkable Henry Stubbe, scholar in Latin, Greek and Hebrew and friend of Pococke, the first professor of Arabic in Oxford. According to or own contemporary (English) Muslim scholar in Cambridge, Abdal Hakim Murad, Stubbe "had sided with Parliament during the civil war, holding, with Cromwell, that the righteous man may sometimes justly bear the burden of the sword. An admirer of Cromwell, he became an admirer of the Prophet". Stubbe's circle must have known his private views on Muslims and Islam, which could not be publicly disclosed at the time: "their articles of faith are few and plain, whereby they are preserved from schisms and heresies, for although' they have great diversity of opinion in the explication of their Law, yet, agreeing in the fundamentals, their difference in opinion do not reach the breach of charity so common among the Christians, who thereby become a scandal to all other religions in the world". At least six manuscripts of Stubbe's book 'An account of the Rise and Progress of Mahometanism, and a Vindication of him and his Religion from the Calumnies of the Christians' circulated in a clandestine manner (not to be published until 1911). Professor Matar believes that Cromwell, and/or his Secretary, John Milton, showed familiarity with the Qur'an in a letter to the ruler of Algiers in June 1656. "Cromwell expected the addressee to abide by the commercial agreements between their two countries because of the nature of Muslim religion: 'We now at this time require the like of you who have declar'd your selves hitherto in all things to be men loving righteousness, hating wrong, & observing faithfulnesse in covenant'. The last words repeat the exact description of Islam as a religion that advocates righteousness and repudiates wrong-doing". Matar rightly concludes that " from sectary to antiquarian to Lord Protector, the Qur'an was a text widely consulted and quoted: it had legitimacy for addressing not only Muslims overseas but Christians in England and the rest of the British Isles". Cromwell's Protestant Commonwealth died with him in 1658, and following the Restoration of the monarchy and the return of Orthodox Anglicanism, the period of toleration ended. All students signing for their BA at Oxford or Cambridge had to attest to an acceptance of the Thirty-Nine Articles of the Anglican Church, which included belief in a Holy Trinity - Father, Son and Holy Ghost, 'one and indivisible, three in one and one in three'. Englishmen who viewed Islam favourably or had rejected Trinitarianism were accused of heresy. Stubbe himself was imprisoned. It is interesting to note that his contemporary at Cambridge, Isaac Newton, who was much influenced by Muslim Arab scholarship (more about this later), placed the offer of the Lucasian Professorship made to him in 1674 at risk by refusing to take holy orders, a mandatory requirement at the time. Newton secretly rejected Trinitarianism (according to his biographer, Michael White, Newton was 'fanatically opposed' to the concept of Trinity). Fortunately for science, King Charles II granted him a special dispensation and all subsequent holders of the chair were exempted from holy orders."Source: http://www.salaam.co.uk/bookshelf/iinbritain.htmlYou'd go down a storm in ireland, Cromwell the mercifull?Cromwell tolerates muslims but murders huge swathes of roman catholics? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bristolborn_and_red Posted May 7, 2006 Report Share Posted May 7, 2006 Another moderate voice silenced.More from the religion of peace.Normal, wacky or evil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagest Posted May 7, 2006 Report Share Posted May 7, 2006 Are you saying islamic fundementalism is wacky rather than evil?I'm not really saying it's one or the other for sure, especially as both are relative and abstract concepts.I can definitely say I wouldn't want to live under it though.In fact I'm going to pray to Allah so that it never happens.Here goes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mozo Posted May 7, 2006 Report Share Posted May 7, 2006 Another moderate voice silenced.More from the religion of peace.Normal, wacky or evilI've got an idea bud, why don't you collate every piece of news that reflects negatively on Muslims which we can ignorantly assume accurately reflects all muslims and duly hate them. You're fooling no one mate, get over yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flaxbourton Red Posted May 7, 2006 Report Share Posted May 7, 2006 They would probably cut your fingers off and poke them out of the whole in your neck where your head was for even typing that name.They are not wacky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagest Posted May 7, 2006 Report Share Posted May 7, 2006 Another moderate voice silenced.More from the religion of peace.Normal, wacky or evilYou know that really is very good Bristolborn, but...We may never know who killed Bahjat or why. No one knows who killed her.And:But the manner of her death testifies to the breakdown of law, order and justice Oh, I wonder how that happended?They would probably cut your fingers off and poke them out of the whole in your neck where your head was for even typing that name.Why would they do that?And if you insist on getting involved in a semantic argument then I present my case:Wacky: Eccentric or irrational; Crazy; sillyDictionary.ComAre they not any of those things? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mozo Posted May 7, 2006 Report Share Posted May 7, 2006 Good debating guys. Just to recap, it seems we've identified the following to be true:1/ There is a disctinct difference between the vast majority of Muslims (benevolant) and the fundamentalists/terrorists minority(malevolant).2/ That muslim clerics and famous faces have publicly denounced fundamentalism/terrorism.3/ That the BNP are a malevolent force.4/ Dagest is neither a commie or a Trevist (which of course he should be).Glad that's resolved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.