5 Years On

[The Batman]

Yep, on monday is the 5th Anniversary of the World Trade Centre attacks, i can't believe it, it seemed like yesterday we were told about it in our 6th form.

the firemen (always brings a tear to the eye.

2nd plane

But is it too soon to have made movies about it, ie World Trade Centre & United 93??

[Stoke_Gifford_Red]

I can't believe it was 5 years ago, seems a lot more recent than that. Thing I always remembered was a kid from the class (must have been in Year 9 then) was taken out of the class to go home with his family, and this happened about 5 mins before the end of the day. Obviously we all found this strange, but none of us knew what was going on (I later learnt teachers did but they were instructed not to tell the younger children what was going on at such a late time in the day). Definately a big shock when I got home later and foudn out what was going on.

[Guest MaloneFM]

When it comes to films begin made about recent events with the happening in America it was just a case of the right script at the right time.

This is where the feline gets let loose among the feathers.

I could be wrong on the number but pretty close. 3,000 died on september 11th. 6,000 died in bombing raids on Afghanistan when it was fully known that the terrorists on the plane were Saudis. The only planes in the skies after it were the Bin Laden family leaving the US. Being escorted by American fighters.

I'm not defending what anyone did on that day. Except for the emergency services. But America had the moral high ground until Bush opened his gob and unleashed the military.

And now back to your usual program of vulgar humour.

[Hoops]

Bush and B Liar are the biggest terroists in the world.

I watched the docu/drama last night and i haunted me but until Big T and Double ya are sucking up this will happen again.

[solo1bc]

The tragedy that has compounded the tragedy of 9/11 is that I believe we had a real opportunity to address 'WHY' there was such hatred taking such a horrible form and move forward in a peaceful way.

The whole world had the deepest sympathy with the US at that point and efforts should have been made to address the root of the problem. For the first time in decades, those efforts would have been gladly met by almost everyone.

Instead, nobody bothered to ask why and instead focused on how (to serve their own agenda in my opinion) this had happened.

5 years on in the 'endless' war on terror and STILL nobody in power bothers to address the real questions.

How can you defeat terrorism without social justice?

If someone with a box of matches, a bottle of shampoo or a backpack is a threat then how the hell else do you plan to defeat it?

By replying with terror in turn? Removing all civil liberties until you know where EVERYONE is at all times? Arresting people of a certain religion on sight? More cameras? Police with semi-automatics? ID Cards? Microchips?!

This is all assuming you don't buy into the more far out conspiracy theories (which if you do the research have real credence) out there that 9/11 was in fact orchestrated as a pretext for the reasons above or at the very least allowed to happen.

I'm sure everyones thoughts are with the families of those lost on 9/11 this week or on service in this bullshit 'war' but I just hope that as many thoughts are with those familes in Afghanistan, Iraq, Palestine & Lebanon who have also suffered in the 5 years since.

Unfortunately, I doubt that though I'm afraid.

[Flaxbourton Red]

Yes, bow down to terrorism, its all our fault, we deserved it.

Those Naughty westerners forcing me to put on this itchy bomb vest, if only I could get rid of the jews.

Its SO unfair, i think I'm going to blow myself up.

THERE that will teach them!

[robins72]

Saw an interesting programme called Plane Site which my husband found on the net. It will open your eyes to what happened that day. AA plane? Nope cargo one. ANd as for the PEntagon being hit by a plane you got to be joking it was missied!!! Conspiracy theory maybe but theres too many cover ups if you ask me.

[Stoke_Gifford_Red]

Saw an interesting programme called Plane Site which my husband found on the net. It will open your eyes to what happened that day. AA plane? Nope cargo one. ANd as for the PEntagon being hit by a plane you got to be joking it was missied!!! Conspiracy theory maybe but theres too many cover ups if you ask me.

I always wonder about these conspiracy theories. If it really was a missile and a cargo plane, what happened to the original passenger planes, not to mention the passenegers on them.

[robins72]

I always wonder about these conspiracy theories. If it really was a missile and a cargo plane, what happened to the original passenger planes, not to mention the passenegers on them.

God knows but there was no signs of any of the plane at the Pentagon. Maybe they shot them down over the sea. The planes that hit the Twon Towers didnt have windows and lots of witnesses have confirmed that.

[Flaxbourton Red]

What time are the X files on?

[Stoke_Gifford_Red]

God knows but there was no signs of any of the plane at the Pentagon. Maybe they shot them down over the sea. The planes that hit the Twon Towers didnt have windows and lots of witnesses have confirmed that.

I haven't actually heard the one about cargo plane but have heard the one about the missile. The problem with the missile theory is that people actually claimed to have seen the plane fly into the building. Also for there to be such a conspiracy would require many people in the US government/military to know, and talks of such things happening seems to me to be stupid, as I can't imagine all of the people, many of whom have served their country well in the military, would like to see their own civilians get hurt.

[tinman-is-god]

God knows but there was no signs of any of the plane at the Pentagon.

Apart from the eye witness accounts from citizens on the ground? I would imagine it would be fairly hard to imagine a plane crashing into a building, especially given the fact that all eye witnesses that were spoken to confirmed that they say a plane did crash.

[robins72]

Apart from the eye witness accounts from citizens on the ground? I would imagine it would be fairly hard to imagine a plane crashing into a building, especially given the fact that all eye witnesses that were spoken to confirmed that they say a plane did crash.

Well maybe you should watch the programme then. The dimensions of the plane do not fit where the building split. If it was a plane that crashed the heat would melt everything thats inside the Pentagon. there was a computer on a filing cabinet untouched and a book on a table without a singe to it. Wierd that

[solo1bc]

Yes, bow down to terrorism, its all our fault, we deserved it.

Those Naughty westerners forcing me to put on this itchy bomb vest, if only I could get rid of the jews.

Its SO unfair, i think I'm going to blow myself up.

THERE that will teach them!

OR

Create more terrorists everytime you kill an innocent family trying to kill the existing one.

Completely ignore the reason that these lunatics 'strap a bomb to themselves' in the first place.

Ignore the lies and half-truths presented by our government to take us into an illegal war.

Bomb entire countries to punish a 'few' extremists.

Now THAT will teach them!

PS. Nobody is saying that people are being forced into being a suicide bomber but how the hell do you propose to defeat someone willing to do that with our current 'tactics'??

[solo1bc]

I always wonder about these conspiracy theories. If it really was a missile and a cargo plane, what happened to the original passenger planes, not to mention the passenegers on them.

I think the missile theory is a smokescreen or just a mistake personally.

I've seen info that makes me doubt that it was a plane and info that makes me think that it was so....?

The real quandry is:

• The collapse of the twin towers (despite defying all laws of physics and construction known to man!)
• The collapse of Building 7 (which would be the THIRD buiding in HISTORY to collapse becuase of a fire - the other two being the twin towers!!)
• The collapse of building 5 (same as above and also conveniently contained CIA, DoD & Secret Service headquarters)
• The recorded transmissions from multiple firefighters explaining that the fires were under control
• The secondary explosions that were recorded on the day but everyone stopped mentioning the day after
• The illegal shipping of the scrap steel before the 911 investigation even started
• The convenient discovery of one of the hijackers passports amongst thousands of tonnes of debris one day later (similar to London 7/7)

These are not far out wacky theories. Anyone can discover this with a bare minimum of research and at the very least I believe they deserve answers and proper scrutiny.

I've said it a long, long time ago on this forum but the best way in my opinion to judge the credence of any conspiracy theory is to look at who benefits.

The answer in this case is the far right neo-conservatives in America (Patriot Act, Enemy Combatant Act, Weapons Sales, Iraq Oilfields, Afghanistan pipeline etc. etc.)

People may say that Al Qaida benefited with increased support but it's the 'reaction' to 9/11 which has done that and if we'd reacted differently to 9/11 I don't believe there would even be an Al Qaida to speak of today.

Granted, I am left wing & I automatically distrust the 'party line' fed to me by any government so I encourage anyone with doubts to just do a little research themselves.

[Flaxbourton Red]

PS. Nobody is saying that people are being forced into being a suicide bomber but how the hell do you propose to defeat someone willing to do that with our current 'tactics'??

Yes we should sit down with the terrorists and listen to them for they have something to teach us.

Poor little suicidal mass-murderers giving up their lives for the good of islam.

We are so wicked in the west. How many more sacred explosions will it take before we see the error of our ways?

As for 9/11, it was all concocted by the CIA in an attempt to sully the good name of islamism.

[annanimo]

People may say that Al Qaida benefited with increased support but it's the 'reaction' to 9/11 which has done that and if we'd reacted differently to 9/11 I don't believe there would even be an Al Qaida to speak of today.

Granted, I am left wing & I automatically distrust the 'party line' fed to me by any government so I encourage anyone with doubts to just do a little research themselves.

Hello again, comrades. After an absense from these boards I have been encouraged to come back.

I see my friend BenSolo01 is still around!

About 9/11 - and I do not entirely reject the conspiracy theorists - surely the most important thing is the human dimension?

The thousands who died and their families, along with the untold multitudes suffering as a direct effect of the euphemistically termed "war on terror", are the victims. And it should be the victims with whom our sympathies lie.

However, five years have passed - but has anyone learned? Has the right wing US government considered the effect its foreign policy is having on the world? Has the West stopped to think about the likely ramifications of continued action in areas where its presence is resented? Has anyone actually tried to address the root problem - that of why there are people to whom al Qaeda is attractive, for whom suicide bombing is seen as a positive action? It doesn't take a professor in Sociology to comprehend that the "war on terror" is going to incite further hatred of the "west", its policies and its perceived ambitions.

I remember the moment five years ago when the second plane went into the tower and I suddenly realised the enormity of what was happening. I still find it terrifying. And I struggle to come to terms even now with why such a thing happened, how it was allowed to happen and how people could be so filled with hate as to carry out such an attack. But it the understanding that is important. By understanding, I don't mean empathy, but a realisation of the factors that provoke "militant" muslims (or anyone else) to commit such atrocities.

I personally believe there is something very suspect about the whole thing, being perfectly timed to justify the direction of US foreign policy. It also created a convenient bogeyman in al Qaeda (the idea these militant islamic fundamentalists were in league with the secularist Saddam Hussein was laughable). But this isn't the main point.

Five years on, the world is a more dangerous place. Is that because of al Qaeda or George Bush?

Why have no lessons been learnt? The hardest thing for myself to understand is the way Bush, Blair et al have been relentless in pursuing policies that, rather than isolating extremism, are likely to increase support for groups like al Qaeda, disenfranchise young muslims at home and facilitate distrust. The legacy of 9/11 is to be found in the destructive consequences of misguided US/UK foreign policy. Terrorism can not be defeated with counter-terrorism. What has been needed is increased dialogue between "islamic"/western governments and between various religious and ethnic communities here in the UK. Unfortunately this has been limited and the result has been increased uneasiness and tension rather than a collective co-operation.

The saddest thing is that a terrorist attack on a similar scale to 9/11 is more likely rather than less. If this isn't an indictment of Bush and Blair's counter-productive "war on terror" I don't know what is.

[Flaxbourton Red]

oh yes i forgot, fighting terrorism is always counter-productive,

because if we fight back we are bound to create more terorists and eventually lose to their blood thirsty demands;

after all, the IRA now have a united Irish republic after we gave in to their bombing

Isreal has been defeated and no longer exists thanks to the successfull PLO

The Red army faction have created a communist workers paradise in west germany.

Mybion glyndowr or what ever it is has an independent wales free from english holiday homes.

Is this the case; You bomb me, I listen to you?

[hilltop red]

"A tree is solid, whereas building is mostly air or empty space; only about 10 percent is solid material. Since there is no solid stump underneath to force it to the side, the building cannot tip over. It could only collapse upon itself."

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID...r=2&catID=4

[annanimo]

oh yes i forgot, fighting terrorism is always counter-productive,

no it isn't.

It's how one fights terrorism.

Fighting terrorism with more of the same is counter-productive.

The IRA's demands were hardly defeated by the UDA, UFF et al, but by a combination of political processes and the IRA's realisation that there were alternative means to achieve their goals. Thatcher stood up to terrorists, not by bombing Ireland but by refusing to surrender to their demands. Even after the Brighton bombing the Tory government did not resort to the same tactics of the current Blair administration.

Terrorism is a threat. But turning muslims into convenient bogeymen doesn't help anyone. To misquote Blair, terrorism is dealt with by being tough on the causes of terrorism!

The Israeli issue you bring up is a fine example of why using terrorist means to "defeat" terrorism will bring suffering but no solutions. Hezbollah is hardly defeated in spite of the machinery of the Israeli military being used against it.

[Flaxbourton Red]

Islamists are bogeymen.

They are murdering scum that should be hunted down.

and yes I do make the distinction between islam and islamism.

[bucksred]

I think the missile theory is a smokescreen or just a mistake personally.

I've seen info that makes me doubt that it was a plane and info that makes me think that it was so....?

.

Granted, I am left wing & I automatically distrust the 'party line' fed to me by any government so I encourage anyone with doubts to just do a little research themselves.

I'm not a right winger, but I am anti terrorist, Ben. I too have done some research, mainly people I know form different places, and THEY (and they aint Yanks, right wingers et al, just professionals) don't buy the conspiricy theories which are so popular in Arab, Muslim, and anti war circles.

It wasnt a bomb, definitely not a missile (Seen the security video at the gate?), and anyone really seen what a fully loaded passenger jet with a max trans continental fuel load can do when it impacts? I've seen a Harrier jump jet completely flatten a substantial German farm house when it crashed after a fatal system fault shortly after take of. The debris spread itsself over about 1km square distance, and the house was gone. This jet was carrying NO munitions either, and a max fuel load, in a clean configuration, thats to say no drop tanks etc etc. And the only bit of the poor sod flying it was a foot encased in flying boot

I'm no Yank lover, and they have made a serious number of major errors in their post 9/11 behaviour, in every department, including managing to almost isolate themselves from their allies, and friends worldwide, which in itsself is a major acheivement, but the outlandish theories I've heard/seen/read about are so out of touch with reality , its not true.

Remember a huge chunk of comms, radar tracking, flight plans are not just open to the US military/et al, but open books to various allies though things like NATO etc etc. And the anoracs who monitor this stuff, let alone Russian, Red Chinese intelligence agencies, who are hostile to the US. They could and would drop the US in it, if they really did pull any strokes like that. And allied governments who have this info, who are anti Bush etc (France & Germany) would do likewise, or whistleblowers in the US, and elsewhere.

Their stupidity in blowing the wealth of goodwill following 9/11, is not in doubt, the conspiricy theories certainly are

[Flaxbourton Red]

The Israeli issue you bring up is a fine example of why using terrorist means to "defeat" terrorism will bring suffering but no solutions. Hezbollah is hardly defeated in spite of the machinery of the Israeli military being used against it.

isreal has defended itself well against terrorism using counter-terrorist means. I was refering to the failure of the PLO to achive anything.

Hezbollah are more of a threat to Israel than any recent terrorist organisation. They are more similar to a state within a state. They were well trained and armed by the Iranians. They still are. No they have not been defeated, they have not won either. Israel still exists. As for solutions, there are none, except if you attack israel, israel will attack you, so, better walk like an Egyptian and leave Israel alone.

[Guest MaloneFM]

ANd now back to our advertised thread...9/11 five years on...innit a shame.

[zookeeper]

Five years on, the world is a more dangerous place. Is that because of al Qaeda or George Bush?

Why have no lessons been learnt? The hardest thing for myself to understand is the way Bush, Blair et al have been relentless in pursuing policies that, rather than isolating extremism, are likely to increase support for groups like al Qaeda, disenfranchise young muslims at home and facilitate distrust. The legacy of 9/11 is to be found in the destructive consequences of misguided US/UK foreign policy. Terrorism can not be defeated with counter-terrorism. What has been needed is increased dialogue between "islamic"/western governments and between various religious and ethnic communities here in the UK. Unfortunately this has been limited and the result has been increased uneasiness and tension rather than a collective co-operation.

The saddest thing is that a terrorist attack on a similar scale to 9/11 is more likely rather than less. If this isn't an indictment of Bush and Blair's counter-productive "war on terror" I don't know what is.

It's nice to see a voice of reason return to these pages.

I was slightly disgusted today to hear a snippet of a speach from some White House guy about how the USofA is a safer place and that they have had no major attack. Well thanks Team America but your bully boy antics may have benefitted you but the countrys run by your lapdogs haven't fared so well.

[bransonmo]

I was sitting on the toilet in Branson Missouri, when my daughter in law in Australia rang about the twin towers. After a quick wipe I checked the TV, and observed the mass murder in progress.

This situation had been predicted by military and political friends for several years, reality had arrived.

The world has been building towards a classic Christian v Islamic confrontation....again. It wont go away, and those who cant see it have blinkered vision.

Open your eyes, see whats coming, and be prepared in the best way you can. I feel sorry for my grandchildren who have major conflict to come.

[JJ365]

[Guest MaloneFM]

[Hug A Tree]

I think the missile theory is a smokescreen or just a mistake personally.

I've seen info that makes me doubt that it was a plane and info that makes me think that it was so....?

The real quandry is:

• The collapse of the twin towers (despite defying all laws of physics and construction known to man!)
• The collapse of Building 7 (which would be the THIRD buiding in HISTORY to collapse becuase of a fire - the other two being the twin towers!!)
• The collapse of building 5 (same as above and also conveniently contained CIA, DoD & Secret Service headquarters)
• The recorded transmissions from multiple firefighters explaining that the fires were under control
• The secondary explosions that were recorded on the day but everyone stopped mentioning the day after
• The illegal shipping of the scrap steel before the 911 investigation even started
• The convenient discovery of one of the hijackers passports amongst thousands of tonnes of debris one day later (similar to London 7/7)

These are not far out wacky theories. Anyone can discover this with a bare minimum of research and at the very least I believe they deserve answers and proper scrutiny.

I've said it a long, long time ago on this forum but the best way in my opinion to judge the credence of any conspiracy theory is to look at who benefits.

The answer in this case is the far right neo-conservatives in America (Patriot Act, Enemy Combatant Act, Weapons Sales, Iraq Oilfields, Afghanistan pipeline etc. etc.)

People may say that Al Qaida benefited with increased support but it's the 'reaction' to 9/11 which has done that and if we'd reacted differently to 9/11 I don't believe there would even be an Al Qaida to speak of today.

Granted, I am left wing & I automatically distrust the 'party line' fed to me by any government so I encourage anyone with doubts to just do a little research themselves.

Great post and something I think needs to be understood by so many people. A great documentary has been produced called Loose Change and is a must watch. Follow the link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRd-iA8v89I...ted&search=, it is in three parts and is compelling viewing, is explains all the conspiracy theories and these theories are all backed up with evidence that is widely available.

[Flaxbourton Red]

I don't understand the need for these conspiricy theories. Islamists were responsible for 9/11. They are more than capable of causing such atrocities. They took great delight in the slaughter of so many people.

They would also take great delight in slaughtering the people contributing to and reading this forum, unless you converted, even then if it was for the greater good of Islam, you might be slaughtered anyway.

As for those that want to talk to Osma in order to prevent more bloodshed, you remember Norman kember don't you?